Kochs and Walmart Fight to Stop Solar Panels

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: Grimpachi

Sure it's possible that Walmart is playing both sides.

btw, how much does it cost to install solar on a house?

The cost depends on if you are doing it yourself or if you have a contractor instal it and on how big a system you get.

You also factor in any rebates you can qualify for and how it will affect taxes depending on self instal or contracted.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: Jamie1

I can blame the representative cause they are the extension of the lobbist power.
The lobbyist is powerless without a rep, the rep is not powerless with out the lobbyist.

When reps lie their way in the it is on them not the people.

No its on the people, for lack of common sense and for being unable to critically think.



1. The people allow the two party system to continue as a team sport despite both party having full control at one time or another and yet the same issues that exist today have existed for numerous decades.

2. Its the individual republican and democrat cheerleaders that don't hold their own party accountable and magically always put the blame on the other party. Yet they also believe that their party is somehow better.

3. Its the people that allow themselves to be distracted from the real issues. The people allow every election cycle to focus on the so called issues (symptoms of corruption) over and over: such as welfare,healthcare, employment,taxes,sexuality,religion,immigration,etc ....

4. Its the people that don't demand that their party solely concentrate on the solutions for the real problem. The real problem is how our elected politicians need the lobbyist money more than our votes to get re elected.

a reply to: mOjOm
The system we had prior to corporations becoming persons was a lot closer to this ideal than we are now.

What really gets me is that people pay quite a bit to have solar panels installed. Then this propaganda calling them "free riders" makes it sound like they are getting energy from the publically funded system that others are having to pay taxes for, when in reality, they pay for energy they use which was not produced by their self funded solar panels, and put into the system energy they create over the amount they use. So that is how this ALEC group spins the facts to justify "they should have to pay" and "like the rest of us" is implied. Unbelievable.

In some states they don't need corporate lobbyist.

These states are the ones raising gas taxes or wanting to tax cars by the mile because cars get more MPG and its cutting into there gas tax money.

States like calif will look for anything they can tax.

originally posted by: TheArrow

originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: soficrow

Dont the Cock brothers have enough money? Off with their heads!

Do they have it all yet?

What will the super intelligent humans of the future think of these times in history, these types of people and their types of actions, and what would they think would be the appropriate thing to do? This is not much different than asking, what would God do, or want us to do?

originally posted by: interupt42

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: Jamie1

I can blame the representative cause they are the extension of the lobbist power.
The lobbyist is powerless without a rep, the rep is not powerless with out the lobbyist.

When reps lie their way in the it is on them not the people.

No its on the people, for lack of common sense and for being unable to critically think.



1. The people allow the two party system to continue as a team sport despite both party having full control at one time or another and yet the same issues that exist today have existed for numerous decades.

2. Its the individual republican and democrat cheerleaders that don't hold their own party accountable and magically always put the blame on the other party. Yet they also believe that their party is somehow better.

3. Its the people that allow themselves to be distracted from the real issues. The people allow every election cycle to focus on the so called issues (symptoms of corruption) over and over: such as welfare,healthcare, employment,taxes,sexuality,religion,immigration,etc ....

4. Its the people that don't demand that their party solely concentrate on the solutions for the real problem. The real problem is how our elected politicians need the lobbyist money more than our votes to get re elected.

Yes, politics is like an extremely competitive industry, but the people who make it up, for the extreme majority, are not competing to sell the best good or service to the people, but they are competing with the other potential politicians as to who will get entrance into the money haven that is politics. Literally, who can be the best actor and liar, to convince the public to vote for them in the popularity contest; then the politician wins, it is really like a game show, and the game and the prize is for that politician to sell their powers to the highest bidder.


They do not care about the general american public is the highest bidder, and the forced payer of their general pay checks and budget...because that is forced, and guaranteed, and there is nothing in that pure act that will explain which corporations get the major benefits from government power, what explains which corporations get the major benefits from government power, is which corporations pay the government workers the most money of course, is this legal? Should it be? Corporate communism, oligarchy, America inc. The United States of a Buisness.

It is right that it is collectively everyones fault for allowing the corruption to exist. And though that doesnt mean we should be very sympathetic for the multi millionaire politicians for having to struggle with the ethics of being confronted with the temptation of more money. The most moral among us, I feel it would be difficult to pass up a check for 400,000 dollars if all you had to do was sign your name, and was pretty much guaranteed you would not be effected negatively in any way.

originally posted by: Azdraik
Meh if you have the money to waste on a solar system you have money to spend on a tax.

Those systems cost more they they ever save as it is. Once those costs come down a lot, and the efficiency increases to the point it makes it worth using, I will hop on that bandwagon, until then it is just a move people do so they can say they are green and saving the planet.

Agreed 100% ....Its too expensive for us as well and people tend to forget you need battery banks to store that solar energy to use when the sun is down. You need an electrician and you you need storage space for the banks.

You will also have to replace your batteries every few years and more often in colder climates.......big big bucks that do not return the cost of the energy you receive. The cost of the panels and the installation process is prohibitive all by itself.
I am not anti solar or green energy but when the costs outweigh the wanted benefit why bother?

Regards, Iwinder

a reply to: ImaFungi

Agree with you and I think we see eye to eye on this issue but I think the following might no longer be the case.

for that politician to sell their powers to the highest bidder.

I think that politicians at one time had the upper hand in the game, but do to their short term vision they lost that power. Now the Oligopoly lobbyist actually have more power than the politicians.

1. Oligopoly Lobbyist clients raised the bar on how much money it takes to run for office and get relected. Obama raised half a billion dollars to run for office.

2. Oligopoly Lobbyist clients control the media and the telecom industries: Both industries shape the persona of the candidates and controls who gets heard and seen in a positive or negative light.

3. The Oligopoly Lobbyist clients control the DNC , RNC and the Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD) via large sum donations. They control who gets put on the list of allowable candidates to be picked by the masses.

In essence politicians need the Oligopoly Lobbyist money and medium to get access to the voters more than anything.

So by the time the politician is allowed to be put on the list of candidates and positively painted in the media: they have already been proven to being team players and are in indebted to the lobbyist .

a reply to: ImaFungi

The most moral among us, I feel it would be difficult to pass up a check for 400,000 dollars if all you had to do was sign your name, and was pretty much guaranteed you would not be effected negatively in any way.

In total agreement!.

Its we the people that are allowing our politicians to be put in very bad situations and expect them to be super humans.

The super human moral ones in reality would never be given a chance to make it on the list of allowable candidates in the first place with how the system is setup.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Well that was helpful.



Perfect answer.

originally posted by: Taupin Desciple
a reply to: Jamie1

Because lobbyists pay off elected officials and everyone but you knows it. The elected officials who have a great deal of tenure are not to be trusted. Go to the right places and you can see for yourself that they leave office MUCH richer then when they first got to Washington. Book deals, good stock investments and investment plans only explain so much.

Wally pays the lobbyists who pay the representatives in areas where solar power is a viable option. The paper trail is muddy beyond recognition, but the end result of higher taxes is as plain as the sun in Phoenix.

There are obstacles that they can't seem to get around though. Schools use the panels as large carports for staff and students, and home builders who are responsible for entire neighborhoods install them when they build the homes.

Well if everybody but me knows it, who is voting the elected officials into office?

a reply to: xuenchen

There isn't any type of answer I can give that will hold piecewise nation wide for every kind of panel offered.

If you are really interested though here is a website for DIY ordering that can give you packages.

www.wholesalesolar.com...

originally posted by: gwynnhwyfar
a reply to: mOjOm
The system we had prior to corporations becoming persons was a lot closer to this ideal than we are now.

Amen Brother!!!! Tell it to all the world my Brother!!! Let them hear the truth just one time....Might just get a few of em to listen up for once!! But I doubt it.

Corporations are the new Golden Calf. We worship every day at the alters of Coka Cola, EXXON and CITIGROUP just to name a few. We sacrifice everything so that they may live the lives we gave up. They have all our Strengths and none of our weaknesses too and can possibly live forever. They are our new gods and we are loyal to them. Even carry their Names(Logo's) and Scriptures(Advertisements) with us and display them proudly, even jealously.

What really gets me is that people pay quite a bit to have solar panels installed. Then this propaganda calling them "free riders" makes it sound like they are getting energy from the publicly funded system that others are having to pay taxes for, when in reality, they pay for energy they use which was not produced by their self funded solar panels, and put into the system energy they create over the amount they use. So that is how this ALEC group spins the facts to justify "they should have to pay" and "like the rest of us" is implied. Unbelievable.

Yes, they are scum bag POS. These are the same people who claim to be libertarian too and supporters of the Free Market. I guess that only applies to when it benefits them. Apparently even the smallest bit of competition and they run crying to the Government which they've got in their pockets and have them Regulate that competition into oblivion. Hypocrites!!!!

The only other thing to do would be to set up your solar and not pour it back into the grid. Just be completely independent and use all the power for yourself while storing the extra. You would then be fully out of pocket for it though which is hard to do. But I know what you mean. Every time I hear some Right Wing/Tea Party or Libertarian talking head say they are for the Free Market I just laugh. There are those who are also on the Right/Tea Party and Libertarian who actually do support a true Free Market but you'll never find them in any position where they might actually be able to implement such ideas.

The fact is, this whole country is all bought and paid for already. It's really just Management restructuring that's happening now. Aside from full on Revolution or System Failure all most of us can really do is watch as the juggernaut continues rolling forward. That or throw ourselves willing into the gears and cogs and machinery of the system itself with the hope that if we cause enough damage it might bring it to a stop before it does something completely irreversible.

Good luck out there folks!

a reply to: Grimpachi

Thank You.

a reply to: Jamie1

Then blame the voters.

The point being it's nothing but a feel good, ad hominem attack on Walmart and the Koch brothers to demonize them. They don't vote, and they don't accept the campaign money.

No, they just fund the brainwashing.

EDIT

(notice the copyright: 2002 Citizens for a Sound Economy)

Wikipedia - Citzens for a Sound Economy:

Citizens for a Sound Economy (CSE) was established in 1984 by David H. Koch and Charles Koch of Koch Industries. Ron Paul was appointed as the first chairman of the organization. "CSE received almost $5 million from various Koch foundations between 1986 and 1990, and David Koch and several Koch Industries employees serve[d] as directors of CSE and the CSE Foundation."[1] In 1989, CSE purchased the financially troubled Tax Foundation and operated it as a subsidiary from CSE's offices until the split in 2004.[2][disputed – discuss] In 2003, Dick Armey became the chairman of CSE after retiring from Congress.[3] In 2004, Citizens for a Sound Economy split into FreedomWorks, for 501c4 advocacy activity, and Americans for Prosperity Foundation. Dick Armey stayed as chairman of FreedomWorks, while David Koch stayed as Chairman of Americans for Prosperity Foundation.

Many people, including quite a few I can think of from ATS, believe that the Tea Party "movement" began with the Ron Paul campaign in 2007. I'd argue that a considerable portion of the country unwittingly attached itself to a manufactured movement due in large part to the astroturfing efforts of the Koch brothers and their pals.

Considering the current state of affairs pragmatically and accepting the fact that people are just as easily manipulated now as ever — possibly more easily — it makes sense to blame the manipulators.

originally posted by: Jamie1


The responsibility is squarely on the shoulders of the voters. If they're so apathetic and ignorant to vote based on party every election, and are swayed by 30 second commercials and yard signs, that's their own doing.

No, the voting system we have is a rigged system. We can not blame a entire population for this, the Kochs and the Walton family are very much a part of the Oligarchy that ensures the voting system stays rigged and the population remains mostly ignorant.

Hopefully my generation can correct this, however I am unsure of this. I know too many of my peers who hold on to the Republican vs Democrat belief system and those types will continue to blame the other side for what is wrong with the nation instead of realizing what is really wrong.

Demagoguery aside, I found an informative article by that conservative propaganda site, Huffington Post.

It's not that complicated.

The issue is solar panel owners can sell electricity back to the utilities. It's called net-metering.

Utility company position is that as solar panel ownership increases, owners of solar panels will be benefiting from the grid, while non-solar panel owners pay the entire cost of maintaining the grid.

The final issue was resolved by adding a monthly fee which on average comes out to $5 a month for new solar panel owners.

Current solar panel owners were given a 20-year grandfathering where they do not have to pay any additional fees to sell their electricity back to the utility company.

Doesn't sound to me like a case of evil lobbyists or bribed politicians. HuffPo is calling it a win for renewable power industry.

So what exactly is the specific complaint you have?

Arizona Solar Energy Fight Ends With $5 Monthly Fee, Major Win For Renewable Power Industry

a reply to: soficrow
Its really pretty simple, boycott Walmart...!

The cost depends on if you are doing it yourself or if you have a contractor instal it and on how big a system you get. You also factor in any rebates you can qualify for and how it will affect taxes depending on self instal or contracted.

a reply to: Grimpachi

You can't do the install yourself if you are talking a serious solar array, your homeowners insurance will say goodbye well before you even plug it in. Any rebates for installing one is tax payers money paying taxpayers to install a loosing system.

Try disposing dozens of batteries without having to pay the environmental fee, then you have to buy dozens more. just to dispose of those battery banks again and again....It is a lose lose situation for the average home owner.

A self install system iffy to say the least, if you don't require a electrician then it aint going to run your sump pump.
Lets not forget the panels fail a certain percentage every year from the installation date, so do your batteries.....its all down hill from the get go.

Regards, Iwinder

Around here, if you have a windmill or solar panels and sell back to the grid, you get hardly anything for it. Another meter is installed. If it gets dark and you use power, you pay the regular rate even though you sold it to the power company at a cheaper rate earlier in the day. So the power company makes their profit on it. Maybe in other states it is different.