The Holy Rosary

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest
Jesus did establish the Catholic church in the bible though, not that anyone cares to remember that.

He made Peter the visible head, which is the vicar, our the pope, and He Himself is the mystical head.

As the head, He tells the body what to do, just like the head does in our own body.

So when the Church calls the Rosary its heart medicine, I am inclined to believe this, as I am a lesser part of the body.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
My issue is that no where in the bible does it say that we should pettition Mary in prayer.

Already addressed. We are told to pray for each other and to ask each other to pray for us. Mary wasn't excluded from that. She's a righteous person and thus her prayers to Jesus (her own son) would be powerful.

None of the Apostles mentioned the use of rosery beads.

So what? None of the apostles mention holy communion or music in churches or church benches/chairs or potluck dinners ... etc etc. So what?

Prayer is always directed to the Father.

Yes, and when we ask others to pray for us, then those people pray to God.

Asking Mary, or Joseph, or great grandma Margaret or great uncle Sam (whoever) to pray to God for us is no different than asking the neighbor to pray for us. Why would you exclude people who from praying for you when they are already in Heaven and living with God Himself? That makes no sense to me.

We step out of line by going to Mary in prayer rather than the Father Himself.

Then you are stepping out of line every time you ask your neighbor or your relatives to pray for you.

Have you ever looked at what people say in the Hail Mary?

Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you - pure scripture. It's the greeting that the angel of God gave to Mary when he came to tell her about being the mother of Jesus.

blessed art thou among women - pure scripture. That's part of the prayer/prophecy of Mary when she said all generations would call her blessed.

blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus - No problem there ...

holy Mary, Mother of God, - Jesus is God Incarnate. She's His mother. Factual statement.

pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
And there is the part about asking her to pray to God for us ... just like we ask others to do for us.

The two other prayers of the Holy Rosary - the Our Father and the Glory Be. What possible issues could there be with either of them? The Our Father was given to us by Jesus Himself. The Glory Be gives worship and glory to the Holy Trinity - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

a reply to: backcase

Jesus established His Church, not the Catholic Church. Anyone who believes that Jesus died for our sins is a member of His Church. On the other hand, only the followers of the Pope are members of the Catholic Church.

"You are Petros (small stone), and upon this petra (foundation stone) I will build my Church"-- Mat 16:18

We already know that Jesus Himself was the cornerstone (petra) on which the Church was build. Peter confessed that when he identified Jesus as Christ. Each individual believer is a brick which is layed on the cornerstone to collectively establish the Church. Peter, being the first to confess the faith, is the first brick (small rock) to be layed upon the cornerstone.

The Church was not established on Peter, and Jesus did not appoint him Pope. Peter was an Apostle who delivered Jesus' message to the people. Whatever he "bound on earth was already bound in heaven" and whatever he "loosed on earth was already loosed in heaven." This was a depiction of John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already."

Jesus is the only Head of the Church body. Peter had a very high place in the body, but he is somewhere mixed in with the rest of us.

So as I was saying, not once did Peter ask us to use rosery beads, nor did any of the Apostles or Jesus tell us to pettition the dead to pray on our behalf. We can go to one another to pray in groups, but we are to pray to the Father in the name of the Son, not Mary. What we ask in the Son's name is given to us, not what we ask in Mary's name.

God made it clear that we should seek guidance from Him, not from the dead, who have no authority.

a reply to: FlyersFan

So what? None of the apostles mention holy communion or music in churches or church benches/chairs or potluck dinners ... etc etc. So what?

Ok. First off, Jesus Himself started the Communion..."do this in remembrance of me". And singing praises to God is an OT tradition. What do you think the Psalms are? They're songs. People are usually most comfortable at church while sitting, and potlucks are a function of the Church community acting as family. So I dont really see your point there.

Why should anyone have to recite a Hail Mary, when the Holy Spirit already interprets our groanings for us. The Holy Spirit is the one that tells God what we really need, and when asked in Jesus' name, it is taken under consideration. Mary has no part in the process. Its nothing more than redundant ritual.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

What you have just said is correct. However, Mary is considered to be the spouse of the H.S. After all the bible says that she became pregnant with Jesus after the Holy Spirit 'overshadowed' her.

In his own ten commandments God says thou shalt not commit adultery.

So, the Holy spirit made Mary pregnant and by his own law that he wrote, Mary becomes the wife of the Holy Spirit. Catholic tradition teaches that yes, Jesus had brothers and sisters. But that was because Joseph had more than one wife. Mary is said to have remained a virgin throughout her human existence.

So, following Catholic tradition, Mary is far more than a vessel. She is the wife of the Holy Spirit, which means in the kingdom of heaven, like her son whom she would be nothing without, she holds a unique human position and perspective in the chain of command up there.

She does not replace The Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit, but she is close to all of them and she can definitely ask for their favour on our behalf.

a reply to: markosity1973

In heaven, the individual is not given in marriage, so Mary is not the spouse of the Holy Spirit. That is unbiblical. Mary, just like the rest of the Church is the bride of Christ.

Mary was born with the same temptation or propensity to sin like the rest of us, inherited from Adam and Eve. It is just like we all inherited death from Adam and Eve, nothing more. The only one that didn't sin was Christ Himself since He is God.

The Rosary is a good meditative tool for some people and if it can help people out who use it, then I say go for it. Christians do not worship Mary. now between all the denominations, how much emphasis they place on her is different, some believe her to be the Mediatrix, others the Theotokos and even some, that Mary wasn't all that special. It all depends on the point of view.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Actually the Orthodox claim the title of "Catholic" as well, not just the Roman Catholic Church. Catholic really only means "universal".

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: markosity1973

In heaven, the individual is not given in marriage, so Mary is not the spouse of the Holy Spirit. That is unbiblical. Mary, just like the rest of the Church is the bride of Christ.

It does not go against anything in the bible as it stands today. Just because something is not written in the bible, it does not mean it isn't so as long as it's harmonious and non contradictory.

As for Mary, she is different because she is the only human in existence to bear the son of God.

She is not the bride of Christ, she is the mother of him. She is also considered to be the mother of the church.

a reply to: markosity1973

You are following the inventions of man. The bible states that the Church is the bride of Christ. If Mary was a believer in Christ (and she was), then that makes her a member if the Church and a member of the Bride of Christ. Those are the logical conclusions drawn from the word of God.

What you are suggesting are ideas invented by a so-called Pope who draws his authority from a misinterpretation of Matt 16:18.

The Bible says nothing about Mary being the spouse of the Holy Spirit, nothing about asking a dead person to pray for us, and nothing about following an elected official in a fancy hat who calls himself the Vicar of Christ.

I suggest you re-evaluate the catholic doctrine against what the bible has to say. If you look objectively, you will see that they do not harmonize at all.

Mary is not from the house of David, that would be Joseph.

Hail "Full of Grace", "The Lord is With Thee"

Just another woman? And a sinner? Lol

"The Lord is With Thee". Who else in the Bible was this directed? Study that. Just another woman, lol. Is this just an offhand comment? Do non-Catholics just ignore these offhand comments? THE LORD IS WITH THEE! Just another woman lol

"Blessed are you among women...AND...AND....AND blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." Just another woman lol

Before there were Bibles, common folk didn't have the psalms at their finger tips, only the monks, and other copyists. So, instead they prayed a Hail Mary instead of each psalm. That's why there's 150 Hail Mary's (15 decades) in The Rosary. (This is one explanation, I just thought it was cool). Nobody really knows the exact history of The Rosary.

The mother of God, just another woman. LOL

Ark of The Covenant, just another woman, LMAO!

The Woman of Revelation, squashing the snake underfoot, just another woman, *sigh*

My mother, your mother, EVERYone's mother, just another woman. Ya, right

a reply to: backcase

The Catholic Church gave the world the bible. I think The Catholic Church knows what it contains. ALL Catholic teaching, is inspired and based on scripture.

"There's maybe a 100 people who truly hate The Catholic Church, but millions who hate what they perceive the Catholic Church to be"

If you want to really learn facts, what The Catholic Church actually teaches, please consult the catechism of The Catholic Church. It's a beautiful read, and will hopefully assuage some of your ignorance towards the largest Christian Church on earth. 1.2 Billion people, 1/5 the earth's human population.



a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

a reply to: Ignatian

Do non-Catholics just ignore these offhand comments?

I didn't! I'm a non-Catholic and an Ex Christian, AND a Pagan, Buddhist Atheist, and I'm appalled, but not surprised, by this kind of attitude toward the Mother of Jesus from other Christians! I posted my argument earlier in this thread.

To Jesus, through Mary.

No Mary? No Jesus

Jesus is the head of the mystical body, The Church. Mary is the neck.

"Then, He said to the disciple, behold, YOUR mother!!" For the record, Mary was not John's mother. So? What did he mean?

Our Lady of Guadalupe, pray for us.
Mary, Queen of Heaven, forgive them, they know not what they do.



a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

a reply to: Ignatian

The Catholic Church gave the world the bible. I think The Catholic Church knows what it contains. ALL Catholic teaching, is inspired and based on scripture.

The catholic church gave the world a translation of the scriptures, the actual Greek and Hebrew texts were around long before the catholic church. Just because a catholic translated the bible doesnt mean the popes actually know what they are talking about.

It doesnt take much to see through the catholic doctrine. Just read your bible.

a reply to: Ignatian

I would assume that you wouldn't be astonished. Being a Catholic myself I walk into these arguments daily. I convinced a Muslim of the truth today, that Jesus is much much different from being 'just a prophet.'

You are 99.9 % wrong in everything you just typed.

Exception, yes, there have been popes who have no clue what they were talking about. Except in matters of faith and morals, then of course, they are infallible. It's The Holy Spirit at that point. The Holy Spirit ultimately leads The Catholic Church.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Most prophets don't come from virgin mothers. Muslims will accept that Jesus, the prophet, was born of a virgin. Ask them then, who was the father of Jesus?

a reply to: backcase

How can you "see through" The Catholic Church?, you don't even know The Catholic Church. You definitely don't know scripture.

What/Who is your authority? Do you just make this stuff up?

"If you're not with us, you are against us"

WE are The Catholic Church. Growing by millions daily. Get used to us. You think you've met evangelicals, Wait til you meet a Catholic Evangelist.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You are basing your entire belief in Jesus and Christianity in general in the new testament. This in itself is not a bad thing, as everything in there is the truth.

HOWEVER

The new testament was settled upon by the council of Nicea - several hundred years after the formation of the early church. Many things were changed or dropped by the council to suit Roman society of the day. Remember, Constantine decided that Rome would become Christian after a vision and Roman society, especially leadership was heavily masculine. Women had a place, but it certainly was not in leadership roles.

One such example is Mary Madgelan. In the early days she was considered the ultimate bad girl turned good role model and was highly revered. The council of Nicea got rid of her, preferring to only have male role models in the form of the disciples in tne bible we know today.

Just because the council of Nicea chose to leave things out of the new Testament does not mean that they are not true. Remember, you are trusting a bunch of people who never met or knew Jesus because they were making these decisions several hundred years after Jesus left us.

So who has all the information on the pre council of Nicea church? Why the Vatican does of course in that immense and fabled library.

As Catholics we embrace the new testament in it's entirety, but we also accept that there are truths about our faith that are not in there as well. We accept that the Vatican is the repository of knowledge on all things Jesus and therefore can make definitive statements that may be extra (as opposed to non) biblical. Which is how and why we accept Mary for who she is.