NASA's Kepler Finds the Two Most Earthlike Exoplanets Yet

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: andy06shake

Point taken. But if the expense wasn't prohibitive a generation might outlay the funds for a probe for the benefit of future generations.

added... what if speed of light is not a speed barrier at all but a time barrier (which might also explain why we see nothing travelling faster than light). If its possible to punch through the speed of light then time itself might reverse. If so , there might be a goldilocks speed that maintains universal time, so travelling to star 1000 LY takes 13 1/2 years for travellers and observers.

Its a physical barrier in that it is a barrier imposed by physics.

As mass approaches the speed of light it becomes effectively more massive requiring more energy to accelerate at 99.999999999999999% of the speed of light you would need like infinite energy to accelerate any further.

i am not saying David Pares is right, his idea has the strong whiff of the fringe, but if he is right and his measurements are right his thingy (scientific technical term) develops local apparent FTL in an exponential relationship to the power input which is linear. Which is itself unusual per the rules of physics, along with having a reaction in the same direction as the radiated energy (which may be taken as the exhaust for his engine.)

one of these days one of these EM or warp drive things may pan out. a whole olympic sized pool full of engineers and physicists and NASA forum denizens haven't put down Dr White, Canae, the Chinese, Mustafa, and Shawyer or Woodward.

a reply to: JadeStar

Something travelling close to LS has massive kinetic energy compared to surrounding objects. But perhaps its standing still and all the other objects are moving at LS, so it has no kinetic energy! So I don't see it as a physical law just a theory that might be proved wrong. New papers suggest that at least in the quantum world, gravitational and inertial mass are not equivalent.

edit...sorry moving off topic so will desist. Great thread btw.

a reply to: glend

another thing about relativity is it's really easy to confuse what happens in each reference frame. the origin reference frame. the destination reference frame. the point of view of the traveller. and the point of view of someone watching the whole thing from the sidelines.

Woodward's description of what would happen if you sent a wormhole to a star 1200 light years away at light speed is an example. it results in a hot mess of tangled points of view with different times, different velocities and different various other relativistic effects.

for example at the near end if you wait only 59 weeks you can use the wormhole as if 1200 years have elapsed. all near end clocks only show 59 elapsed weeks. the distal end thinks it has traveled FTL due to time dilation. it thinks it made the trip in 59 weeks. someone looking at if from the side lines would not see the wormhole arrive for over 1199 years.

none of these mechanics violate relativity or known laws of Physics. What is believed to be violated is a causality protection postulate based upon the as yet unknown laws of Quantum Gravity via the probably mechanism of Cosmic Back Reaction. When physicists argue that this cannot be so; it is not on grounds of SRT or GRT. its based upon conjectures found in the philosophy that the universe abhors traversible wormholes and therefore future as yet undiscovered physics must prevent it. That and it is assumed that producing warps and wormholes requires exotic matter. which would be a problem except the whole universe is made of exotic energy and matter. it's baked into the math of the standard model, quantum electrodynamics, classical electrodynamics and other branches of physics prior to the renormalization phase of the solving of the basic equations.

from whose point of view is mass infinite? no one can ever actually see anything fall into a black hole because from the point of view of distant observers time slows to zero for stuff falling in. but stuff does fall into a black hole. it has to. and stuff has to evaporate out according to hawking. how can it do that if it appears it never fell in in the first place? see how that can get confusing? who sees what? who feels what? do people on relativity accelerated space ships need 4 years worth of food water and air if they only experience a week or so in flight? if not when they return home how does the fact that they did not starve, die of thirst or suffocate get reconciled with what should have transpired according to the people in the home time frame? if you sent 4 years of food how much is left over when they get home? did they eat 4 years of food in a week? do they need weight watchers? jenny craig?

i think some of the apparent barriers to ftl are illusions of confused reference frames.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

Agree that reference frames is key for a better understanding. Found a page that also argues that time dilution cannot be true as we understand it because we must look at both reference frames. Is it the rocket ship moving at LS away from the earth or the earth travelling at LS away from the rocket ship that experiences time dilution. Perhaps those on a rocket ship travelling 500 LY will age 500 Years, us 13 years! Be great for sending probes to investigate interstellar planets if that was the case.

link

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: stormbringer1701

Agree that reference frames is key for a better understanding. Found a page that also argues that time dilution cannot be true as we understand it because we must look at both reference frames. Is it the rocket ship moving at LS away from the earth or the earth travelling at LS away from the rocket ship that experiences time dilution. Perhaps those on a rocket ship travelling 500 LY will age 500 Years, us 13 years! Be great for sending probes to investigate interstellar planets if that was the case.

link

it gets even whackier if your mode of FTL alibi is a wormhole.

imagine if you and a friend are looking at the near end of a wormhole with the far end speeding towards a distant star at 99.99 light speed. your friend side steps to where they can no longer see inside the wormhole aperture. They might be 10 feet away from you. your friend will have to wait 1200 years to see the other end of the wormhole get to it's destination. you will have to wait 59 days. at 59 days the distorted image of the destination appears in front of you. you can now step through the wormhole and instantly travel 1200 light years distance and 1199.7 something years into the future. 1200 years later your friend sees you arrive out the distant end. you don't like the destination and step back through. you travel 1200 light years instantly and 1199.7 something years into the past.



*as long as the worm hole does not allow you to go back in time to some point before the near end of the wormhole was created or a parallel wormhole of opposite polarity does not exist in the same route as the first wormhole you have not violated the known laws of physics.

Great Subject.
My knowledge of physics is at kindergarten level, but
If space is a vacuum, and we are told "Things" become weightless but still have mass, then travelling at LS should not suddenly create mass, when everything is weightless?
The Earth is suppose to weight, Billions of tons.....but it floats in space, weightless and is attached to the Sun via gravity.
We do not experience "Weight" until we are under the influence of gravity.
On Earth We weigh 200lbs, on the Moon 100lbs, on Mars 150lbs via my guesstimate, using Earth calibrated weighing instruments.
So how can mass be created, when everything weights "Nothing" in space.
Astronauts tell us that LS and above particles pierce the hull of their capsules pass straight thru a human body a flow out the craft all the time in space. If the theory they gain mass (and Weight?) in space, then any pebble should destroy a space ship....and we know that doesnt happen, or at least didnt happen in the past 50 years.

I believe there is a lot more to Universal physics than we have any idea of, in our Earth limited brain capacity.
We are continually bombarded by light waves of the full spectrum on Earth from our Sun, and most probably pass straight thru us.

If Magnetic superhighways exist, and they do NASA has told us, then we should engineer something that can travel on these highways, with little energy expenditure.....like an electromagnetic vehicle.

We, as a species have so much to learn.......an we will.

a reply to: gort51

Weight is a force (mass times acceleration). So you experience weight whenever you are accelerated.

Micrometeoroids do hit spacecraft. It is more a thing of statistics. If we had more and larger spacecraft, we woud see more meteoroid accidents.
www.spaceref.com...
spectrum.ieee.org...

a reply to: glend

The assymetry in the time dilation aka "twin paradoxon" comes from one of the twins changing his inertial frame. And this change is not relative. You can measure acceleration.

So the guy who stayed in his inertial frame of reference will have aged faster relative to the one who moved. When both remain in their frame, both will see the other aging slower (from their inertial frame of reference).

a reply to: JadeStar

Damn, you're good at this. As I've said several times before, ATS is lucky to have you posting here.

Forget what year it was, somewhere in the mid 1990s, but I was at the conference and in the room in Madison, Wisconsin when the first exo-solar system was announced (that was in a press conference rather than in session).

Thanks, once again, for sharing, and I'll come back to this thread to really take in the data and the videos.

originally posted by: Aleister
a reply to: JadeStar

Damn, you're good at this. As I've said several times before, ATS is lucky to have you posting here.

Thank you.

Forget what year it was, somewhere in the mid 1990s, but I was at the conference and in the room in Madison, Wisconsin when the first exo-solar system was announced (that was in a press conference rather than in session).

Thanks, once again, for sharing, and I'll come back to this thread to really take in the data and the videos.

That was 20 years ago this year!

The announcement of 51 Pegasi b as the first planet beyond our solar system orbiting a normal Sunlike star.

October 6, 1995: One of the dates that generations from now will look back at with awe that we did it almost as soon as we had the technology to do so.

Swiss astronomers Michel Mayor and Didier Queloz published the discovery in the journal Nature and then less than a week later on October 12, 1995 American astronomers Geoffrey Marcy and Paul Butler confirmed the discovery by going through data collected by their own San Francisco State University planet search.

BTW: I was born January 7 of the same year or almost exactly 8 months before that announcement

Here's a good summary of how the first ones were discovered as well as other techniques which followed:



At the 20 year mark we are now entering a new area shifting from just planet discoveries to planets characterization as well as new discoveries.

From my mentor: Sara Seager

Hello and Happy New Year to all on ATS, Do any of these Planets have a similar cycle of Day and Night like Earth ?

originally posted by: charles911
Hello and Happy New Year to all on ATS, Do any of these Planets have a similar cycle of Day and Night like Earth ?

Well we've only just begun to develop techniques which can reveal an exoplanet's rotation or day/night cycle. Using the Very Large Telescope in Chile....

Length of Exoplanet Day Measured for First Time - European Space Agency - April 30, 2014

Beta Pictoris b is more than 16 times larger and 3000 times more massive than the Earth, yet a day on the planet only lasts 8 hours.

We'll begin to take measurements of other young or nearby exoplanets when they are directly imaged with some of the massive new telescopes like the 30 Meter Telescope which just started construction in Hawaii and the European Extremely Large Telescope in Chile (also under construction), shown here next to two of the Very Large Telescopes (where the discovery referenced above took place) for size comparison purposes:

a reply to: JadeStar

Hi. No, and I wasn't clear enough and misused the language (sorry) (but thanks for the very good date on the first exo-planet), I meant I was at the press announcement of the first more-than-one-planet exo-solar system (more than one exo-planet found in the same solar system). EDIT: It was at the 1996 meeting, when it was held in Madison, Wisconsin.

glitter telescope! in space no one has to clean it up. but also in space it can be as big as you want:

phys.org...

originally posted by: JadeStar

We'll begin to take measurements of other young or nearby exoplanets when they are directly imaged with some of the massive new telescopes like the 30 Meter Telescope which just started construction in Hawaii...

Some native Hawaiians (and others) are protesting the construction of that telescope on Mauna Kea, citing that it is a place sacred to them, and building the telescope would desecrate that sacred place. They have vowed to keep up their fight against building it, and have said they will take it to the Supreme Court if necessary.

Here's a good fact sheet on that Protest:
Everything You Need To Know About The Viral Protests Against A Hawaii Telescope

originally posted by: haven123
they are real creative names they have given them...

Well, Uranus was already taken.

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: JadeStar

We'll begin to take measurements of other young or nearby exoplanets when they are directly imaged with some of the massive new telescopes like the 30 Meter Telescope which just started construction in Hawaii...

Some native Hawaiians (and others) are protesting the construction of that telescope on Mauna Kea, citing that it is a place sacred to them, and building the telescope would desecrate that sacred place. They have vowed to keep up their fight against building it, and have said they will take it to the Supreme Court if necessary.

Here's a good fact sheet on that Protest:
Everything You Need To Know About The Viral Protests Against A Hawaii Telescope

This is old news, the people still protesting it at this point are fringe. The viral campaign referred to here is the last gasp effort of those who didn't get their way during the first protests.

The leaders of the native Hawaiian groups who originally opposed it and protested already came to an agreement.

The Thirty Meter Telescope would not be the first telescope on Mauna Kea and the study of the skies on a site which native Hawaiians themselves have studied the skies from for generations is not at all a sacrilege.

After its completion, TMT will pay $1 million a year in rent, 80 percent of which will go to Office of Mauna Kea Management for mountain stewardship, and the remaining 20 percent will go to the Office of Hawaiian affairs.

It's already been approved by the state (which has very strict environmental and cultural laws) and is being built. These people still protesting just want more money.

originally posted by: JadeStar

This is old news, the people still protesting it at this point are fringe. The viral campaign referred to here is the last gasp effort of those who didn't get their way during the first protests.

Yeah, but it raised its head again last week when actor Jason Momoa (from Game of Thrones, Stargate Atlantis, Conan the Barbarian, and the upcoming Aquaman film) re-ignited the protest via an instagram post.

The Honolulu-born actor joined an impassioned group of environmentalists and Native Hawaiian activists on Thursday on Hawaii's Big Island to protest the construction of a $1.4 billion telescope on a remote spot atop Mauna Kea volcano.

Momoa has flooded his Instagram feed with photos supporting the protesters and is urging his celebrity friends to support the cause by signing a Change.org petition to "immediately halt all TMT-related construction" and "stop all arrests" of "those standing in protection of Mauna Kea."

Momoa's latest protest last week has since been joined buy a few others:

Singer Nicole Scherzinger (who was also born in Hawaii), actors Ian Somerhalder, Jai Courtney, Jill Wagner, and Momoa's step-daughter, Zoe Kravitz, have shown their solidarity by writing #WeAreMaunaKea on their bodies and urging their collective 8 million followers to sign the petition.

Source and more information:
Jason Momoa Is Leading A Revolt Against Hawaii's Thirty Meter Telescope

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: JadeStar

This is old news, the people still protesting it at this point are fringe. The viral campaign referred to here is the last gasp effort of those who didn't get their way during the first protests.

Yeah, but it raised its head again last week when actor Jason Momoa (from Game of Thrones, Stargate Atlantis, Conan the Barbarian, and the upcoming Aquaman film) re-ignited the protest via an instagram post.

Whatever. Some actor isn't going to stop it at this point. Thanks for letting me know though. I won't be watching any of his work. That will be my protest against his stupidity.