Argentina to buy or lease Su24's?

Hi Guys and Girls :-) Happy new year!

We I've seen this reported on a number of different defence sites:

www.airforce-technology.com...

Ok, I read this one of two ways this may take place, but 4 typhoons with amraams should be able to deal, or is it wishful thinking by the Russians, Argentina or the UK.

So the outcome will be a increased Typhoon sq from 4 to maybe 12, addition or extra strike or the first place the F35 is deployed too?

All ideas thoughts and ideas welcome

RAB

I am not really an expert of the Su 24, but my guess is they are just trying to get a cheap aeroplane so they can have an air force. Argentina cannot really afford much else, but needs to keep some skills and infrastructure in place.

As a threat to the Falklands. Not a chance. Argentina does not have the capability, even with some half decent planes.

Argentina will not go to war over the Falkland's again, mainly because they are no longer a dictatorship.

Regards

originally posted by: paraphi
I am not really an expert of the Su 24, but my guess is they are just trying to get a cheap aeroplane so they can have an air force. Argentina cannot really afford much else, but needs to keep some skills and infrastructure in place.

As a threat to the Falklands. Not a chance. Argentina does not have the capability, even with some half decent planes.

Argentina will not go to war over the Falkland's again, mainly because they are no longer a dictatorship.

Regards

Yes though as a Brit I can never agree with Argentinian claim's to the Falkland's I do understand that it is brainwashed into them in school that they are there's even though historically they have very little claim at all, but yes they are poor and whose fault is that, before the Peron's they were the seventh richest nation in the world? and known as the other America, indeed they were regarded as a land of opportunity just like the US was at one time but then military junta's and corrupt president's well say no more.


The Typhoon is aging but still more than a match for the Sukoi, still the Sukoi is a good plane and after all it is more about the skill and training of the pilots as well as what ordnance they are carrying, air to air missile systems etc.

We very nearly could not defend the Falkland's with there distance from our air field's and galtieri thought that we would not, so we used a very complex method of deploying air to air tankers in wing's that would refuel one another in order to enable the then ancient Vulcan bomber to reach the falklands and make our own little Doolittle type raid, Galtieri got an eyeful that is essential.

Not as you know these are actually bomber's they are maybe purchasing and that is likely so that they can fly posture's near to the Falkland's with our budget cut's to the armed much like at the start of Thatcher's term but even more severe making them think they see a weakness, well there is not, they are now the fortress Falkland's and very well defended, many dummy emplacement's visible but deceptively just on google for instance are there to hide the invisible real emplacement's that are not visible even slightly and there are enough anti air system's to shoot down an Argentinian air craft hundred's of miles form the Falkland mainland's, we also keep a patrolling sub with full anti air and ship capability in the area, at least one and one of our modern destroyers could sink the entire Argentine main fleet, that is not a boast.

I actually think the Falkland war was a tragedy though perpetrated by Galtieri who spent the live's of young men on both side's in a desperate ploy to make himself popular and retain power.

a reply to: RAB

It's a good replacement for the Skyhawk. The last Skyhawks are being disposed of, so parts and pieces are going to get extremely difficult to get in the near future.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
Yes though as a Brit I can never agree with Argentinian claim's to the Falkland's

As a fellow Brit, I agree with you. The Argentinean claim is a joke, but that's for another thread.

Does the Argentine air force still have Mirage jets, as they are probably still worthwhile.

Regarsd

a reply to: paraphi

Six Mirage III, four Mirage 5, and four IAI Nesher.

I suspect it is as mentioned, just a case of Argentinas airforce having something that flys

After all Argentina would be mad to attack the Falklands, they would be on the receiving end of an even bigger beating from the Royal Navy

However there is a possibility that Argentina maybe building up enough aircraft for a surprise one strike saturation type attack to cripple the UK's ability to drill or export oil from the region "temporarily"

Kirchner seems to be more upset about the resources in the region than the people who live there

Argentina have defaulted on a there debt to western creditors, and got in bed with Russia and China with bail outs and military deals including bases, I fully expect tensions to boil over in the near future no doubt the UK needs to place more assets there in future for escorting Russian recon

The UK claims to islands and lands all around this world are ridiculous and will eventually, by force in some cases, be extinguished.

But yes, this topic is for another thread about cleaning up past Imperialism.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
The UK claims to islands and lands all around this world are ridiculous and will eventually, by force in some cases, be extinguished.

You mean as ridiculous as Russian occupation of Japanese territory post WWII, forced annexation of territories like the Ukraine, parts of Finland or China trying to take the Spratley islands for oil?

But yes, this topic is for another thread about cleaning up past Imperialism.

I take it that "imperialism" includes everybody with an empire ever including the two I just mentioned? Like it or not, Britain's claim to the Falklands is legal, and has a long standing historical context that is far more legitimate than many of the outlandish and bluntly opportunistic claims for territory made by others. Oh and the slightly annoying reality that the people who live in the Falklands want to remain part of Britain and not Argentina.

This SU-24 buy/lease deal has probably got less to do with sabre rattling by the Kirchner government (who are no doubt going to exploit it for that) and more about the Argentinian Air Force attempting to hang on to basic core skills.

LEE.

I think the more important issue here is that Russia is willing to lease 12 capable warplanes to a country in financial default in exchange for grain and meat. They are clearly stepping up to increase pressure on the West in a multitude of arenas and ways. This one move will not threaten the Falklands and the imported Islanders living there. However I doubt Argentina is done. And I'm sure that Russia is not even close to done.

a reply to: thebozeian

Correct, the island's were taken from the Spanish in war by the French and the Spanish had to concede but when they left Argentina they gave what they no longer owned the Argentinian's, we bought them from the French.

Oddly many Argentinian's have British ancestry but now see themselves as Argentinian, English, Scot's, Welsh and Irish all had community's there as did most other European nation's but they have never had a true legitimate claim to the Falkland's though there was some legal argument even in our own law's that perhaps they did at one point, the closest the Argentinian's ever came to being given the Falkland's was before they actually invaded them, it would have been down the islanders to decide though and a recent referendum say's they firmly want to remain British.

www.economist.com...
(www.markedbyteachers.com...)

Noeltrostky, when the Argentinian's invaded the Falkland's they acted in aggression against a sovereign nation by invading it's territory, territory they have illegitimately claimed as there own, we are not an empire but we are people and we are still very very angry over that with some thinking we should have bombed the Argentinian mainland but that would have made us the bad guy's, did we no we did not we simply took back what was ours, I lament the bloodshed as does any right minded person as each life is sacred but if you are pushed do you not push back, if some takes what is yours do you not take back, you do know the falklands had not indigenous resident's only animal's so even the Mesoamerican Indian's had no claim to them as people had never lived there, with the exception - you know the Portuguese had a large settlement there for whaling purposes, it was not legal but still they had the largest settlement though they were evicted as it was illegal with us already owning the island's but they it could be argued had more right due to there presence but neither Portugal nor it's daughter colony Brazil have ever layed claim.
Note this also it was in vogue to posture against the British empire in the past as to do so gave an upstart former colony of the Spanish empire more prestige in the latin world, there has been long traditional rivalry between the British and the Spanish dating back to the fifteen hundred's when the Spanish ruled the sea's until there armada was smashed against the British bulwark, something that Spanish prestige never recovered from or did you forget that Argentina is a colony of spain..

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
The UK claims to islands and lands all around this world are ridiculous and will eventually, by force in some cases, be extinguished.

But yes, this topic is for another thread about cleaning up past Imperialism.

Surely you can't mean the Falklands islands as there were... NO INHABITANTS!!! On the islands

AND, neither was there a country called ARGENTINA!!! When British a French colonised this baron unihabited islands

Perhaps Argentina should give the land back to the native South Americans who were massacred to the point of extinction by the imperial Spanish empire

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
I think the more important issue here is that Russia is willing to lease 12 capable warplanes to a country in financial default in exchange for grain and meat. They are clearly stepping up to increase pressure on the West in a multitude of arenas and ways. This one move will not threaten the Falklands and the imported Islanders living there. However I doubt Argentina is done. And I'm sure that Russia is not even close to done.

It tells me that Russia is in about as much trouble as Argentina. Trading 12 second rate attack aircraft for food makes a statement of its own. As far as putting pressure on the West goes, I think that it will take more than 12 planes to do that.

As the topic isn't the Falklands and Argentina's legitimate claims to them I won't continue on it, unlike other posters.

Sure the SU 24's are older, but I didn't hear what variant they are leasing and regardless, the plane has excellent bombing capabilities for a country like Argentina. It's all relative of course. Personally I'd rather hear about Argentina getting long range ship destroying missiles in enough quantities to take down some top of the line destroyers. The Exocet's are great but only in close.

originally posted by: JIMC5499
Trading 12 second rate attack aircraft for food makes a statement of its own. As far as putting pressure on the West goes, I think that it will take more than 12 planes to do that.

The statement being that Russia will work with any country to help them defend themselves against the West. Surely you're not suggesting Russia can't afford to pay cash for meat and grain? Any sources to support that? Of course not, because it's absurd.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

Russia is in the process of one of the biggest military upgrades I've ever seen. That means it's ridiculously expensive. That means they're going to jump at a deal to help them keep other costs down.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: JIMC5499
Trading 12 second rate attack aircraft for food makes a statement of its own. As far as putting pressure on the West goes, I think that it will take more than 12 planes to do that.

The statement being that Russia will work with any country to help them defend themselves against the West.

Yeah, whether that country wants Russia's help or not, eh? On topic, I wonder about Argentinas ability to maintain something like the Su-24 operationally. It would be by far the most complex and advanced fast jet they've ever had. I can only see that being a short term acquisition.

I'm sure they'll come with all sorts of contractor support in a buy or lease. If Angola, Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan can do it, Argentina should have few problems in that regard.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
I think the more important issue here is that Russia is willing to lease 12 capable warplanes to a country in financial default in exchange for grain and meat. They are clearly stepping up to increase pressure on the West in a multitude of arenas and ways.

Or that both countries are short on hard currency, but each has assets the other wants/needs...

Argentina has beef and wheat. Russia has resorted to importing crocodile meat following their tit-for-tat ban on meat imports from the West.
Russia has Su-24's; Argentina needs viable airframes.

It's a win-win and neither side expends hard currency reserves in the deal, allowing them to use it elsewhere.

China is increasingly importing beef. Both China and Pakistan import wheat. I'm slightly surprised that Argentina isn't more interested in a JF-17 deal than they would be in the Su-24. Cheaper to buy/operate, multi-role, and an upgrade on the Mirage fleet.

originally posted by: _Del_

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
I think the more important issue here is that Russia is willing to lease 12 capable warplanes to a country in financial default in exchange for grain and meat. They are clearly stepping up to increase pressure on the West in a multitude of arenas and ways.

Or that both countries are short on hard currency, but each has assets the other wants/needs...

Argentina has beef and wheat. Russia has resorted to importing crocodile meat following their tit-for-tat ban on meat imports from the West.
Russia has Su-24's; Argentina needs viable airframes.

It's a win-win and neither side expends hard currency reserves in the deal, allowing them to use it elsewhere.

So, the ranchers and farmers in Argentina will be paid what, exactly? Spare parts? Roubles? I think they'd prefer actual money.