You have been sentenced to death for disobeying a direct order.

a reply to: PaddyInf

So our cops can guess and kill people over it?
Sure this one they got right but is that really how we want things to go down?

He was killed for not following orders, they didn't know about the gun do it can't be what he was killed over and that is scary

Police can obviously shoot a person for any reason, even just because they want to or old pay back.

Do your best to avoid any interaction with them.

a reply to: PaddyInf
Can you show the evidence where the cops told him to "stay still" and he did not?

And where and how this led to the shooting.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

So the victim "had a gun". How do you know cops didn't put it there?
Philly has a bad reputation on both sides of the law.

Cop yells get down and you hesitate, the ground is wet. Maybe you want to move to the back of the car
where its drier and you can see. Maybe you've got a bit of PTSD over
this kind of situation. Maybe there are conflicting commands. Your ID
is in the car. Maybe the cop is seething over the cop deaths in NYC and
is a little jumpy. This has CYA mode all over it. This is where a good camera
could really help.
I'm glad I'm not on the grand jury for this one.

Yes, a stop is one of the most dangerous situations. But cop killings aren't
as common as you think. Its like airline accidents. Big news when it does
happen. Being a cop is a lot safer than truck driving for example.

About half the guys who are cops shouldn't be IMHO. Good policing makes
a huge difference. I've personally seen both kinds.

originally posted by: Jaellma
a reply to: PaddyInf
Can you show the evidence where the cops told him to "stay still" and he did not?

And where and how this led to the shooting.

The original source from the eye witness stated that he heard the cops shout "don't effin move" before the shots were fired. Sounds fairly simple.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: PaddyInf

So our cops can guess and kill people over it?
Sure this one they got right but is that really how we want things to go down?

He was killed for not following orders, they didn't know about the gun do it can't be what he was killed over and that is scary

It's always a guess. If you wait until you get a perfect look at the gun it may be the last thing you ever see. They were reacting to a threat as they perceived it.

As you say this one got it right. If he hadn't fired we may be reading about another dead cop.

As you say this one got it right. If he hadn't fired we may be reading about another dead cop.

Maybe we would not be reading, for lack of reporting, that neither a citizen or a cop got shot...

a reply to: PaddyInf

No it is not always a guess.
They had no idea that this guy had any sort of weapon, they shot him for going back in the car.

I am sure you seen the video of the guy got shot for going to get his ID and this is the thought process that leads to it.

Yes he could have been going for the gun, he could have not been.
Shoot, the gun might not even been his and but the drivers that just said it was his.
Lots of info still needs to come out in this case.

I think all young black men should invest in a tiny remote camera that links directly to another phone or computer. when you see the xmas lights in your rearview mirror, turn it on, that way you will be covered. maybe black parents could put the same thing into the cars that their own kids drive in, too. tell them that as soon as they get pulled over to turn it on.
the LEO's would not be able to erase it, becuase there would be a recording at a different location.

originally posted by: Jaellma
a reply to: PaddyInf
Can you show the evidence where the cops told him to "stay still" and he did not?

And where and how this led to the shooting.

Watch and LISTEN to the video I posted on page #1 of this thread. Your answer is there.

So the day has come when not doing exactly as an police officer states means you are killed. Looks like we found God.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

He had prior issues with the police, standard procedure to take out the riff-raff. We really need to step up the extermination process. This death by cop stuff is moving too slowly. How soon before we see police massacring people? Or do you think that they will save that for the military that are willing to do it? Maybe they will bring in Blackwater (cka, Academi) to help round people up and get rid of them?

TPTB have got to step up their game, too many people are waking up to the joke that is the USA and the puppet masters that are behind it.

a reply to: roadgravel

And this incident will be parroted and parroted about what could have or might have happen in future shoots where they don't find a gun.

Again,
if only the officer had a body camera- or a firearm mounted camera...

The whole story would be right there on video for all the world to see. Then we'd know, with at least some certainty, if this guy had his hands up or if he was pulling a gun on the shooter.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: PaddyInf

No it is not always a guess.
They had no idea that this guy had any sort of weapon, they shot him for going back in the car.

I am sure you seen the video of the guy got shot for going to get his ID and this is the thought process that leads to it.

Yes he could have been going for the gun, he could have not been.
Shoot, the gun might not even been his and but the drivers that just said it was his.
Lots of info still needs to come out in this case.

Yep lots of info does still need to come out. What I can tell you is that if you are stopped by the police you don't pre-empt what you THINK they want. Their training is such that any sudden moves that are contrary to what they telly you to do may be considered a potentially life threatening one and to act accordingly.

Routine traffic stops do not usually happen with guns drawn. If a cop stops you with weapons drawn and aimed at you then you are likely under suspicion of a potentially dangerous crime. You certainly don't go diving into the back seat of your car after being told to stay still.

Look at it from the cops perspective. You have stopped a car with 2 people in it. You have reason to approach with weapons drawn (we still don't know what they are so I won't speculate). For your own safety you order them to stay still. Instead one of them goes for the back seat. You can't see what's there. You know from your training it would take less than a second for the suspect to start shooting at you if there is a gun. You also know that it takes at least that long to register and act if you wait until you can positively ID a weapon in the dark. Simply put the suspect could be shooting before you even see the gun.

You are in a country where many people have relatively easy access to firearms and where thousands are shot dead each year (no 5th Ammendment arguments please).

Life and death decisions happen in split seconds.

Would you really wait for that first shot, the one that could kill you, before you react?

Question. Eyewitness said he had his hands up .. and had a hand on the door. How do you have "hands up" while having a hand on the door?

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
Sadly, black lives don't seem to matter to those who own them.
Living by the gun is pretty desperate and a disproportionate number of young men make that choice.
This is NOT the byproduct of a normal, healthy environment.
Sad too that our police have to take so much crap for defending their own lives.
I sure would were I in that blue uniform.

If our soldiers can handle being shot at first before opening fire I think it's only fair to ask the same of our police. Was the guy going to grab that gun and shoot at the cops? It's a possible outcome, but the police never gave him that opportunity.

originally posted by: PaddyInf
Life and death decisions happen in split seconds.

Would you really wait for that first shot, the one that could kill you, before you react?

Would I? I don't know. I expect the police to though, they're supposed to be held to a higher standard than me. What could have happened simply isn't good enough for a position where the person is put into thousands of potentially dangerous situations over a career, because when we allow actions based on what could have happened instead of what had actually happened people die over things they didn't do and we are seeing it all over the place.

As a serving soldier myself I can happily say that in these circumstances I probably would have opened fire. Soldiers, citizens and police do NOT have to wait until they are being shot at before they open fire. This is a common misconception. A soldier/police officer/citizen has an inherent right to self defense. No one can take this away from us. It is a recognised human right.

Self defense does not mean that someone has to be in the act of actually attacking. I just have to be able to demonstrate that I felt in direct danger for my life or the lives of those around me, and that there was no other reasonable way to stop the threat without suffering harm. This includes preemptive actions to remove the threat before actual harm is caused. The difficult part (as we can see from the differing perspectives demonstrated in this thread alone) is actually proving that you felt that there was no other choice, particularly if you did act first as in this situation.

In this scenario the suspect made a move that could be construed as unreasonable and potentially aggressive in the circumstances from the view of the officer. The suspect was faced with police officers who have their weapons drawn and aimed at him and who are giving clear instructions for him to stay still. These instructions are given for the safety of the officers and the suspect. He decides (for whatever reason) to ignore these instructions and instead reaches for something that could not be identified by the police.

Anyone who has been in life or death situations will suffer from a degree of perceptual distortion. Time slows down (or speeds up), the ability to gauge things such as distance becomes less accurate, details such as colours merge, judgement becomes blurred etc. This is one of the reasons that no two witness statements are ever the same following an incident. It is why it is difficult to count the number of shots fired in a shooting. It is why, under stress, you can "see" or "hear" things that never really happened. This is a concept that is difficult to fathom until you have been faced with the phenomenon. It is all part of how the INDIVIDUAL perceives the situation.

It is very likely that in this situation the police reacted to the incident as they BELIEVED it to be. For a more in-depth view on perceptual distortion and its effect during law enforcement shootings I would recommend THIS article from the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin. It might give you an insight into the science of how a shooting goes down from a police officers perspective before you jump on the 20/20 hindsight bandwagon.

Since this story is very fresh, I would wait for more details of the case to come to light before I weigh in with my personal opinion. On the surface it sounds fishy, but we don't know why these two men were pulled over, nor why the police were initially so aggressive.

I reserve my judgement.