Lying

I would like to hear some thoughts on the topic of lying. And I will share my perspective, which is not one most people would necessarily say. I think there's quite a lot of situations where lying is a good thing. I actually don't like lying. I would prefer not to. But sometimes, it's just the best thing. It can be a great tool to living your life smoothly. Say you want to do something, that you feel that you know is in no way wrong. But you have someone in your life who cannot accept your doing it, because they have skewed perspectives on it. You may have to lie. It's just the only way to be able to do what you know you should be able to do, without throwing your personal life into chaos.

There's just situations as you go through your life, where telling the truth will wreak havoc. There will be huge stressful problems with your life and relationships. And they are unnecessary, but the other people won't see it that way. So you just tell a little lie, chaos doesn't ensue, and it becomes just another meaningless statement that fades from memory. You don't lie about anything that's actually important, but sometimes you just need to to keep the peace.

Now, there is an ethic to this. I honestly don't know how to verbalize this ethic. It is very subtle. But the ethic is not an absolute 'do not lie.' If one embraces the philosophy that lying is sometimes necessary, it is my opinion that one should be introspective and careful about it. Because, lying can be bad too. If it's not necessary, I do not like to lie. And I do not know the exact line between when it is or is not necessary to lie. I certainly can't put it into words. But it is there. In my opinion, lying is totally necessary to get through life smoothly. But one should also develop an ethical sense about lying, such that when one lies they genuinely feel that it was the right thing to do, and they don't just mindlessly lie.

a reply to: TheJourney

Everybody lies all the time If anyone says they do not they are lying.
If we didn't we would be at each others throats more than we are now.
White lies are crucial to our social structure.

BTW Have you seen the film The invention of lying? not a great film but shows what it would be like If we just told the 100% truth all the time.

a reply to: TheJourney

Lying for an easy life? Would it not be much better to tell the truth tactfully and be assertive? If we have to hide behind a lie then I would consider that weak and somewhat cowardly.

Lying is deceiving another human being, even oneself. It is playing a trick of deception, manipulating another mind into accepting a false and illusive perception that is not reality.

I would never trust anyone who deliberately lied. Hurting feelings or failing to take the time to explain an action because it is easier to lie is no excuse.

Also, if you are prepared to use illusion on those you care about then you have no real right to complain when somebody else lies to you. You are saying it is ok for a politician to lie to you because he thinks you will not understand his motives.

It is a slippery slope. It is your business and I've no wish to intrude, but I must disagree with you. Surely you have seen the mess that lies make of people's lives? It is betrayal of trust and it damages people emotionally. You underestimate, too, the human subconscious. The mind may believe a lie, but deep down other senses are giving out warning signs. That creates a glitch in the trust we place on perception in our consciousness. Lying is an act of abuse.

I will always try to practise honesty to the best of my ability. Even when I have been wrong at least it is an honest mistake. It is my experience that lies return to haunt us and in the long run may harm us a great deal more than those we have lied to. Once you have lied to somebody close to you in your life you will have to keep up the façade for the rest of your life with that person. You will have to live with the stress that you may be found out. You may make a mistake at some point as we all do and be the very one who leads to yourself being found out.

Truth is sacred to me. Honesty is everything. Brutal honesty we sometimes call it. The truth sometimes hurts is a common phrase in our language. Better to be hurt with the truth than have one's perception messed with for the sake of a lie.

I have never lied, this was actually the first time

It's ok to lie if it helps you, but hurt no one, the downside though, is it might hurt you if you get caught, and you have to live with knowing you lied, which can be a pain..

a reply to: TheJourney

I will lie without remorse when my wife asks me 1) if she is sexy in the morning and 2) if she asks me if I think she's getting fat.

I also expect her to to lie to me in a couple situations.

originally posted by: Mianeye
I have never lied, this is actually the first time

It's ok to lie if it helps you, but hurt no one, the downside though, is it might hurt you if you get caught, and you have to live with knowing you lied, which can be a pain..

Yes, as I say in my OP, there is an ethic to it. It's just difficult to describe. Lying can be a betrayal, and be a terrible thing. But lying can also be totally benign, and just cause a lot of stress to be avoided. It's subtle to the point that I'm not sure absolute rules can be spelled out. 'but hurts no one' is a reasonable starting point probably. I'm also a strong believer in the damage that lying can cause. But I also believe it can be a good thing. You just have to be introspective about it, and do as good as you can at picking your spots. You don't want to hurt or betray anyone. But if there's nothing bad even going on, but you know hell is going to break loose, due to another's misconceptions, if the truth is known, lying just may be your best option.

a reply to: TheJourney

Ask Me no questions and I will tell no lies...

Does this dress make Me look fat? uh...er..... What?

Oh, You meant "fibs" or ]BOLD FACED LIES? You could drive a Kenworth™ through the differences...

If cornered and You commit a 'fib'? No harm... Where Your pants catch afire? No way, Jose.. Of course, I'm lying when I type that...

I guess if it matters, You'd want "the truth" but Your 'truth' may not be the same 'truth' and in that case either one or both would be accused of "lying".. You can lie but want the truth or You want the truth but You lie or versa-visa...

Maybe instead of talking We should all just read...

Funny thing about the 'Truth' and that is that it is the only thing that will never change.

Are You confessing to lying because whomever You're communicating can't handle the truth?
If You stick with the Truth it relieves You of having to remember the lie....

namaste

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: TheJourney

Everybody lies all the time If anyone says they do not they are lying.
If we didn't we would be at each others throats more than we are now.
White lies are crucial to our social structure.

BTW Have you seen the film The invention of lying? not a great film but shows what it would be like If we just told the 100% truth all the time.

The invention of lying is more like the invention of being blunt or having no inner monologue. It was a good movie but it didn't have too much to do with lying.

a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

So you never lie?.
Sorry but we all do...their are big difference on the lie of course the most common lie is "Nothing is wrong I'm fine".
Let me ask you something a girlfreind of yours says "does my bum look big in this?" before a night out do you tell her "yes it does" then the night is ruined or do you lie and say no to keep the peace?.
Everyone lies on average 10 times a week it helps society run smoothly.
Lying is an act of abuse? obviously depends on the lie but I disagree lying can be a good thing.

a reply to: JimNasium

And this is 9" (-----------------------------------------)

lol,
i thought that used to be 8"!!,, 9" is probably right though.a reply to: JimNasium

a reply to: Tompdx3

It was but thanks to My new Viagra™/Cialis™ Double-Dose I grew an inch and can last almost a full minute now.. It is now bump, bump and shiver.. Nap time.

I thought it would last longer.. I mean it took Me 8 months to finally speak to My healthcare professional who recommended Viagra™ and because I live in the U.S. I went to another Dr. because 2 has to be better than one. I also got a prescription for hypertension; high cholesterol; frequent urination; gout and because I had chicken pox as a kid I got some shingles medicine because I certainly don't want that...

a reply to: TheJourney

I would say, lying is sometimes necessary... and is not always a bad thing but It depends on the situation...

IF a lie is told to further ones agenda, that's probably a bad thing...

IF one is told to increase said persons status or some monetary property... that's probably bad

IF a lie is told to protect someone from harm... that is called a "white lie".... OR it can be described as an honourable lie

Bottom line...

IF a lie is told which causes harm... its bad...

There are definitely innocent lies... but not everyone understands the concept

I prefer to call it deceiving. We not only deceive others, we often deceive ourselves and find ourselves justifying our deceptions.

We are taught in this society that a white lie is necessary sometimes. So we tell our wives we like something she cooked and then we are eating it regularly. She eats it because you said you liked it, and you eat it because you told her you liked it. Meanwhile the two of you are eating something you neither like. Be honest, don't find out these things twenty years later. On the light side, it does give you something to laugh about once you discover neither of you liked it and you suffered all those years.

So where does being nice end and being honest start. In the case above, we would both have been much happier for years if I hadn't tried to be nice. We identified dozens of things like this that we were doing regularly. We learn to live with our lies and sometimes they become a part of us. It is good to be civil and also compassionate, but sometimes telling little white lies or avoiding discussing situations with your love ones is not good. There are more than a few types of lies. There is skirting the truth, avoiding the subject, quoting misapplied evidence, partial truths, and many more ways to deceive people.

Be honest but at the same time be tactful and try not to alienate the person. Getting caught in a lie is often worse than the lie itself. Another thing, don't be lying if you are not smart enough to get away with it. I know people who let out the truth about something a week later in a conversation. They do this to either make you feel like a fool for believing them or to test if you are actually aware. Some people do not like living with lies so intentionally let the cat out of the bag later too so they won't get caught in an unexpected slip someday.

Ok, I have to reread my post now to see if I lied about anything in it.

originally posted by: rickymouse
I prefer to call it deceiving. We not only deceive others, we often deceive ourselves and find ourselves justifying our deceptions.

We are taught in this society that a white lie is necessary sometimes. So we tell our wives we like something she cooked and then we are eating it regularly. She eats it because you said you liked it, and you eat it because you told her you liked it. Meanwhile the two of you are eating something you neither like. Be honest, don't find out these things twenty years later. On the light side, it does give you something to laugh about once you discover neither of you liked it and you suffered all those years.

So where does being nice end and being honest start. In the case above, we would both have been much happier for years if I hadn't tried to be nice. We identified dozens of things like this that we were doing regularly. We learn to live with our lies and sometimes they become a part of us. It is good to be civil and also compassionate, but sometimes telling little white lies or avoiding discussing situations with your love ones is not good. There are more than a few types of lies. There is skirting the truth, avoiding the subject, quoting misapplied evidence, partial truths, and many more ways to deceive people.

Be honest but at the same time be tactful and try not to alienate the person. Getting caught in a lie is often worse than the lie itself. Another thing, don't be lying if you are not smart enough to get away with it. I know people who let out the truth about something a week later in a conversation. They do this to either make you feel like a fool for believing them or to test if you are actually aware. Some people do not like living with lies so intentionally let the cat out of the bag later too so they won't get caught in an unexpected slip someday.

Ok, I have to reread my post now to see if I lied about anything in it.

Your post also brings up a good point. And so I would say, real depth of truth and honesty is something to be sought out in meaningful relationships. It's a meaningful and significant thing which ideally can develop on an individual basis, rather than a moral absolute. Because, if you develop a true sense of trust with another, I do think that should not be betrayed in areas where it is deeply felt that there is honesty. And there is something great about true honesty with another, and also as you point out there are situations where these 'nice lies' are actually negative for both of you. So, honesty certainly has its virtue. But it is something which is ideally developed on an individual basis, not a moral absolute.

a reply to: TheJourney

Lying is a grey area - ethically, I don't see it a bad thing if you are doing it to protect someone, or not hurt them. For example, saying you cannot come to a party because your car broke down, or using it as a way to break up with someone (IE: for an ex, I told her it wasn't working out...didn't tell her I broke it off because it didn't sound like she had a plan together on how she was going to handle her life beyond college).

Now, if you are doing it to further yourself to the point where it can be proven false, then that would be a bad thing. For example, throwing mud at a potential political opponent, all to make yourself look better than them. Or, doing it to get out of something, such as purposely shutting down a computer before an important meeting is supposed to be taking place.

-fossilera

Its acceptable to lie to the alphabet agencies .. along with deny all knowledge of any events ..
Also acceptable to lie to politicians and lawyers neither know what truth is ..
Get good enough at lying you can have a successful career with the alphabet agencies.. top law firms.. or as a politician..

Exactly the same goes for me too. I too hate lying, but i know people are too immature and in many situations they either beg to be lied to (Because they can't handle the truth and the truth will cause both them and you as a result many negative emotions, and not just emotions) or they force you to lie to them (Because telling the truth will cause you a lot of pain and you have no reason not to avoid it if you haven't done anything wrong/hurt anyone).

And also there are also the white lies where even if the person is not immature, the truth will still hurt him/hew.

I was brought up to be truthful and so assumed that everyone else told the truth, too. It was painful to realise that lies had been told by people I trusted as a child - the very people who had impressed on me that honesty was important.

I am more than capable of keeping things private that I consider are no-one else's business, but I don't lie. I just understand that not everyone has a right to know about everything in another person's life. I mean, where does it end? You can't tell someone every last thing you've ever done and, even if you tried, it's inevitable that you'd leave out some snippet or another without realising that was the very thing they'd attach importance to.

But there's a big difference between expecting others to respect your privacy and outright deceiving them.

I've had a long term friendship with someone who is / was an habitual liar and it's not fun. I've spent a long time being in a very suspicious frame of mind and hating it. Sometimes, you have to try and give someone the benefit of the doubt, but then you discover that they've lied yet again. And I always do find out. Not by snooping either.

This person is often of the opinion that I'd be better off not knowing things even though they know perfectly well that I can handle bad news or bad situations. If someone is honest with me, no matter how dire things are, I will try to help. If they lie and I find out, then all Hell breaks loose - and I only ever go off on one when someone really deserves it because I can be pretty ferocious.

Even knowing this, my friend habitually lied to me, then when the truth finally had to be told I'd get the "I know I should have told you because you never kick off if I tell the truth". Where's the bloody logic in that? Someone knows me that well but still feels it necessary to lie.

It's horrible being the victim of a liar. A person doesn't have to be afraid to tell me the truth. A person doesn't need to protect me from the truth. I'm not a monster and I'm not a wimp.

And, I must mention, because other people have brought it up. If someone's bum looks big - simply suggest they wear a more flattering outfit. "Oh, but darling you look so gorgeous in your other dress". That's not difficult. That's the kind thing to do. Don't let someone go out looking dreadful.