Did the MMR Vaccine Fail?

Hi all,

As some of you will know, this has not been a great week for me, but the last 36 hours have been the pits.

Background information:

Sorry this section is long, but worth it, as it is linked.

My son, came into me on Wednesday night saying his eye was bloodshot, it was indeed very bloodshot, his cheek was a little pink too, I thought little of it, told him to go to sleep and we would look at it again in the morning.

The next morning, both cheeks were bright pink, his eye was a little gammy (just needed cleaning) but it was no longer bloodshot so I packed him off to school.

He came home, complained of having a headache, so I gave him some painkiller.

He also said his cheels are sore and a bit itchy, I dug out the thermometer to check his temp, but found it didn't work, so I ran him round to the chemist to get a new one and ask the pharmacist.

The pharmacist was concerned as it looked to have spread to his forehead (a spotty raised rash) and his neck (similar to hisofrehead rash.

Her advice was he needed to see a doctor.

So I went home, checked his temp, it was 36.6 celcius...nice and normal, rang 111 and they advised he saw the out of hours GP.

Well, she wasn't very helpful, I said could it be slapped cheek? as I thought that was the most logical conclusion at the tie based on presentation and she said..

"No, I don't think so, it looks more like a reaction, you say he wasn't well at Christmas, so perhaps this is a reaction, to the way his body fought the virus?!"

Ok...we took the emoilient she prescribed as she felt his cheeks looked very dry, I applied it when we got home.

"Argh, Mum, that really hurts!"

The cream hurt his cheeks so much he cried, I gave him so anti-histamine, ibuprofen and packed him off to bed.

The Second Visit:

Friday is when it got really interesting, sorry you have had to wait til this point for the juicy part, but I felt it important to know the background.

I didn't send him to school, as I wasn't convinced by the diagnosis and agreed when the doctor said he needed a little rest, by about four thirty in the afternoon he walked into the kitchen and I noticed the rash more prominently on his neck, I unzipped his onsie to investigate.

The rash was on his neck, down one shoulder, covered the back of his neck, his back, his bottom, his entire groin area too.

When I was 10 I had rubella (german measles), ater I had it the doctor vaccinated me against it (I have no idea why, as when I had my youngest, I wasn't immune, I couldn't be, as I carry the anti-body), my son's rash looked identical, so I began to think, he is around the age I caught it, perhaps the MMR didn't work.

MMR is meant to carry 20 years worth of immunity for 99% of those who receive both doses (my son had both doses), for 1% it fails.

Whoever would have thought my family may make it into the 1%!?

At this point I could go on a major rant about the state of point of contact care, but I won't as it would be riddiculous and take away from the purpose of this thread, but let's just say we ended up back at the out of hours GP.

Well he looked at the rash, asked my son how he felt and preceeded to tell me that he would be far more worried if he had symptoms but no rash, than a rash and no symptoms, I did try to explain although he is an obnoxious pre-teen nightmare, he had not been 100%.

The most I could get him to commit to was he had a virus, he didn't know which one, I asked what his gut instinct was, but he couldn't be drawn, he mentioned slapped cheek, said it can spread, though he equally didn't say it wasn't rubella, just that he had a virus, and it wasn't worth finding out which one.

I mentioned the risk if it was german measles, his reply was "It is up to everyone to get immunised, not just one person to protect coming into contact."

Personally I find this doctors attitude to be one of complete apathy, sure he would have been most contagious prior to rash, but what am I supposed to tell his school on Monday?

I'm not saying it is rubella, just that the rash is identical to the one I had in terms of presentation, I'm not saying it's slapped cheek either, but it is a possibility.

The problem with not trying to put a name to it, is piece of mind, there was a time, when I was young, you would see your doctor and they would have a hunch, 9 times out of 10 that hunch would pay off, nowadays its all left open ended.

My concern is if this is rubella, then what about the mealses and mumps conponent of the vaccine, is he still immune?

The failure rate for the MMR to protect from mumps is higher...between 5-10%

I apologise for waffeling on, but I genuinely wondered what you guys might think, I know none of you can diagnose, but am I ....

1) Overreacting?

2) Barking up the wrong tree?

3) Right to be concerned, with regard to MMR no longer doing its job?

4) Perhaps, slapped cheek is a more appropriate diagnosis, or it really could just be some random virus with no specific name of signifigance, with a rubella like presentation?

I know the community on here has very mixed feelings with regards to vaccination in general, personally I am an advocate of immunisation, I have even commented in support of MMR on this very site in the past, on more than one occaision.

So tonight I am wavering on my stance, mainly because is vaccinaion leading to complacency in diagnosis, the "Oh you're immune, most are immune, don't worry about it, they should be immune anyway."

Would be great to have some feedback folks

Fifth Disease.

The name "fifth disease" comes from its place on the standard list of rash-causing childhood diseases, which also includes measles, scarlet fever, and rubella.

With that said, ATS probably isn't the place to get info on this.


You should get a second opinion if you're worried.



1) I don't think anyone overreacts when it comes to their children.

As a parent, you have to both trust your instincts and be your child's advocate. If there is any doubt in your mind, I would suggest that you seek a second opinion if possible. Recently several people (7?) caught measles at Disneyland. ONE of them HAD been immunized, so it IS possible.

You just have to trust your parent instinct, it's there for a reason!

Good luck, and well wishes for your child.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Thanks for your reply Charlie,

Yeah, Slapped cheek was my initial conclusion too.

Fifth disease is the official name, my question is would the rash become so widespread?

The doctor did say it can migrate, although he made it sound as though that was the exception rather than the rule.

The first doctor I saw on Thursday discounted fifth, because he was not in the age range for contracting it.

Technically, I have already sought a second opinion, I'm not going for a third, as the doctor made it clear he thought i was making a fuss

Thank you for your feeback hun, much appreciated and I agree, you never can overreact when it comes to your offspring

a reply to: solargeddon

My dear - I am just going to pass this info along so you have something else to be aware of.

I'm in Calgary and for the last two years there has been a rash of severe pink eye that spreads to the glands on the face and people have ended up on i.v. in the hospital (can lead to the brain). I'm not saying this to scare you as I don't think this is what your child has, BUT, I believe in being aware.

I do believe in vaccinations but only the vital ones. People who don't vaccinate their kids are playing with fire with their own children and society and future generations.

Parinaud oculoglandular syndrome
parinaud oculoglandular syndrome is an eye problem that is similar to conjunctivitis ("pink eye"). It usually affects only one eye and occurs with swollen lymph nodes and an illness with a fever.


Orbital cellulitis
Orbital cellulitis is an acute infection of the tissues immediately surrounding the eye, including the eyelids, eyebrow, and cheek.

Periorbital cellulitis

www.drreddy.com...

a reply to: MojaveBurning

The problem with my instinct on this occaision, is I think it could be either fifth's or rubella, I don't think it is a nonspecific rash, I think it is something doctors of old would have taken one look and gone "You have...."

I could down the line ask for a blood test to detect if any anti0bodies are present, but that would cause my son the discomfort of a bloodtest which I have mixed feelings about.

We do need a new GP though, so I may take pics and ask the new GP their thoughts when we have a visit.

a reply to: ccseagull

Thanks for the info, wil check it out, he has had a problem with the eye for a long time on and off, it began when he was a baby, funnily enough I always thought it was vaccine related, as it presented around the first time he was vaccinated and remained for a while after his thrid vaccination.

Then a couple of years ago it flared up again, I kept taing him to the doctor but no joy.

a reply to: solargeddon

No problem my friend.

Hope all goes well.


As for this...

as the doctor made it clear he thought i was making a fuss

That's none of the doctors business in the slightest, if you want a third & then fourth opinion go for it.

Good luck

I am really sorry your son isn't feeling well.

Can't help with the diagnosis but I am one of those people that just can't get a vaccine to stick. I have had 4 MMRs yet a titer looks like I have never had one. I also got the mumps in my teens despite having been vaccinated twice before that. Then I had two more vaccines at college age and it still looks like I have no immunity. It is the same with the pre exposure rabies vaccines I have had (due to my work with animals) and hepatitis vaccines. So if the vaccine did fail for your son it might be something to be aware of so if he is vaccinated for something in the future they know to do a titer to check if the vaccine actually worked.

Good luck!

Ok off to bed for now...it's after 3am here in the UK, thank you so much for all your supportive replies, I don't mind admitting its been driving me a little nutty, so it's nice to have some balanced input from you guys.

Will check back when I crawl out of my pit upon waking

a reply to: solargeddon

Sorry to hear that your son is ill, my daughter is grown now but I remember the worry when she was sick.

I just read your post to my wife who I greatly respect as she is an excellent RN. She recommends you take your son to a dermitlogist. It sounds like he has a reaction to something and from what you say historically about the eye problem, it could be getting more sensitive, I mean the reaction.

Face it, if it is Rubella and he was vaccinated for it, they will not even consider it. Even if it fails one time out of a hundred, that means one person out of a hundred will catch it anyway. Just because the odds are so low does not mean it is not the disease. How many times have doctors not reported this disease when the kids were vaccinated, blaming it on something else. Maybe it is actually five percent but very few of the cases get reported. Doctors can be fooled by their own beliefs too.

I am not saying it is Rubella in this case, but only stating that these things have happened and that they will continue happening if the doctors discount the possibility and never check. Does anyone ever check to see if their percentages are accurate? I doubt it. Look how the doctors were telling people they did not have the flu if they had the flu shot. The flu shots helped some but the doctors told a lot of people before that they had something else because they had the flu shot. It didn't just start two years ago that the shot didn't work right, this has been going on for many years. The viruses were mutating for decades, making the flu shots not work as well as they stated.

People have been falsely steered into believing that the flu viruses just started to mutate. Also a virus and a bacterial infection can be in our bodies at the same time, killing the infection can strengthen the body to fight a virus. Now doctors are being told that they can't give antibiotics for viruses, this should be a call of the doctor, not someone sitting at a desk a thousand miles away. Although I do not believe in giving antibiotics unless needed, I do think the doctor should not be restricted from using them. A common cold can lower body temperature enough to dampen a response of temperature raise from a bacterial infection which is a way of judging what a person has.

I'm pretty sure there have been efficacy issues with the MMR. Maybe other members would now more.

a reply to: solargeddon

No, you are not overreacting. You Child has some sort of illness that is unofficially diagnosed which is causing him discomfort. I believe illnesses are scary, the average person isn't a doctor and doesn't know symptoms of illnesses that could be potentially deadly. You said he hasn't been feeling well since Christmas, he isn't dead so that's a good sign (sorry to be so blunt). Definitely see a different Dr, if they want to do blood test I think you should do it. Could there be some type of hereditary illness you guys have that correlates with the symptoms.

a reply to: anarchychaos56

Thanks for your response, the first doctor we saw thought it may be an allergic reaction, with all due respect I'm not sure that would be the case in this instance, the worst thing is, I would never see a dermatologist before the rash has dissappeared (the NHS don't have clinics you can just turn up, it has to be referred through a doctor).

I appreciate your imput though and I guess all bets are off, as we are never going to know one way or another, I will take him back to the GP though about his eye, as I do think that is a reaction of sorts and is something that has persisted on and off, I may even suggest could he see an eye specialist.

a reply to: rickymouse

I did say to my son after we left, the doctor is never going to admit your immunisation may have failed, as it isn't in anyone's best interest from their perspective, from our perspective and I'm sure many people would feel the same way it culd be significant, as you say with regards to temperature, I am one of those people who doesnt necessarily get a temperature with a bacterial infection, it doesn't mean I don't need anti-biotics, it just means I am not textbook, I suspect my son may become similar to me.

Today the rash has spread further, it covers his chest and stomach now, he says it is on his legs (I haven't looked) and now is on his arms too, I guess it is wait and see as to whether he goes to school on Monday.

Thankfully he isn't really in any discomfort, he is just rashy!

Thought I would post a pic, it's not great as he is a fidget, but it's something to look at.

a reply to: solargeddon

I cannot speak for the MMR vacine, but I can say that not all doctors are equal. I myself had Streptococal Scarlet Fever (they use to quarentine people who had this, and for very good reason). Well I was getting worse I went to the emergency and the Dr there said I needed to have a spinal tap to test the fluid to make sure it wasn't menengitis (A girl had recently died at our University so they were trying to be careful). They said that nothing was wrong and to go home. Then I made an appointment with my family physician and he took one look at me and new right away what was wrong and did a throat swab for confirmation. I had told him what had happened at the emerg and he shook his head and told me that they must have been training student doctors (he was correct) and wanted to show how to do a spinal tap, because the very first thing they are suppose to do is a throat swab to test for illness.
My question to you is, did your doctor do a throat swab on your son? If not you need to take him in and demand one be done.
I wish you and your family the best of health, PEACE!

a reply to: solargeddon

It kind of looks like the id reaction my kid got when his body was fighting off molloscum

kwww.mayoclinic.org... a viral infection of the skin that doesn't present with fever.

Anyways if your kid hasn't run fever, take him to a dermatologist maybe?

a reply to: Fireflysky

Definitely. The only time my kid was diagnosed with strep, he had a rash and no fever. Good thinking!