Question: Is Being Offended A Personal Choice?

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: Jamie1

An aside, I'm quite interested in your previous work with emotionally traumatized. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? It doesn't have to be here, a U2U would be fine. If I am asking too much, that is also fine.

I would love to reply here because others might benefit.

It's not important how I got here. Let's just say a series of unique circumstances led me to join forces so to speak with others who have dedicated their lives to doing crazy stuff like going into Darfur in the middle of the genocide there. That lead me on adventures and experiences that I never asked for, but have been given. I look back and I'm very humbled at the people I've been lucky enough to spend time with. I would tell you names but that would detract from the concepts. It's not about following a leader or philosophy, it's about figuring out YOU have the power right now to create the life you want.

The craziest thing I learned through all the experiences I've had is that the process people go through in their own minds is independent of the context. A women stuck in grief over her daughter's death is running the exact same process as a guy who ran into his ex-girlfriend at the airport.

The external circumstances are not what makes people unhappy. It's their perception of those circumstances.

That said, people who go through PTSD events get some very powerful emotions and anchors installed. Ironically, people who've gone through the worst experiences are often the quickest to see that it's their thoughts, not the facts, causing them to suffer emotionally.

The biggest leap of progress is simply right at the start, when people realize there are only 2 things - stories, and facts. There's the events, and there's the meanings we give to the events.

I had been helping people with this for several years when I had an experience of my own. No need for details, but from an outsider's view it would have appeared horrific.

It was. The initial shock was devastating. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

I was lucky enough to have friends who wouldn't let me stay stuck. They walked me through the same process I used to help other people. That's when I KNEW from my own experience that yes, this works, even with the most seemingly traumatic events.

The most important part is being around people who can help keep you focused on the stories and facts of any situation. Fact, somebody died. Fact, they're not coming back. Fact, they took the actions that caused their death.

Everything else? All stories and speculation.

Then, what's key is you have to get people focused on what they WANT. A women whose daughter died wanted to be happy and have a great relationship with her other kids. I asked her, "Is it true, 100% true, that you can't have a happy life now that your daughter is dead?"

She wasn't sure at first.

Then I asked her to look at one of her other kids. I said to her, "She's lost her sister. Do you want her to lose her mother too?"

BAM.... that's all it took. She started crying. Her daughter started crying. They hugged each other. They knew that even if they didn't have Jenny, they had each other. They loved each other, and they could keep loving Jenny, even if she was physically dead.

They chose to be happy instead of being sad. They chose unconditional love over stories about why they couldn't be happy.

You think that made a difference in their lives? Um... yeah. Night and day. A life of misery compared to a life of gratitude, love, and happiness. Is Jenny still dead? Yep. Do they feel grateful for the time they had with her instead of the time they don't have with her? Yep.

A friend told me this once. One of my mentors. He helped a man whose 6-year old son was dying of cancer. The father said something like, "It's not fair. He had his whole life in front of him." My friend asked him, "How long do we all live?" The guy said, "I don't know. It's all different. We're all different." My friend asked again, "Then how long do we all live?"

The father looked puzzled. My friend smiled at him, and asked again, "How long do we all live?"

Suddenly tears starting running down his face. He answered, "A lifetime."

My friend smiled at him and said, "Yes. A lifetime. We can choose to be happy in that lifetime, or not. It's your choice. Give you son the gift of being with a happy father. He deserves it."

The point is it's all about meaning. Some parents and kids live 60 years together and don't share happiness the way the guy and his kid did before he died.

Happiness is a choice. It's always a choice.

First off, simply because I could not resist:


And now for seriousness

Yes. Being offended necessitates having morality--and ethics. Whether one is offended or not is wholly based on your opinions and perception which are molded by your morality. Whether you believe this morality comes from a higher source or is merely a human construct doesn't matter and doesn't change the answer. Every culture, every person has ethics. Those ethics don't necessarily have to agree with your own.

Now, let's say you see things from an ethical subjectivist's standpoint, which says that you can't judge something as being moral or immoral--maybe morality exists, but maybe morality does not exist.

Seeing something as being WRONG is what is at the root of being offended. Whether it is wrong because it is actually wrong (like mass murder) or simply wrong because you yourself do not like it or it hurts your feelings or challenges your views on something is all the same because it stems from one's ethical views on the matter.

Most of what drives us is buried within our subconscious. Your superego (y'know from Freud's psychoanalytic theory. The three parts of the human personality)--your higher consciousness--plays a huge role.

So in short, YES it is a personal choice. Not only is is a conscious one but a SUBCONSCIOUS one as well. Therefore it is a HIGHLY PERSONAL choice that may first be made subconsciously before being made consciously, but is still a choice.



hope that makes sense

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Not offended by The Arrow at all,
he/she is a person who takes things extremely literally
and goes on the offensive with irrelevant observations
to bolster his/her feelings of self importance.
The Arrow must have been greatly offended by what I had to say.

If that's your professional opinion, professor, I have even less use for you.

a reply to: TheArrow

use?

oh please. Don't try to act tough. I can tell you're offended. It's ok. I get offended easily too because I'm really sensitive. Own it. If you misunderstood something say then just say that you misunderstood. There's no shame in that.

& on the flip side, If they misunderstood, then i hope you don't back down.

But don't go on spouting nonsense about having use for people on internet forums because that is just too pathetic. And it totally makes you look wrong even if you were right.

originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: TheArrow

originally posted by: Jamie1
The idea is to have beliefs (rules) that make it easy to feel good, and hard to feel bad.

That's why I'm a hedonist.

en.wikipedia.org...

haha nice. I have some very intellectual and battle tested friends who have come to this same conclusion!

One thing I would add, that seems to make things more meaningful than just outright hedonism, is to ask not just does it feel good, but is it good for you?

Eating chocolate cake is awesome until you have to buy new jeans every 5 weeks.

Does it serve you, serve others, and serve the greater good?

Of course it's subjective. It's just something that seems to give people fulfillment, and pleasure.

True hedonists understand the Silver Rule.

"Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you"

en.wikipedia.org...

Much better, in my opinion, than the Golden Rule.

Hedonism serves the greater good by allowing people that need it to experience as much pleasure as possible. It isn't for everyone, however, because a good portion of people seem to need a balance between pleasure and suffering, and I don't get that at all.

originally posted by: rukia
a reply to: TheArrow

use?

oh please. Don't try to act tough. I can tell you're offended. It's ok.

I don't understand your attempt to bait me, it's laughable, considering the accusations you are floating, and the irony involved.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
No...


If I make an intentionally offensive statement about Cancer or Rape how can a person choose which emotional response that will invoke?

That's like saying you can choose to find something funny, or upsetting...
Or you can choose what angers you...

If it's a meaningless statement of course it can be a choice...


But your generalisations on the "taking offence" hypothesis I have explained are flawed numerous times.

This. All day long...Thank you for posting and not making me work my tired brain tonight. Oh, and also ensuring I don't offend anyone, lol.

originally posted by: rukia
First off, simply because I could not resist:

And now for seriousness

Yes. Being offended necessitates having morality--and ethics. Whether one is offended or not is wholly based on your opinions and perception which are molded by your morality. Whether you believe this morality comes from a higher source or is merely a human construct doesn't matter and doesn't change the answer. Every culture, every person has ethics. Those ethics don't necessarily have to agree with your own.

Now, let's say you see things from an ethical subjectivist's standpoint, which says that you can't judge something as being moral or immoral--maybe morality exists, but maybe morality does not exist.

Seeing something as being WRONG is what is at the root of being offended. Whether it is wrong because it is actually wrong (like mass murder) or simply wrong because you yourself do not like it or it hurts your feelings or challenges your views on something is all the same because it stems from one's ethical views on the matter.

Most of what drives us is buried within our subconscious. Your superego (y'know from Freud's psychoanalytic theory. The three parts of the human personality)--your higher consciousness--plays a huge role.

So in short, YES it is a personal choice. Not only is is a conscious one but a SUBCONSCIOUS one as well. Therefore it is a HIGHLY PERSONAL choice that may first be made subconsciously before being made consciously, but is still a choice.

hope that makes sense

Yes, makes perfect sense. Thank you! Great distinctions!!

To me, what I mean by "offended" is an emotional state of upset. Not so much an intellectual or academic decision about what's "right" and "wrong."

Is it wrong to kill somebody?

How about if they have a gun and they're about to shoot your child? Or your neighbor? Or what if you don't know if they have a gun, but you believe they do?

A lot of that is subjective, and has no right or wrong answer except each individual's perception of what's right or wrong.

The biggest thing you hit on which is so important is the subconscious conditioning of beliefs and values.

And to be aware that your neighbor calling you a name is not what's upsetting you, but that you're own beliefs, perceptions, and conditioning is, is the ultimate reclaiming of your personal power.

How you feel is no longer at the mercy of what other people say or do.

AND... you can still work to find solutions to real world dilemmas, change real world injustices, and make progress towards creating the life YOU decided you want for yourself, not the based on the cumulative beliefs of society, but based instead on your own personal beliefs that YOU decide are most useful for you, for others, and for the greater good.

Thanks again! Great insights!!

originally posted by: TheArrow

originally posted by: Jamie1

originally posted by: TheArrow

originally posted by: Jamie1
The idea is to have beliefs (rules) that make it easy to feel good, and hard to feel bad.

That's why I'm a hedonist.

en.wikipedia.org...

haha nice. I have some very intellectual and battle tested friends who have come to this same conclusion!

One thing I would add, that seems to make things more meaningful than just outright hedonism, is to ask not just does it feel good, but is it good for you?

Eating chocolate cake is awesome until you have to buy new jeans every 5 weeks.

Does it serve you, serve others, and serve the greater good?

Of course it's subjective. It's just something that seems to give people fulfillment, and pleasure.

True hedonists understand the Silver Rule.

"Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you"

en.wikipedia.org...

Much better, in my opinion, than the Golden Rule.

Hedonism serves the greater good by allowing people that need it to experience as much pleasure as possible. It isn't for everyone, however, because a good portion of people seem to need a balance between pleasure and suffering, and I don't get that at all.

I wish I could give you a high five across cyberspace for that one.

There is no need for suffering. None. I don't mean initial reactions and sadness, I mean long-term suffering. Self-abuse.

What I think is awesome is once you can get beyond ever being offended by what somebody says about you, you can learn a lot from other people.

Worst two words in the English language?

"I know."

Say that and it immediate shuts off learning anything new.

Thank you for your input and honesty. I would rather somebody be honest and tell me what they think of me than be "polite" and try not to offend me.

Ever been to Hedonism in Jamaica?

a reply to: Jamie1

You seem to be touching on some Eastern philosophies. To me it looks like you're cherry picking Buddhism and leaving out a massive part... compassion and mindfulness. Isn't the best path to not suffering to not cause suffering no matter how perceptually small?

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Jamie1

You seem to be touching on some Eastern philosophies. To me it looks like you're cherry picking Buddhism and leaving out a massive part... compassion and mindfulness. Isn't the best path to not suffering to not cause suffering no matter how perceptually small?

I'm not sure. I never studied easter philosophies or Buddhism.

Compassion... yes. Of course. Helping people see that their own thoughts are the cause of their suffering is compassionaite. To tell them their emotions are at the mercy of what other people say and do is not compassionate.

I couldn't disagree more with the perception that the best path to not suffering is to not cause suffering, no matter how perceptually small.

First, that's just a belief. A framework. A story. There's no way to know if it's true or not. You would be paralyzed with fear if you worried about other people's perceptions and believed that their perceptions caused you to suffer.

Second, no. Just no. In my experience, the super easy path to not suffering is just becoming aware that it's your own thoughts that are causing your suffering.

Just test it. Go around for a day trying to make sure you cause nobody else any suffering. Then the next day just be yourelf and be happy.

Which do you think is easier?

a reply to: TheArrow

lol i think I see what someone's beef with you was.

I wasn't baiting you. I was advising you.

I have no idea what you and the other person were arguing about. I didn't care enough to read it. Nor did I say that you or they were right or wrong merely that your verb choice sounded a bit defensive and overinflated--ie. a defense mechanism. Either that or you have delusions of grandeur. Either way, I find that sort of thing to be rather sad, since I can understand where youre coming from. And sooo...

I just responded to that one comment of yours that I saw. I'm good with psychological analyzing and I'm great with writing and the English language. So I saw what you felt through your words if that makes sense. When you read as much as I do, that kinda thing just happens.

And what's laughable is you accusing me of anything xDD

chill man. & Welcome to the Internet.

My jimmies remain unrustled

a reply to: Jamie1

see, everyone has their own ethics--including me haha

which is why i say it is wrong to kill

i noticed that I'd said that after posting but then left it since it backed up what i said

thanks, btw!

a reply to: Jamie1

To tell them their emotions are at the mercy of what other people say and do is not compassionate.

Not close to anything I said.

if you worried about other people's perceptions and believed that their perceptions caused you to suffer.

Nor is this.

Just test it. Go around for a day trying to make sure you cause nobody else any suffering. Then the next day just be yourelf and be happy.

Not to toot my own horn but I do my best to do this everyday, to not do so is so foreign it seems absurd. I think it's a big part of being happy for me.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Jamie1

You seem to be touching on some Eastern philosophies. To me it looks like you're cherry picking Buddhism and leaving out a massive part... compassion and mindfulness. Isn't the best path to not suffering to not cause suffering no matter how perceptually small?

Compassion and mindfulness are from Confucius (who was a Buddhist, I do believe) who advocated for "the middle path".

I personally like the "do unto others" Golden Rule approach more.

But what of the suffering of the world? It exists on its own. Suffering helps people grow and become great. So, what suffering is good and IS ANY suffering truly bad?

I think it depends on your outlook.

People who go through fire sometimes do incredibly wonderful things that were made possible by suffering.

Knowing and understanding and empathizing with pain is part of what makes us human--and is what compassion is all about.

Granted, I hear you--I too hate needless suffering (or what I would view as needless). And it makes me sad for the world. But then wouldn't TPTB just solve problems without suffering--like euthanasia. Instead of perhaps atomic bombs or whatnot. Even if we try to minimize suffering, I think suffering will occur regardless. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

So what is the best route? I say it's hands-down the do unto others as you want to be treated one. Because what comes around goes around. Karma. You know what I mean

originally posted by: rukia

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Jamie1

You seem to be touching on some Eastern philosophies. To me it looks like you're cherry picking Buddhism and leaving out a massive part... compassion and mindfulness. Isn't the best path to not suffering to not cause suffering no matter how perceptually small?

Compassion and mindfulness are from Confucius (who was a Buddhist, I do believe) who advocated for "the middle path".

I personally like the "do unto others" Golden Rule approach more.

But what of the suffering of the world? It exists on its own. Suffering helps people grow and become great. So, what suffering is good and IS ANY suffering truly bad?

I think it depends on your outlook.

People who go through fire sometimes do incredibly wonderful things that were made possible by suffering.

Knowing and understanding and empathizing with pain is part of what makes us human--and is what compassion is all about.

Granted, I hear you--I too hate needless suffering (or what I would view as needless). And it makes me sad for the world. But then wouldn't TPTB just solve problems without suffering--like euthanasia. Instead of perhaps atomic bombs or whatnot. Even if we try to minimize suffering, I think suffering will occur regardless. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

So what is the best route? I say it's hands-down the do unto others as you want to be treated one. Because what comes around goes around. Karma. You know what I mean

Who is "the world?"

We are all individuals. We collectively make up the world.

None of us deserve to suffer emotionally. Want to make the world a better place? Focus on yourself. Be happy.

If everybody did this then the world would be happy.

I'm not talking to you specifically, but generically. You seem quite happy. I love the glowing heart.

I would like to challenge the perception that suffering will happen regardless. Suffering is not necessary. Pain is not necessary for progress. Nobody has ever taught children how to become aware of what causes their own suffering. It's happening now.

The next generation, and the generation after, will have incredibly more awareness that we have now. I can imagine 50 years from now people will look back at our generation and be amused that we allowed our own beliefs to upset us.

Of course. Like Duh Obviously. If you choose not to be offended, you never will. "Your opinion. of me is none of my business" (don't know who said that, maybe someone here?

None whatsoever. Your face offends me. Do you have to change it? Of course not. LIKE. DUH. OBVIOUSLY.

No one has ever been offended that didn't want to be. Period full stop.

a reply to: Jamie1

first, I agree that people should be the best they can be and do good for others and be kind and be altruistic and stuff. Yes. I'm all for doing that. But I don't think that that would make peace a reality. Unfortunately. Nor would it end suffering. But before I get into that let me again address suffering a bit better.

but who wants a life free of suffering? that's what death is about--or rather, what Heaven is like. life is about living. it's a wonderful opportunity to have, the experience that is this existence. living is about the experience. that is what makes it fun. I've gone through some stuff--i'm sure we all have. And I wouldn't trade it for anything. Even though it's been absolutely awful at times. Like really painful and sad. I still value what I've been through. I've also almost died numerous times, but have not and man that was exhilarating. I just trust in God because everything is gonna be great. I have faith. So my life is free of suffering. I think you missed my point a bit.

Who decides if suffering is bad or good? If it brings about good isn't it good?
Evil only ever serves to bring about an even greater good. Paradise Lost by Milton. Go read it it's pretty good. That's why evil loses in the end. Because no matter how hard evil wants good not to happen, good happens anyway. That is precisely why we define that good is good. I'm getting a bit philosophical now so i'll stop since i think you said you hadn't studied that.

Anyway, living a life without struggle is a life not worth lived. Where is the integrity in living idly and in leisure at all times? Sure it feels nice. But it gets boring. What fun is there if there is no challenge? If you yourself are happy with being unchallenged then cool but I don't see the merit in that. Where is the integrity in living without overcoming adversity? Where is the pride?

Name one person that has done great things for the world who DID NOT suffer and credit suffering with strengthening them into what they became?

Reminds me of the society we already live in. The one that likes to forget that pain exists and does everything to make it go away. Look at where that's gotten us. lol


point is: suffering is only suffering if you see it as suffering. it can be seen as a test that you pass, or a trial, or a challenge. Something positive. Poop happens. Nothing will change that because that is the way the world works like it or not. People are not capable of peace because we are too evil. Evil exists within us all. So we have to choose good. Problem is, people are jerks. And that is why communism in the pure form is impossible and why utopia doesnt exist. Look at what happened to Atlantis according to Plato? Same deal. You speak of ideals but you are thinking in the clouds, I have to say. You need to look at this objectively. People die therefore suffering will never end. As long as death exists suffering will exist. As long as evil exists suffering will exist. Those are facts that cannot be refuted.

Bad people exist. If you don't believe me then wow I'm happy for you that you've led such a sheltered life and I hope that you never meet a bad person. But just because a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it doesn't mean that it doesn't make a sound.


So yeah, it's up to good people to fight against evil (that wants suffering). Of course. But that doesn't make the suffering totally bad because evil has no point and that's why it can't win. Good always triumphs.

Granted, if you don't believe in God then of course you'll say that peace is possible, but I say history speaks for itself. And history repeats itself. Therefore there is literally no chance that humans will bring about peace and end suffering. Everything has been done. Nothing is really that original. People have thought like you since time began but that didn't change anything. In fact, by not seeing that good must fight evil, merely focusing on creating peace actually causes evil to grow due to inattention and obliviousness. Read this hypothetically if you aren't a believer in a higher power. Because I'm not one to argue about if such a power exists or not since such arguments hold no fruit.

originally posted by: Jamie1


Anticipate possible things that are going to come up in the future, possible adverse situations, and decide now, while you're in a good state, how you will respond to those situations instead of waiting to react when they happen.

Try it.

Plan now on how you want to respond on ATS when somebody says something that you used to find offense. Decide now. Then when you feel offended, just reply what you decided now instead of from a state of reaction.

I have spent my whole life planning for the future, saying and thinking I would react one way, only to find that come the situation all my best laid plans go out of the Window. I TRY to live by the golden rule of "do unto others as you would like them to do unto you". But the keyword there is TRY. I have spent years trying not to be wound up by propaganda news. But as the world deteriorates ever deeper into despair so do I.

Its not the stories in my head that upset me, its the stories shoved down my throat as truth that get me angry. Not understanding how we can be so gullible upsets me, it really makes me sad that even intelligent people can be misguided by ridiculous ideologies. Its sad that children are being sexualised from an early age, and that music is being used to corrupt our kids perceptions of the world. Paedophiles in very high places that have gotten away with their crimes for decades infuriates me. This fury drives me to enlighten as many people as I can to the sick and evil corruption that poisons our politics. Sorry I cannot just turn a blind eye, for my own selfish happiness. We are communities, which are being eroded by multiculturalism. We are families that are being broken by ridiculous justice systems that pit partners against each other for personal gain. Single parent families are now at epidemic proportions, children who will never see much other than the inside of a prison cell.

I know this life, I have lived it my whole life, most of my childhood friends all became criminals, not through choice, but because of lack of opportunity. I have also had my own run ins with the law, but I have been lucky, I was gifted with above average intelligence, and a decent memory. Which is a rare thing where I have grown up. Im not trying to blow my own trumpet, I have always been pretty good at understanding things and concepts, so Im often explaining them to others. Im not special, jusy luckier in the intelligence department. Even still, I have never really had anything but a dead end job. The opportunites simply are not there, am I supposed to just pretend to myself that everything is fine and dandy?

Tell the black or asian guy that cannot get a job to support his family because of racist attitudes that its his own choice to be happy. Tell the kid that is abused by his parents, who fails his education, that he really has a future.

Im not saying its impossible, just highly unlikely. Statistics prove that opportunity goes to those who already have. While those that dont have to work 10 times harder to create their own opportunities, tell them they can just choose to be happy.
Tell the kids living in Gaza that everything is alright, its a choice.

I have seen kids living on rubbish dumps in Kenya with beaming smiles and happiness, drinking milk sachets from the rubbish to survive, but they are happy, its because thats all they know.
Personally here in London, what I could have, is rubbed into my face every day, I know better. Im not happy.
You are really oversimplifying the human psyche. I shared your attitude a few years ago, but things happened and now I dont agree.

To an extent you have a point, but as a catch all for everybody, not a chance.

All my sadness and pain has given me the strength of character and the strength of will I would never have had otherwise.

It would seem from your description of your "traumatic" experience I can only surmise that your experience is what gave you the strength of character to overcome it. The experience comes first, then having to get on with life is what drives us to overcome. The bigger things we overcome, the stronger our character and resolve becomes. Some of us manage to overcome, others simply cannot.
Just because you managed to overcome yours, dont make the assumption that we all can. We are all different.

"What doesnt kill you makes you stronger"

It's simple. It's a combination of what happens out there and what happens inside. Second, it's different with different people, with a range which is attributed our species and unique circumstances.

Nature and Nurture. It's both.

See just because someone acknowledges the environment can affect us doesn't mean they're surrendering to it. A military general acknowledging we'll lose the war doesn't mean he doesn't have a winning spirit. A general who believes in his country will die fighting for it.

Have a look at home improvement. Fixing a screw on a ladder yourself is an empowering experience. Don't have to call Ladder Repairers Incorporated. It's a great feeling when you do things yourself. However, sometimes we can't do things on our own. Sometimes we really do have to call a Ladder Repairers Incorporated. The hope is we don't forget how to do things on our own. The challenge is to do both and to know your limits.