Obama to propose 2 free years of community college

The number of people that think there is such a thing as "free" coming from the fed is kind of scary to me.

It's a bad idea, and worse yet it's not meant to help anyone, it's a purely political move meant to force republicans to look bad for blocking it, or look bad for passing something that ends up a train wreck.

a reply to: Aazadan

I understand what you are saying, but in this case it was just earmarking dollars towards an education fund, but rather actually paying tuition at state colleges and universities. There is a difference.

On one hand, the case you mentioned could and would likely take place, in the 2nd (paying tuition) the state does not earmark significant funds for paying tuitions from more traditional sources. There is a difference between funding education and funding virtually any decent student's tuition.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

You on one hand imply that entrepeneurs do not create jobs (if not them, then who, the state?) and then on the other hand you imply that what is needed is income without jobs?? Really?

We have too much of that crap already. Paying people to not work is demonstrably ineffective and does not help the individual improve himself, or improve his lot in life. It is the best way to maintain a level of poverty for a specific subsection of our population.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Here's an even better idea, abandon the archaic concept that high school educations simply MUST be balanced and well rounded and establish a second track for sophomores and up who wish to take it. There are a lot of people in high school who don't care about French, Art, Biology, Senior Math, English Lit, or any of a slew of other HS standards intended to provide a broad reaching general education... why not provide a career/technical track almost like a trade school or apprenticeship program in which those young adults can spend their last few years of high school learning how to be mechanics, welders, technicians, or even just learning business skills?

This, absolutely. My state has a pretty wonderful university system for those for whom college makes sense.

But honestly, there's a pretty substantial percentage of students for whom a 4-year-degree is pointless or out-of-reach - for whatever reason, they can't gain admission, can't afford, aren't interested in a 4-year degree program, or are so marginal academically, they won't complete their degree or will take the easiest degree they can escape with, which are worthless. Altogether, pretty sure that's more than half of high school graduates. I know 4-year grads who work in coffee shops, having taken degrees in things that no one is hiring for.

If we want to make a difference, high schools need to revive/modernize trades training - give students a useful and marketable skill so that they don't all compete for minimum-wage retail jobs.

Where this all fell down when I was of that age was you could go to an occupational school to be an electrician or a carpenter or HVAC, etc, and after you completed the curriculum, were eligible for a journeyman's card. "Eligible" - the unions were closed shops, and union cards went to friends and family members - or, you could "buy" one, but no one from an occupational school had the money to pay the bribe. For many, it was a waste of two years (or whatever) of their lives - I went to a trade school myself, but ultimately wound up joining the Army to learn a skill I could make a living on.

Nowadays, most small trades companies seem to hire illegal aliens for these jobs - there needs to be a viable means of post-grad employment for graduates of such trades training or its a waste of time and money.

For the most part, AA degrees are pretty worthless, except as a bridge to a Bachelor's - if we're going to invest in anything, let's invest in skilled trades training.

(As for this proposal, this is almost certainly a political move - the President offers candy with no way to pay for it, will make it a centerpiece at the State of the Union, and the mean-old Congress will have to be the mean parent who says "no." I don't think he expects, or even cares if it passes - he wants to take credit for a "program" - more a "notion" than an actual program - that will never exist. Finally, I think this is a "state" responsibility, not federal.)

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

I disagree slightly. I can see the need for say an English degree if you are going to go into professional writing or journalism. There certainly are useful liberal arts degrees; it's just that they are easier to obtain than technical degrees and therefore become the low hanging fruit that most unexperienced people reach for. So the market for those degrees becomes over-saturated.

Oh, don't get me wrong: I don't think an English or journalism degree isn't useful. (Perhaps I mistyped.) I just don't think it's *necessary* if all you're going to do is write or do journalism, assuming you've been attentive and successful in high school and can learn quickly. (AP style and hard news writing isn't hard to pick up, neither is the format for a proper essay.) So I have nothing against said degrees, I merely think that they're less necessary than they seem, which is probably because, as you pointed out, the field is over-saturated.

Also let me clarify my imprecision: when I said "liberal arts education" I wasn't referring to the type of degree. A liberal arts education is much more than training in a particular skill set; it covers a wide variety of topics; for instance, if I was to get an English degree from a liberal arts college, I'd take classes in English and writing, but also in philosophy, political theory, history, literature, etc. etc. The goal of a liberal arts education is to produce well rounded students, not merely technical training in a skill like journalism or engineering. So it's not the low end of the stick; in fact, if you look at most liberal arts colleges, you'll find they usually recruit from the top end of the skill set rather than the bottom (at least what I've seen.)

a reply to: StalkerSolent

Fair enough. I just don't want to see college education slashed to make education more affordable. Having a well rounded education is a good thing.

originally posted by: squittles
For the most part, AA degrees are pretty worthless, except as a bridge to a Bachelor's - if we're going to invest in anything, let's invest in skilled trades training.

This sadly is true. I've got a couple of Associates Degrees (three actually), they're not worth the paper they're printed on, and I even have them in STEM fields not worthless ones like basketweaving. The fact is that employers just don't care about things like that. A Bachelors is the minimum degree that's worth anything in the US and even those have questionable value these days.

I see people here are already coming up with reasons why it's too expensive or how a 2 year education is a worthless. The truth is, Obama is suggesting it so Republicans will yet again fight the wrong fight. A trillion bucks for a war? We'll find a way. Education, sorry, won't even consider the possibility...

So predictable.

Republicans TANK the economy HARD when they have a Republican president, spending billions of dollars every month on a false war... They killed the economy. Sent us back to great depression times on their exit... And Fing pretend to be these fiscally conservative people who say "we can't afford it". Such liars. Such fakers. Print all the money you need to drop missiles on wedding parties. But Fing healthcare or education... just can't do it. The money just isn't there. Oh my God, the balls to be that hypocritical.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

Yeah, "all the republican's fault"......Sure sure.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

LOL huge difference between Repubs and Dems in your mind, I see.

You, sir, are as much a part of the problem as those Repubs you blame. If you cannot see that our govt of 2 parties is a sham, an orchaestrated play designed to fool the sheep they "lead" then dayum man....

6 (or 7) of the richest congress people are Dems...but yeah, they are all about helping the little guy. Nevermind the fact that they have no clue what it is to live paycheck to paycheck. It's all about getting re-elected no matter what frakking party they belong to.

originally posted by: xuenchen
What does Obama say about this.....

Hamburger University

The future is right before your eyes !!!

then again they can also go to IBM = International Burger Making

originally posted by: HawkeyeNation

originally posted by: Answer
Great idea!

Let's do 4 things to fund this:

1) Crack down on people who are receiving disability checks/social security/welfare while still working. It's sickening how many people are milking the government tit while still working.

2) Require all welfare recipients that aren't disabled to attend the free 2 years of college. If they can't/won't/don't earn at least a 2.5 GPA, they're off welfare.

3) Mandatory drug and alcohol testing for welfare recipients. If they fail 2 tests, they're off welfare. If you have enough money for drugs and booze, you're not so bad off that taxpayers should be supporting you.

4) Legalize Marijuana and tax it to help pay for the 2 years of free education.

Excellent post. Outstanding. I would also note that welfare recipients names should be made available to the public. Sooo many people work the system. A friend couple of mine are working the system right now and it pisses me off because that is my money. They make 100k between the two of them.

I love the idea of offering 2 years free. They have to curb the amount of increase the schools will levy because we all know they will try to take advantage of it too. Also as incentive the 2 years are only free if you graduate or finish up your 2 years with a 2.5 GPA. If not you are on the hook for the bill.

You already know 2 people who are using the system and are apparently GLAD to pay for them because YOU are NOT willing to turn them in!.... Are they the only friends you have?.... Do you know that you can afford to live without them?(after turning them in for fraud).....You should make them pay for everything you all do together because you already pay their way or are you afraid to say something to them about using the system THAT YOU PAY INTO?.... You say you're pissed off that they are using the system, what pisses me off is people like you knowing people using the system and DO NOTHING ABOUT IT!!!!

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: StalkerSolent

Fair enough. I just don't want to see college education slashed to make education more affordable. Having a well rounded education is a good thing.

I agree with you there!

I saw a neat little article today. The government spends 69 billion a year subsidizing grants and loans and tuition forgiveness. The total cost of tuition in the entire United States last year was 62.6 billion. If they cut out the middle man they could have paid the entire college education of every person who attended college last year and had money left over.

originally posted by: macman
a reply to: sean

College degrees don't equal jobs.

I never graduated from college, make close to $90k a year in my day job, own a business (2yrs old) and make about $30k a year right now from it, only because it is basically part time.

College is over-rated. And expensive.

Exactly, but the government believes this is going to fix everything. There first has to be jobs for people to work. With a failing economy I don't see how this is going to work. Yes there is sustain jobs that are there, but factory production jobs and technology has hit a brick wall. The majority of things are made overseas. Eventually all jobs will go belly up. A consumer/worker must first have money to consume. It's that simple. What are you going to do when your customers can no longer afford to buy from you? You go belly up!

Take the increasing amount of unemployed adults already and add approximately 3.5 million high school kids that graduate every year in the US. Anyone who believes there are that many NEW jobs being created yearly is living in a DREAMLAND. This is what happens to big military governments throughout history. They gotten so large that they cannot sustain themselves and it rots within. Without new innovation, or a society working together as a community to better themselves it will never work. Collapse is inevitable.

The lower class is working hard just to keep the bare essentials while others are filthy rich and just suck in more. They will become poor too eventually. When money is worth nothing, then they will be burning their stacks of money to stay warm. The government needs to cut the head off the war department immediately and get their priority straight and other big spending Otherwise there will be nothing left to defend, but ashes. This is the runaway train we're facing and it is coming down the rail really fast.

a reply to: sean

Manufacturing jobs have been going overseas since the 90s... Right now we are practicing (pretty much) manufacturing masturbation. What we produce here, in States, is only consumed here and/or is merely assembly work putting parts together that are imported.

Back in the 60s the US produced 60% of the world's manufactured goods. Great times, economically that continued on through the 70s. The 80s saw several changes that were critical to our future (present). The results of the oil embargo from the late 70s, the stronger dollar policy pursued during the 80s resulted in a flip flop in trade balance. Suddenly, we were buying stuff made out of country at the expense of local production (strong dollar) and then add to that the massive and increasing importation of oil....

Over the last 30 years we have sent more than 15 trillion dollars out of the country...which is to say: our economy has gotten poorer by 15 trillion dollars. Our manufacturing base fled overseas (primarily strong dollar combined with stupid govt actions and ignorant liberal attitudes towards corporations) leaving us with a very small manufacturing base.

Currently we make less than 5% of the world's manufactured goods.... Nosedive from 60% to 5%. It doesn't take an economist to see the results of that. Now we are a "service" economy. Which means we flip burgers and clean toilets for a living. Want to make $15 flipping burgers? Fine...but understand that the $15 will very soon be worth $8. You cannot arbitrarily jack up incomes without effect. Nothing is free....

Then you have those who are entitled to freebies...or feel entitled anyway. Those "freebies" are never free. Never....free....

I could go on and on and on...I could describe how the "war on poverty" was actually a war on the poor...a war designed to keep the poor .. poor. We are reaping the benefits of the "war on poverty" today. Just spend some time in a Section 8 property.... lol that is the product of freebies. That is the product of the "war on poverty".

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Wow, what an astronomical situation to view. I even agree with you on the numbers, simply because they don't lie. But let's just say if we all look at paying for education the way we look at paying taxes? I know, I know, it's a kind of an out there look at things, but it could work...right?

What if the government lowered taxes on the wealthy and imposed certain taxes on every single "working" American thereby claiming a stake on education? We take the reduced tax, roll it into a new tax and pay for our children's education, meanwhile...the rest of us are investing/paying into the future of our American kids education. Every young person should have a shot. Even if just a shot at vocational training. All with a hell of a lot of responsibility on the kids. Such as maintain a 3.00, if you drop below you loose your funding. Oh well, now you gotta figure something else out. Maybe now you go to the military...I dunno know. Just a thought that I like.

But, here's the kicker...only those majoring in what I proposed to be the "STEM System" will reap the full benefit? While there's benefits for other vocations/majors they may not get as much support, but some financial kickback. IMVHO, we need less lawyers and more scientist and doctors, less psychologist and more counselors in our over populated high schools...maybe more scientific researchers. Just a thought.

I don't know...maybe it's wishful thinking....but something has to be done...and immediately. Our kids are failing and if they continue to fail then where will our nation stand in 15-25 years or beyond? We're already behind.

It's not looking so hot, we have to come up with something