I have a question for the freemasons here

ms, I do not completely disagree, as I said it was from a Christian perspective.

But even if you disregard Christianity, there is truth that evil "can" lead to good and vice versa. It may not always, but it can. This is a truth, and a necessary one. You also cannot have good without evil. It is unrealistic to believe otherwise. A God of Wisdom must show us what Evil is for us to know good. Therefore as sick as it sounds, it is good that evil is.Pike knew this to be true and I completely agree. I have believed this before I ever heard of Masonry and Pike, and I belive it now as a Mason.

I believe you to be very intelligent and a good person. I believe you are seeking honest answers to honest questions. Pike is often understood and misunderstood. Therefore obviously very controversial.

Please take my post as the way I see it and not speaking for Masonry.

I wish you well.

[edit on 12/14/2004 by cotwom]

Originally posted by cotwom
ms, I do not completely disagree, as I said it was from a Christian perspective.

But even if you disregard Christianity, there is truth that evil "can" lead to good and vice versa. It may not always, but it can. This is a truth, and a necessary one. You also cannot have good without evil. It is unrealistic to believe otherwise. A God of Wisdom must show us what Evil is for us to know good. Therefore as sick as it sounds, it is good that evil is.Pike knew this to be true and I completely agree. I have believed this before I ever heard of Masonry and Pike, and I belive it now as a Mason.

I believe you to be very intelligent and a good person. I believe you are seeking honest answers to honest questions. Pike is often understood and misunderstood. Therefore obviously very controversial.

Please take my post as the way I see it and not speaking for Masonry.

I wish you well.

[edit on 12/14/2004 by cotwom]

alright. you are not speaking as a mason. fair enough. And I thank you for the respectful engagement.

I think there is a reason for "evil" so I can't argue that. But I won't justify evil by saying its good. Evil sucks, period. In fact just to shift the ground here a bit, I'd say that evil/good are part of a a duality (black/white, us/them, good/evil) that is part of a technical requirement for our Divine work on this planet but nothing more.

The duality itself is however, in the grander scheme of things, a total illusion. The truth of God and Spirit is Love and Unity. When referencing to that reality it iis important not to "take the name of God in vain" by associating it with the dualities of this earth without serious qualification (although ultimately its all God right)

Now my first assumption is that God is Love and Unity. Now if, according to christian perspective, we are God's children, then what parent would let its children starve to death? The answer is simple, only a very sick parent. Any parent (male or female) that willing allows that to happen while justifying it by reference to a greater good needs rehabilitation and lots of it.

Now from a christian perspective God's love is greater than any human parent right? So now Pike's statements are making even less sense "from a christian perspective" to me.

Now notice here I"m not condeming those who support the duality or benefit from it. I'm saying there is a divine reason for them, the duality, the evil, and all that and a reason why we play the parts that we do in whatever state of awareness we play them in. I guess all I'm saying here is that we shouldn't take God's name in vain while we do our work on this planet and we should be open to the necessity of moving beyond the dualities which inform our existence and make our work possible, but that must, in the short term, be discarded in favour of embracing the Unity that is Spirit.

I mean, when the play is over, we take off our costumes right?

ms






[edit on 14-12-2004 by michaelsharp]

Originally posted by michaelsharp
"they say" that' the way forward in these orders is to openly ask and seek guideance. But I"ve usually found that that only applies if you are willing to follow along with canon and ask the right questions. I've usually found that real questions anc concerns are often met with attacks. Its only those questions that pander to the myths that are allowed in discourse.

As has been shown here so many times, honest answers are given to honest questions. Double-edged questions, attacks veiled as questions, and outright slanderous lies will usually be dealt with in the same manner. "Following along with canon and asking the "right" questions has nothing to do with it.

Case in point: you asked about the "higher Degrees", and you were politely, correctly told that the Third Degree is the highest Degree in Freemasonry. MM concurred as did ML. 3 answers to your question.

You then keep on quoting Pike saying he's writing about the 32nd Degree "The highest Degree in Masonry". Wrong. You chose not to accept the answer, it's not that you didn't ask the "right questions", you ignored the answer you were given. On top of that, technically the 33rd Degree is that LAST (notice I did not say highest) Degree in the SCOTTISH RITE, although it is honorary.

As far as your interpretation of Pike? I'm sure you can find lots of people around here who would happily join in quoting him out of context and ranting on how he worshipped Lucifer, or how he was a Satanist, or how he is responsible for CHIPs being taken off the air. It's a personal thing, you will get out of it what your mind has preconceived unless you open your mind and look at it as a commentary (i.e. PIKE's OPINION), as opposed to the be-all-end-all of Freemasonry.

What I get from it? It more or less says that there is an Almighty God, and all that is is of Him. There is no Evil Entity who is forever at odds with Him. Evil is in the nature of Man, and it gives the Good in this world a chance to flourish by (actively or passively) combating the evil. I kind of agree with cotwom. You can see (if you look at it right) the potential for good in all things that are evil. I think there were some pretty good examples given earlier, though I wouldn't have used Sally Struthers.

I can't wait for the day when I can read a piece of Pike's work and not have to read over it 5 times to make sure I've got it.

So much to study.

I'm enjoying this conversation. Thank you for making me use my brain a bit

From a Christian Perspective an nothing more for a moment.

Christianity teaches that we are here on this earth to be representatives for God, and to preach the gospel, etc. But there is more than just these fleshly trappings. (By the way I can't quote any of this.) We are to look forward to being with our creator in heaven.

So the fact that there are children starving ANYWHERE is horrible and probably a large percentage of the world sadly doesn't care. Now the way I interpret the Bible if you die without being able to hear the Gospel, this is taken into consideration and you will go to heaven. (Yes this is what alot of Christians believe. There are some who don't but oh well.)
So many of these innocent starving children will die because of this evil. But they will be surrounded by good, and no evil can come to them in their afterlife

If we look at other faiths, and these children are of those other faiths, there is the possibility of a better (or worse) afterlife, Nirvana etc. If you don't believe in the afterlife in any sense, then there is a dillema. But I do but belive in a better "life after death". So for now I must accept evil as it comes and neccessary. Do what I can about evil now when I can, if I can and look forward.

Incase you haven't noticed I'm an optimist.

Originally posted by cotwom
Personally I see this quote from a Christian perspective.

Assuming the God of the Bible is true, and the Christian Satan is true, why would God allow Satan ie Evil to exist?
From a Christian POV, God allows evil to bring out the good and bring others to God. So NO evil is not good but it can lead to other good outcomes. Therefore evil does serve a purpose to a God of wisdom and love.

Starving children in you example, bad. What good can come of it?
There are some people who would see this,
try to do something about it,
change their lives for the better because they feel guilty living the life they lead, find religion,

This is how I see it. Good and Evil coexist, Evil is permitted ultimately for Good, and I belive Pike recognized this. I believe this applies to other perspectives other than Christian as well. I think nothing in that passage is offense to the Christian or Otherwise.

Sorry, I tend to go on and on. I hope you understand what I mean. Pike's meanings are not always obvious from the surface, but then again, that's what I get from it.

[edit on 12/14/2004 by cotwom]

As far as I am concerned you have it about right, I was just ready to post this saying you have been reading Pike, then you finish with my punch line and spoiled my witty observation.

www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

For those who wish to take a peek.

Originally posted by billmcelligott


As far as I am concerned you have it about right, I was just ready to post this saying you have been reading Pike, then you finish with my punch line and spoiled my witty observation.

www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

Thank you. I often times have a hard time expressing my thoughts correctly. I hope what I say is coming through properly.

I think you're on the right track cotwom...

I want to read Morals and Dogma, but I feel wierd trying to read it online... I feel like I should be holding a big dog-eared hardcover...

I have a friend who has a copy, she keeps teling me that she will let me borrow it, but she always forgets, now she's packed it away and doesn't know exactly where it is...

I suppose I'll just have to buy my own copy.

I am growing tired of vague explanations by Masons. Masons are a craft not unlike Witchcraft, or Wicca. They believe in a higher level of enlightenment and strive to achieve this higher level of conciousness while keeping the masses unaware. They are meerly a part of the largest secret ever. Mankind is on the brink of a huge evolutionary step of conciousness, a level of the ILLUMINATED. Masons along with other organizations strive to control this level of conciousness to within their societies and other secret societies. They use tools such as Christianity, which is a hoax, as a means to control the masses. Christianity is invented to protect their secret. That is why Christianity teaches against all forms of Witchcraft, Satanism, etc. It is meerly to scare the masses into looking no further, into not seeking any further enlightenment or spiritual growth. To fear what is truly our next step in evolution. An enlightened state, a new level of conciousness. The global elite and secret societies of the world are aware of this next step (have been for centuries) and are trying to manipulate and control what is ultimately mankinds destiny.

I personally am not a Christian so don't take me for a radical, I seek the truth. Will a knowledgeable person (preferably Mason or Illuminati) respond?

The Universality of the Golden Rule in the World Religions

hi ttw2bf,

for spiritual power, its a good start to live by "The Golden Rule".

www.teachingvalues.com...

the_truth_wants_2_B_found:

Please check out this site. Lots of good info.

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

Other Masons have posted on this forum, and you feel they are being vague.

Maybe that site will help. If you don't believe what's on that link (which is alot!), nothing we say will help unless you really do read the articles there WITHOUT preconcieved notions.

I'd say more myself but I don't express my thoughts well.

Do not misunderstand, this is not meant to be an offensive response. I feel you truly are a seeker of truth...

...are you willing to see the truth?

Good luck on your search.

[edit on 12/14/2004 by cotwom]

Originally posted by michaelsharp
Jumping right ahead to The highest degree of Masonry, 32 degree, Master of the Royal secret, PIke seems to be justifiying the evils in this world. That sin and suffering are OK.

Nowhere in M&D does Pike justify evil of any kind. First, it must be remembered that M&D is a book of philosophy, and all philosophers have attempted to answer the following question: If God is all good, why does He allow evil to exist?

Pike throws in his opinions on this question, and tries to understand the existence of evil. But, again, nowhere does he condone evil, he simply acknowledges its existence. Also, it seems rather odd that anyone who has read the book would make such an accusation, especially since Pike spends about 300 pages talking about how it is the duty of all rational creatures, and especially that of Masons, to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and relief the distressed and sick. I could be wrong here (it's happened once before), but it appears to me that the poster either has not read the entire book, or has read it and has ignored its meaning.

Whenever I think of suffering I think of children in sweatshops or other such man made atrocities. Mass starvation because people can't afford to pay for food, the use of DU in munitions, a ruling class that prefers to spend the social surplus in war rather than peace, the floride poisoning of the western mind, and stuff like that. I dont' see anything good in any of those things and I just wonder why the highest degree of masonry provide a justification for that.

And, once more, I say that Pike has addressed practically all of these things in Morals and Dogma, and has condemned them as injustices. If you'd read the book, you should know that. Of course, Pike didn't throw a tangent about flouride in the water because they didn't have it back then. That's why Pike and everyone else in his time had dentures by the time they were 30.

originally posted by The Axeman
Now then, are the N and S Jurisdictions actually geographically separated? I mean, living in the South am I confined to only joining the Scottish Rite under the Southern Jurisdiction? I fully intend to join (SR,SJ) once I become a Mason and have studied to the point that I understand the teachings of Blue Lodge, but is the SJ the only option for me seeing as where I live? I want to see it all... I want to be like Senrak.

Sorry to be repetitive guys, but I think this got overlooked during Pikeapalooza... Funny monkey...

Whenever I think of suffering I think of children in sweatshops or other such man made atrocities. Mass starvation because people can't afford to pay for food, the use of DU in munitions, a ruling class that prefers to spend the social surplus in war rather than peace, the floride poisoning of the western mind, and stuff like that. I dont' see anything good in any of those things and I just wonder why the highest degree of masonry provide a justification for that.

Do you understand why Depleted Uranium is used in munitions?

Do you think someone who's sternum has just ripped open cares if the bullet was lead or depleted uranium or platinum for that matter?

Depleted uranium is used for its armor piercing properties. DU is extremely dense, the added projectile core weight and density allows rounds made from it to punch through armor easier.

I don't want to start a conversation on whether or not war itself is ethical here, but while countries war, expect the designers of weapons to use all available technology to create a better product.

Sure depleted uranium is a source of pollution, but I don't think it's anywhere near as significant as transportation by-products.

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by michaelsharp
"they say" that' the way forward in these orders is to openly ask and seek guideance. But I"ve usually found that that only applies if you are willing to follow along with canon and ask the right questions. I've usually found that real questions anc concerns are often met with attacks. Its only those questions that pander to the myths that are allowed in discourse.

Case in point: you asked about the "higher Degrees", and you were politely, correctly told that the Third Degree is the highest Degree in Freemasonry. MM concurred as did ML. 3 answers to your question.

You then keep on quoting Pike saying he's writing about the 32nd Degree "The highest Degree in Masonry". Wrong. You chose not to accept the answer, it's not that you didn't ask the "right questions", you ignored the answer you were given. On top of that, technically the 33rd Degree is that LAST (notice I did not say highest) Degree in the SCOTTISH RITE, although it is honorary.

So much to study.

Putting aside the interpretation of Pike, if the third degree is the highest degree in masonry, then why does Pike talk about a 32 degree "Keeper of the Royal Secret"? Is there a distinction here between branches of masonry that I'm missing?

Originally posted by michaelsharp

Putting aside the interpretation of Pike, if the third degree is the highest degree in masonry, then why does Pike talk about a 32 degree "Keeper of the Royal Secret"? Is there a distinction here between branches of masonry that I'm missing?

Its a common misconception michael, to become a fully fledged Mason you have to go through degrees 1,2,3 thats all. You then might go on to be a Master in a Lodge, this does not mean that you are any better or higher, it is just a job. The master of the Lodge is usually replaced each year with the next guy in line.

A Master Mason 3rd Degree can , if he wishes join additional orders, each time he joins or takes part in these add on orders he is said to have passed to say the 18th degree. They are in no way compulsory.

Those of us in Freemasonry do not recognise this as a superior degree , its just a name , a mode of recognistion.

The Grand master of The United Grand Lodge of England is the Duke of Kent. He is a Master Mason , and is no higher in rank than I am. Its a job , which has a mode of recognition. He is a 33rd degree Mason.

It is like the Boss of the Company where you work, is he better than you because he has more money and more power, well not as far as I am concerned he isn't. Its his job.

Originally posted by the_truth_wants_2_B_found
I am growing tired of vague explanations by Masons. Masons are a craft not unlike Witchcraft, or Wicca. They believe in a higher level of enlightenment and strive to achieve this higher level of conciousness while keeping the masses unaware. They are meerly a part of the largest secret ever. Mankind is on the brink of a huge evolutionary step of conciousness, a level of the ILLUMINATED. Masons along with other organizations strive to control this level of conciousness to within their societies and other secret societies. They use tools such as Christianity, which is a hoax, as a means to control the masses. Christianity is invented to protect their secret. That is why Christianity teaches against all forms of Witchcraft, Satanism, etc. It is meerly to scare the masses into looking no further, into not seeking any further enlightenment or spiritual growth. To fear what is truly our next step in evolution. An enlightened state, a new level of conciousness. The global elite and secret societies of the world are aware of this next step (have been for centuries) and are trying to manipulate and control what is ultimately mankinds destiny.

I personally am not a Christian so don't take me for a radical, I seek the truth. Will a knowledgeable person (preferably Mason or Illuminati) respond?

I agree with what your saying here. Though I think that Masons are by and large of good heart. They enter masonry with the intent of doing good but they enter a system that subtely twists their thinking until, in the end, they are calling evil good. This is basically the point I'm trying to draw out here. That people like Pike have been misled into developing a system that justifies the world's evil. Not intentionally, and all the while believing they are part of a system that offers higher morality and better living (says so right in the masonic documents).

I wanted to try a little thought experiment. In a previous post I quoted from Pike's description of the 33 degree of masonry (which apparantely doesn't exist!) and point out that in that Pike justifies the existence of suffering

by attaining to the knowledge of which
equilibrium we can, through Faith, see that the
existence of Evil, Sin, Suffering, and Sorrow in the
world, is consistent with the Infinite Goodness as well
as with the Infinite Wisdom of the Almighty.

its pretty obvious in context or no. Evil and suffering is OK. Its consistent with the Divine will (my perspective on this, for the record, IS IT IS NOT consistent with the Divine will. God is pained by the suffering of all and we know that is true when we understand the nature of God and our connection to source).

But anyway, let's imagine for a moment that we are a major figure in the World Bank or IMF (international monetary fund) and a 33degree mason (or 3rd degree mason who has read Pike's 33rd degree and understands the ultra super secret of equilibrium). we now believe that suffering is OK, that there is some reason for it (even though we may not understand), and that there is likely nothing we can do about it.

Its our job as member of the IMF to help manage the debt of a third world country. The third world country has a huge debt largely owing to the indiscriminate lending of petrodollars in the 70s. The fellow from the IMF has been asked to impose austerity measures on the contrary. This means he must basically force the government to make huge cuts in social spending so that the money generated inside the country can be funnelled off to pay the countries debt to the rich bankers of the world. The 33degree Mason understands that this will cause extreme economic hardship for the poorest majority. Money that could have gone to programs to help feed starving children will now go to rich countries to allow rich people to drive Mercedes.

Its a tough moral decision for this man who is a Mason and who wants to do good. But he can make the decision he is ordered to make and ease his guilty mind because, as every 33degree mason knows, suffering is OK and consistent with Divine will.

In this way does masonry justify gross injustice.

Now let's reverse this process. Let's pretend for the moment that the 33degree Mason has been brought up in an order that says NO EVIL is justifiable, NO POVERTY is acceptable, and NO SUFFERING is good. Pretend that the Mason was told the truth that GOD IS LOVE and LOVE can brook no suffering in loved ones (what is a mother's initial response to a child's cry. Immediately the mother moves to alleviate the suffering). What will the mason do then when he is ordered to impose austerity measures?

I'll tell you one thing, he won't be able to go home with a clean conscious knowing that he is likely the direct cause of immeasurable suffering and countless infant deaths. Stripped of the justification of masonry, he'd recognize the horrible act for what it really was

You are also right about the quantum leap in consciousness that is already occuring. I have a book on this called Book of Life: Ascension and the Divine World Order which outlines the process and provides a big picture historical perspective. The masons and other secret orders can't control this process anymore though. They won't be able to keep a lid on it and those caught in the illusions will have an increasingly desperate time trying to keep a lid on things. Will cause a lot of psychological dissonance in these poors folks who will have a hard time accepting the Divine truths.

And the first shall be last

Originally posted by michaelsharp
Putting aside the interpretation of Pike, if the third degree is the highest degree in masonry, then why does Pike talk about a 32 degree "Keeper of the Royal Secret"? Is there a distinction here between branches of masonry that I'm missing?

The way I understand it, Masonry is 1-3 Degrees. Period. Then, in addition to the Degrees of Blue Lodge, there are various other paths for Master Masons to take to expand on the teachings of Blue Lodge. It just goes more in depth. Now, I'm not a member yet, this is just how I understand what has been told to me, and what I have read here and there.

You have to understand that the Scottish Rite, York Rite, The Shrine, all of them are seperate entities from Craft Masonry (or Blue Lodge). Just because you are a 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason, it doesn't mean you are any more f a Mason than someone who is not, it just means that you are a member of the Scottish Rite. It is confusing, I'll admit, but they are completely seperate.

Like I said, after the 3rd Degree, a Mason is a Mason. The point is, the Scottish Rite degrees are not "ranks", they are lessons, the way I understand it. Being a 32nd Degree just means that you have witnessed and taken part in those lessons, nothing more.

Guys, am I missing something here? I'll give you that I don't fully understand yet, and I probably won't fully get it until I take the Degrees myself, but I'm trying...

OK MS, say you were the guy in charge of collecting all the "petrodollars". You have a job to do, yet you know that by doing your job, people somewhere, somehow, will suffer because of it. Do you do your job? Or do you commit a crime and divert the funds to the people or otherwise try to reverse the effects of your task? I don't know, but I don't think being a Mason has anything to do with that call.

Besides that, you've got a "shoot the messenger" type scenario going there... It wouldn't be the bank guy's fault, as you said he was ordered to do so. Clear conscience or not, the job has to be done. I'm not saying it's right, but I don't think your example holds water...

If I'm wrong, please explain...

[edit on 12/15/04 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by michaelsharp
Jumping right ahead to The highest degree of Masonry, 32 degree, Master of the Royal secret, PIke seems to be justifiying the evils in this world. That sin and suffering are OK.

Nowhere in M&D does Pike justify evil of any kind. First, it must be remembered that M&D is a book of philosophy, and all philosophers have attempted to answer the following question: If God is all good, why does He allow evil to exist?

Pike throws in his opinions on this question, and tries to understand the existence of evil. But, again, nowhere does he condone evil, he simply acknowledges its existence. Also, it seems rather odd that anyone who has read the book would make such an accusation, especially since Pike spends about 300 pages talking about how it is the duty of all rational creatures, and especially that of Masons, to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and relief the distressed and sick. I could be wrong here (it's happened once before), but it appears to me that the poster either has not read the entire book, or has read it and has ignored its meaning.

Whenever I think of suffering I think of children in sweatshops or other such man made atrocities. Mass starvation because people can't afford to pay for food, the use of DU in munitions, a ruling class that prefers to spend the social surplus in war rather than peace, the floride poisoning of the western mind, and stuff like that. I dont' see anything good in any of those things and I just wonder why the highest degree of masonry provide a justification for that.

And, once more, I say that Pike has addressed practically all of these things in Morals and Dogma, and has condemned them as injustices. If you'd read the book, you should know that. Of course, Pike didn't throw a tangent about flouride in the water because they didn't have it back then. That's why Pike and everyone else in his time had dentures by the time they were 30.

Ya I agree with you there is a contradiction here. Mason's are supposed to do good work and all that. And I certainly don't want to enter a judgment against Masons. I can see the attraction of fraternity and the attraction of the support for doing good work and developing character. But I have a hard time with the notion that evil is ok in the grander scheme of things. I think whether or not Pike intends the justificaton, it still ends up being one.

As a young teenager I knew a satanist and he use to say exactly the same thing. That evil can't exist without good, that suffering is necessary, and its all part of the "the wheel" so there. Not that I believe in Satan and I'm most certainly not christian, but I've seen this sort of belief echoed in one form or another in alot of different places some "secret" and some not. The pervasiveness of this belief strikes me not to mention its totally erroneous nature.

Philosophy or no, intentional or not, I can't shake the notion that this is merely a justification for doing bad things (think IMF banker imposing austerity programs).

As for flouride, its a neurotoxin and peopel had dentures because of bad dental care. My teeth stopped having cavities when i stopped flouride. You can google flouride and neurotoxin if you want more info.

Originally posted by Artifex

Whenever I think of suffering I think of children in sweatshops or other such man made atrocities. Mass starvation because people can't afford to pay for food, the use of DU in munitions, a ruling class that prefers to spend the social surplus in war rather than peace, the floride poisoning of the western mind, and stuff like that. I dont' see anything good in any of those things and I just wonder why the highest degree of masonry provide a justification for that.

Do you understand why Depleted Uranium is used in munitions?

Do you think someone who's sternum has just ripped open cares if the bullet was lead or depleted uranium or platinum for that matter?

Depleted uranium is used for its armor piercing properties. DU is extremely dense, the added projectile core weight and density allows rounds made from it to punch through armor easier.

I don't want to start a conversation on whether or not war itself is ethical here, but while countries war, expect the designers of weapons to use all available technology to create a better product.

Sure depleted uranium is a source of pollution, but I don't think it's anywhere near as significant as transportation by-products.

well ok, LOL, it is OK to irradiate an entire country. Thanks for the clarification. I can sleep better now knowing that there is a rational reason for exposing children to radiation.

ms