NASA and Mars missions - what I don't understand

I just don't get it. As it stands, the problems with low/no gravity are massively detrimental to humans, indeed if the new launcher and crew capsule were actually used, by the time the astronauts got to mars they wouldn't have the physical capability to even get out of the capsule, let alone explore. Even with exercise machines, long term low gravity is so damaging it seems.
Ah you say, a rotating artificial gravity device would fix that...well unless it were a massive vessel gravity gradients would mess you up, and if it were a massive vessel then because of the added mass, acceleration would be much more difficult, but more importantly slowing down would be that much more difficult. Even then coriolis effects would be awful, I know this from personal experience in a short-arm centrifuge and rotating capsule combo.

The same issues would apply to any long term prospects on the moon.

It is likely that with time and research we can overcome some of these issues, but that is not any time soon. So why are NASA building rockets and capsules for deep space?
Elon musk talking about 2020-2030 is totally unworkable.

Mind you it all works if we send androids. Like the one on ISS at the moment.

references

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a reply to: korkythecat

With VR like the Oculus Rift, maybe we'll send humanoid robots and explore from the comfort of Earth? It sure would be a lot safer to use robotic avatars than actual people.

a reply to: korkythecat

depends on how long the trip to mars will take.. the record is 437 days continuous days in space.. the guy is still alive..

the body will probably just get used to the gravity on mars, coming back to earth's gravity may be a problem for them though, although im no doctor just speculating.. but pretty sure a trip to mars at the moment is a one way trip.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Lol-you read my mind.

I just wish that scientists would hurry up with the whole "transference of human consciousness into a cybernetic organism" thingy.

If it were available-I would be the first to volunteer to go to Mars.

If the human race is to exist for a million years, this is where we started exploring space, the only way to get more knowledge is to do the things we need knowledge about, and maybe in the future the knowledge we got will expand us even further beyond our solar system.

The knowledge we seek has it's sacrifices...

to keep it from being a puke fest a rotating centrifuge needs to be a minimum of 52 meters radius. that is large but you could print the parts out in space with a robotic assembler. honestly you need a large massive ship to provide human comfort and safety for long duration voyages. of course if you can get to mars in like 39 days you can make it with mechanical counter pressure suits. the astronauts could wear the mechanical pressure sleeve as a set of skivvies. set them to resist all movement when the astronauts don't need freedom of motion and dexterity. use bioavailable potassium, manganese and calcium supplements and perhaps even take meds to prevent canibalization of bone mass.

all of these are possible for temporary stays but the biggest problem would be for permanent occupation. that is a one way trip. not because of economics or technical capabilities but because the colonists would likely not survive reaclimitization to earth gravity.

EDIT: well they could. it would require a giant space station in earth orbit with rotational gravity that could gradually speed up from 33 percent Earth gravity to 100 percent earth gravity over a period of a few months to a year.

With something as complex as space/interplanetary travel, there are a tremendous amount of things that have to come together, and it's a given that there will be many unexpected problems that arise. It only makes sense to keep pushing forward in the areas that we can, while working to overcome the challenges and obstacles that are still in front of us. If we were just to sit around until all the problems were worked out and the dangers and the unknowns were all gone, well, we would never even get off the ground.

a reply to: korkythecat

I'm guessing that maybe cryogenics (in the future-if at all possible) is the only logical means of defeating the effects of zero grav.-like for anything further than Mars or the asteroid belt.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

I can confirm this.

I ran the Gravitron at a carnival for a little while-and watched humans vomit out-and then back all over themselves.

Some good times.

originally posted by: FalcoFan
a reply to: korkythecat

I'm guessing that maybe cryogenics (in the future-if at all possible) is the only logical means of defeating the effects of zero grav.-like for anything further than Mars or the asteroid belt.

no. we have propulsion nearing TRL 4 that could get anywhere in the solar system in a reasonably fast time frame.

VASIMR, certain EM drives and M2P2 basically just need a power plant which could be nuclear fission or fusion or even solar.

Fusion is a possibility as there are three or 4 separate design teams at TRL 3++

the VASIMR has a flight time of 39 days to Mars. and one of the EM drives can do it in almost that short a flight time.

The first fusion drives will "merely" quadruple our fastest space probe speeds without including gravity assists. that is fast enough to explore the whole solar system but no where near fast enough to think about manned flight to the nearest stars. but the theoretical top end for fusion is about 35 percent c with more mature technology such as steady state fusion as opposed to intermittent fusion with pellets or something like that.

and then there is progress among even more exotic fronts: www.technologyreview.com...

originally posted by: korkythecat
I just don't get it. As it stands, the problems with low/no gravity are massively detrimental to humans, indeed if the new launcher and crew capsule were actually used, by the time the astronauts got to mars they wouldn't have the physical capability to even get out of the capsule, let alone explore. Even with exercise machines, long term low gravity is so damaging it seems.
Ah you say, a rotating artificial gravity device would fix that...well unless it were a massive vessel gravity gradients would mess you up, and if it were a massive vessel then because of the added mass, acceleration would be much more difficult, but more importantly slowing down would be that much more difficult. Even then coriolis effects would be awful, I know this from personal experience in a short-arm centrifuge and rotating capsule combo.

The same issues would apply to any long term prospects on the moon.

It is likely that with time and research we can overcome some of these issues, but that is not any time soon. So why are NASA building rockets and capsules for deep space?
Elon musk talking about 2020-2030 is totally unworkable.

Mind you it all works if we send androids. Like the one on ISS at the moment.

references

ref one

ref two

ref three

complexity depends on how you design it. look at the centrifuges on the science fiction show Babylon 5's omega class destroyer.

or imagine a couple of milvan or larger sized boxes on a frame set so they can slide out from the central axis of the ship structure to the end of the frame. the frame could be 52 meters long on either side of the ships super structure.

on the ship's super structure is an airtight mating airlock to pass into the ship's non rotating parts from the centrifuge "car"

the super structure has a rotating collar attached to the frame base and a pair of anti torque flywheels with a pass through tunnel in the center. you need flywheels or counter rotating centrifuges to keep the rotation from spinning parts of the ship you do not intend to spin.

the centrifuge can stop rotation and the centrifuge cars return to the ship's mating dock for personnel and material transfers.

Technology Readiness Level designations:

en.wikipedia.org...

i underestimated some of the TRLs in my above posts.

a reply to: FalcoFan

lol so it was you!!

The truth is I drove to the kennedy space centre as a visitor, and as you drive the last bit parallel to cocoa beach there was a kind of space museum on the right hand side, which I stopped at and I just can't remember the name of it, but to cut a long story short I went in and it was deserted, totally...anyway they had this centrifuge and I jokingly said to the only staff member I saw, could I have a go. He said sure!!! OMG you have no idea, there was a button inside to stop the thing if you had to, but the force was so much I couldn't move my arm, it was totally brutal. As luck would have it I also saw one of the mars rovers launch (after three attempts) at night, very memorable, but i digress lol.

3.711 m/s²
Mars, Gravity
Earth
Earth
9.807 m/s²
Moon
Moon
1.622 m/s²
Jupiter
Jupiter
24.79 m/s²

It is one third, not as bad as in space, If underground, heat would increase, gravity would be less. At the poles it should be .5% greater

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there have been year-long stays on the ISS (zero-g), and most Expedition members spend 6 months up there anyway, and are quite capable of walking upon returning to Earth.

I'd imagine a manned Mars mission would feature a couple of day's rehabilitation and adaption to martian gravity.

A one-way trip to Mars would be what, 2 months long? And the crew would have to stay there for the rest of their lives, it seems, because it would be decades or centuries before we can build a rocket launch complex there.

a reply to: korkythecat

They are simply challenges that we humans have to overcome through research, testing and dedication.

Exploration of anywhere has always had dangers, problems and unknowns, going far back in time for us, and yet, we've always found a way.

What we should not do is: Give up. Stop. Turn our backs on the problems.

When we first took to the seas away from our coast lines, the journey was fraught with peril. Lack of navigation, enough food and water was bad enough. For even longer missions, scurvy became a problem.

Yet each of these challenges were over come through determination of the human spirit of wanting to know what was out there.

I have no doubt that when dealing with low, micro, or no gravity, we'll do the same.

a reply to: korkythecat

It was extremely dangerous / detrimental to load people onto a wooden sailing vessel and sip out over the ocean, not knowing whats there coupled with the possibility of falling off the edge of the earth.

Thank God people ignored safety to see whats out there.

'Cause it's next. 'Cause we came out of the cave, and we looked over the hill and we saw fire; and we crossed the ocean and we pioneered the west, and we took to the sky. The history of man is hung on a timeline of exploration and this is what's next.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: korkythecat

With VR like the Oculus Rift, maybe we'll send humanoid robots and explore from the comfort of Earth? It sure would be a lot safer to use robotic avatars than actual people.

Not practical 13 minutes for a signal to travel from the Earth to Mars.

People don't have a good appreciation of the difficulties of dealing with the Red Dust, particularly moving at 300 mph.

We really need to send robotics and nano-mechanisms until we can set up a system of conveyer satellites. Stranding humans on Mars is not a viable plan.