Gun owners - Have you apologised for a spree killing recently?

a reply to: bbracken677

That's nice. What do you think about all Muslims being held responsible for the actions of the terrorists?

a reply to: neformore

Actually I wasn't alluding to any sort of motive or agenda behind your OP. I simply don't feel there is any appropriate analogy to be found here and I feel like the satire falls flat because of the reason I've listed several times now. If you made your analogy in a bubble devoid of any eye towards the motivations of the few compared to the many (which you clearly wanted to do or else you wouldn't have included a CYA disclaimer), then you're analogy works on some levels. Real world, though... motivations matter, they matter a lot, in fact. On one hand you have a very random, disconnected list of motivations behind spree killings... the only common thread tying them together is found in a simple term: "Batcrap crazy." The majority does not share this thread with the minority in any way in those cases. On the other hand you have a much more interconnected, compact list of motivations that actually come directly from the same source as the majority gets their religious motivations from. That thread isn't disconnected, although it thankfully isn't dominating the actions of the majority.

Without that interconnecting thread, I do not believe that we are looking at the same class of variables here.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
On the other hand you have a much more interconnected, compact list of motivations that actually come directly from the same source as the majority gets their religious motivations from. That thread isn't disconnected, although it thankfully isn't dominating the actions of the majority.

Without that interconnecting thread, I do not believe that we are looking at the same class of variables here.

I don't think the motivations are the same at all. The motivation of a peaceful Muslim following Islam is to live a peaceful life, offering love, kindness and mercy to all those around him. He only fights in self-defense. There are plenty of scriptures in the Quran that tell the peaceful Muslim how important this is, and how to do it.

The motivation of the terrorist could be to avenge the death of women and children, or to protest another's country's involvement in their own country, or simply to vent rage at people who are different than themselves. Just like in the Bible, there are some violent passages in the Quran. Taken out of historical context, the terrorist uses them as a warped rationale.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Negative.

I am only responsible for my own actions.

should carpenters apologize for those who kill with hammers? No.

Should golfers apologize for those who kill with golf clubs? No.

Baseball players and bats? Sushi chefs with knives?

should christians grovel because of what the church has done for 2000 years? no.


Most of the stuff done by "muslim /jewish / ect terrorists" are being done by people who may look like them or come from similar areas...that doesnt mean crap.

This isi* crap is a joint union of political factions enlisting the people that are zionists, islamists, and most that are a-religious imho. You can show a little book all you want. Doesnt mean crap.

Its all to get people to hate other people for no other reason than they are told to.

IMHO, i think the mass media should be considered terrorists organizations along with the common players.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
On the other hand you have a much more interconnected, compact list of motivations that actually come directly from the same source as the majority gets their religious motivations from. That thread isn't disconnected, although it thankfully isn't dominating the actions of the majority.

Without that interconnecting thread, I do not believe that we are looking at the same class of variables here.

The motivation of the terrorist could be to avenge the death of women and children, or to protest another's country's involvement in their own country, or simply to vent rage at people who are different than themselves. Just like in the Bible, there are some violent passages in the Quran. Taken out of historical context, the terrorist uses them as a warped rationale.

The wakos in Nigeria have been attacking peaceful Muslims.

a reply to: kaylaluv

First, I am a huge believer in personal responsibility. The people responsible for shooting the Charlie employees are the people who committed the crimes. They made a personal choice to do so, no one strapped a bomb on their backs and told them they had no choice. Perhaps that is an incorrect analogy, but I think you get the idea.

Are some guilty of influencing these individuals? More than likely it appears so, but it does not save the murderers from making the choice of committing those crimes.

What about the moslim family who worships, lives their own lives without threatening or harming anyone else? IMO they are guiltless. They have made choices that result in them living lives of peace.

A problem brought up in allegory was related to the thought police. We cannot know, without evidence, what people will do and I have issues with govts moving in directions that suggest you can be arrested for a crime you might carry out in the future.

I understand the desire to be safe, to make the world safe for myself and others, but there is a slippery slope where if you can arrest an individual for the future crime of terrorism, what is to stop the gov from arresting you for virtually any future crime? Frankly, they could just stick with the terrorist agenda and arrest anyone they want under the guise of this or that individual was "plotting to commit" terrorism.

I do not (NOT) trust our govt to make any right decisions based on concepts of terrorism and safety.

I have severe issues with radical Islam...I think it should be dealt with harshly, but I do not believe this future crime crappola, nor do I believe that all moslims are terrorists. Under the same guise all Blacks like watermelon, all whites are geeks, all police are bad and all...well, I think you get the idea.

a reply to: neformore

It has also taught me that "allegory" must at times be defined, or people will take the story literally. If you are going to use allegory (satire it was not) to make a point, then perhaps some context is necessary. Without context it is an easy thing to take the story literally.

Much in the Lord of the Rings was allegory. Not satire, not analogy. At least, that is my opinion.

a reply to: bbracken677

Great. Then you are in basic agreement with the OP. You see, he was being sarcastic in blaming all gun owners for the actions of the mass shooters. He was using that as an example or parallel of why it's so ridiculous to blame all the peaceful Muslims for the actions of the terrorists, or to demand they apologize for the terrorists, or to demand they run out in the streets to publicly denounce all terrorism, or to accuse them of secretly agreeing with the terrorists if they don't. No, he didn't specifically state that in his OP, but if you have been reading any of the threads about the recent events in Paris, you would have seen several posters claiming these very things, so it would be pretty obvious to see what the OP was attempting to do. If you haven't read any of the threads (or seen anything in the news about Rupert Murdoch's tweet), then I can see where you wouldn't get where the OP was coming from.

P.S. The OP doesn't really think that all gun owners are responsible for the actions of mass shooters. That was the sarcasm part.

All legal gun owners and supporters of 2nd Amendment rights need to apologize for the mass killings.

A lot of these mass killing sprees would never have gotten past the first dead without being shot, if only the supporters of 2nd Amendment rights had fought hard enough to insure more of the public were exercizing these rights instead of trying to take them away.

Yes, gun owners should apologize, and double down on their efforts to increase public participation in this right of all citizens. Only then will there be enough legal gun owners dispersed thru the public to be there when the next event starts, and be available to stop it.

Going the other way by denying these rights will only magnify the death tolls and the frequency of these mass killing events.

a reply to: lakesidepark


Ummm...although your post is not on topic with the thread premise...I wish to address it anyway...(as I also have a post in this thread that was off-topic)...

I don't agree with your statement about who should apologize to whom...
I personally believe that those who pushed for and instituted bans on firearms in certain places have a case of Pontius Pilate's bloody hand syndrome...when it comes to persons on SSRI meds using "gun safe zone's" to play out whatever brain chemical imbalance these medications have caused...

I think that everyone that clamors for curtailing second amendment rights...has an equal share in bloody handedness...

Obviously this is just an opinion...but an opinion verified by the disclaimers on these medication bottles that deal with ideation and studies of lowered crime in open/concealed carry jurisdictions...however...I happen to agree with the rest of your points...even if they were meant to be...satirical...

YouSir

Sorry OP...I know how far off your topic this post strayed...I was not attempting to derail the thread and I know this has nothing to do with your thread premise...
I also want to add that I don't disagree with your thoughts on broad-brushing...I totally agree with your stance on that...
I just don't agree with the method you used to highlight your stance...to me it was disingenuous and specious...and not particularly satirical...

However...thank you for allowing me to play...




YouSir

a reply to: kaylaluv

Really? Why dont you show me how to boil eggs while we are at it.

My first response was a response in like kind. Obviously I had to clarify. When one posts in allegorical stories without any clarification or warning, then of course people are not going to get it. I do not call it sarcasm when the initial post (prior to any context of following posts) has no indication it is "satire" particularly when there are people who think exactly like that. Perhaps that was part of the point, but the OP set people up for fail ,,, perhaps intentionally. Not cool, in my book.

This was precisely why my first response was in the form it was. No indication of allegory and I found it rather hilarious, rather ironic that the OP didn't get it. Tables were turned, no?

If you re-read my post knowing it was in direct reply to the OP, and was in the same form, although differing in viewpoint and more to the point does it, perhaps, make a bit more sense? Or was it just too far out there. I fully expected people to not get it and made it intentionally so.

Yeah, I agree that we should not blame all Islamists for the actions of a few. On the other hand, the actions of a few is resulting in warfare and innocents will die in war. It's the nature of the beast. In that particular case, it stands to reason that moderate Islamists should, perhaps, stand up to the radicals....no?

In the case of France, or the US with "homegrown" terrorists I am of a different mind, in a sense. The actions should be treated as any other murderer, although the opportunity to prevent the actions presents itself and should be utilized within reason. We should never, as a country, as a society, institute the kind of "preventive" measures that makes assumptions regarding a whole people. That kind of thinking led to thousands of Japanese Americans being placed in camps during WWII. No doubt, this prevented the average joe from taking his violent tendencies out on some, but to treat a whole people as that is unconscionable.

With regards to gun ownership, I have never believed that everyone has the right to own a gun.... If you display responsiblitiy in your daily life, then sure....if not, then hell no. Background checks are necessary, not that they will keep guns out of criminal hands... but no checks implies the support for ciminal ownership.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Oh...and just for clarity, I do support responsible gun possession by trained volunteer teachers in schools.

Would beat the hell out of everyone running around defenseless in front of the gunman dying... One teacher, one gun would have saved so many lives in so many school shootings.

The first school shooting (Pearl, MS) was stopped by a teacher with a gun... Funny but since that worked schools were turned into fish in a barrel exercises in target practice (no gun zones).

If you want to protest something, protest the fact that family members can't force a mental health intervention when they know someone's in trouble. There are too many crazies roaming the streets because no one can prove they're dangerous until after the fact. Thanks, ACLU.

a reply to: YouSir

Actually per my understanding, I was being topical in the character of the thread, which started with a satire about wheter gun onwers had apologized for the mass killings (I understood it as tongue-in-cheek as the MSM response to mass killings has always been to blame the laws allowing legal gun ownership).

TO which I responded with my own satire that made the same point a different way from a different angle.

Now...what was you saying? I believe both you and me have agreed with the OP and are indeed on topic.

For the last time, this thread is not about gun control.

a reply to: neformore

ROFL

No, it's about allegory. Wherever you see gun control, insert Islam.

But we are all too stupid to get it.... I think it may actually be allegorical sarcasm, which means it really is about gun control and the Islam angle is a double feint.

I woke up this morning to the tune of one of "The Usual Suspects" beating the drums of racism.

It caused me to ask when Al Sharpton was going to apologize for his brand of Racism. I have come to realize over the years that Al is a racist with a one trick pony so to speak.

Al is in like manner to these daily talk shows ..take away the sex and you have no program. Take away the race and once again you have no program for Al and a handful of others making a living on said program.
In like manner I do not want to look at everyone out here through the prism of sex and sexuality..sexual orientation. When is someone going to apologize for that guilt programming as well. Neither am I interested in that guilt programming in addition to Al's brand or racist guilt programming.

Nonetheless, I saw the Oscar headlines this morning and said to myself..."Ok Al...here we go again with the one trick pony."

Don't get me wrong here..I don't put much stock in the Oscars at all and what some people think is great movie. I also thought Al was scraping the bottom of the barrel in going after the Oscars because of how little I think of Hollywood as a social standard by which to measure our lives. I have long ago gotten past that kind of thinking. I am one of those people who get disgusted going through the checkout stands at many stores and being bombarded by the tabloids. My life is not that idle that I need such vicarious non standards to measure success. But I do note it for what it is. Slick merchandizing and preying on the unthinking. Just like Al and others....seduction.



I don't know about some of you but I am getting tired and disgusted at someone wanting me to view everything I see and think daily through the prism of race and racism. I don't want to live my life through this template and also to be hijacked by someone else's program. I don't think it healthy nor intelligent. But it is predatory.

I do think it subversive and a way of dividing a nation and people..not uniting them. And it seems to be working quite well on those not capable of thinking for themselves.

I am not into such guilt programming and have identified Al and others including the media as engaged in Guilt Programming. Not interested in living my life in this manner.

But I have little hope that Al will apologize for this zealous, devout, rampant, rabid, runaway racism guilt programming. Al is not alone in this guilt programming and expecting others to apologize to him and his program. Also Al certainly seems to have a devout and religious zeal in this programming template.

Wait a minute....isn't Al supposed to be an imam..I mean a minister???

Hmmmmmm...is Al on the edge of promoting violence???? Even indirectly in his religious zeal while being totally silent on other violence ...or racism????

Are people out here noticing that about Al and others addicted to this brand of devout, zealous Racism..and beginning to speak out about it??



What many people notice here in the events around the world is that so many people involved in these killings have been of the Muslim religion. Not the Boy Scouts, or the 4H Club, Rotary's, Protestants, Catholics, Buddhists, etc etc.

This really stands out. People notice it. But what also is noted is the silence of others on this. It has caused many who would otherwise never research it ..to look deeper into the religion and the patterns going on here.
They are asking themselves what it is about this religion which is conducive to such violence and at the same time causes many to be silent on it?? It is sort of a massive Xerox copy...world wide when it seems to go awry.

And they are beginning to take this silence to heart and noticing what is not happening..the other side of the coin so to speak and I mean here with other social guilt programming causes as well. What is not happening.

Well..just my .02 on this with a caveat that "Guilt Programming" does not work on me..thanks to such notorious people as Al and Jesse. I have been watching and observing their pattern of racist operation for to long. It has become predictable and disgusting in its devout, zealous, religious zeal. It is the same thing with other social causes celeb by other groups who specialize in social guilt programming.. even violence...as the default conscience of this country. Not interested...in satire or not.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

Somebody ....Pleasssssseeeeee.........!!!! Somebody Pleaseeeeeee!!! Apologize to me for all this guilt programming going on...on every and any topic!!!!

Guilt Programming for me........but not for thee


Only authorized phobias allowed!!! Only autnorized racism, sexism, Homophobia....et al.

And for everyone else...guilt programming...guilt shame..by professional hacks and pimps in the media as well as special pimps. Even in the public school system carrying the torch for professional guilt programmers and hacks/pimps in lieu of a real education..in teaching people how to think for themselves...only authorized thought/pimping going on.

Somebody pleaseeeeee... apologize to me for all this guilt!!!!

Holding my breath!!! Particularly from our so called leaders in this country.



Thanks to all for their posts,

Orangetom

I protest the latest mass killing with guns or pointed sticks. There, happy now?
a reply to: neformore