To Christian fundamentalism in the US

a reply to: undo

How? Nothing belongs to us. Even our very souls belong to God.

You just took the verse literally when it was meant to be understood spiritually. Pretty much everything Jesus said was meant to be taken spiritually -- which is why he used so many parables. The very parables themselves were meant to lead you to understand that Jesus doesn't speak of himself, but of Father -- he spoke of spiritual things -- the word lead you to the spirit - shepherds you to the awareness of the spirit.

originally posted by: doompornjunkie
a reply to: JUhrman

Answer: When this

Became about this

Nail right on the head right there!

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: undo

How? Nothing belongs to us. Even our very souls belong to God.

You just took the verse literally when it was meant to be understood spiritually. Pretty much everything Jesus said was meant to be taken spiritually -- which is why he used so many parables. The very parables themselves were meant to lead you to understand that Jesus doesn't speak of himself, but of Father -- he spoke of spiritual things -- the word lead you to the spirit - shepherds you to the awareness of the spirit.

oh i know but there's this niggly little thing called "context"

a reply to: undo

He was evading them just as he did with all the others who tried to accuse him before it was time.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: undo

He was evading them just as he did with all the others who tried to accuse him before it was time.

i understand that, but the context of the verses was putting the event into a framework of how the believer interacts with authority. sure, earthly authority is ultimately a feature of god's power over time (since some leaders sure don't look like they'd be god's first choice, if'n you know what i mean), however, at the grass roots level, believers have to know the extent of their responsibilities in that regard, otherwise verses that admonish us to be peaceful and follow the laws of lands wherein we live, would ultimately be meaningless window dressing.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: undo

How? Nothing belongs to us. Even our very souls belong to God.

You just took the verse literally when it was meant to be understood spiritually. Pretty much everything Jesus said was meant to be taken spiritually -- which is why he used so many parables. The very parables themselves were meant to lead you to understand that Jesus doesn't speak of himself, but of Father -- he spoke of spiritual things -- the word lead you to the spirit - shepherds you to the awareness of the spirit.

One of the very reasons Jesus was crucified was because some people couldn't help to analyse what he was saying in a literal perspective while it's obvious Jesus teachings are mostly spiritual and mystical in nature.

I have no idea why some Christians would advocate for the literal reading of the Bible since such an interpretation method already led to the killing of Christ.

a reply to: JUhrman

i have several reasons, other than the mainstream reasons given, for why i think they literally put jesus on a literal cross. i think he was the last pharaoh of egypt (and also the first -- but not narmer/nimrod, as i believe the first pharaoh predated written history that we have access to). that makes him the first pharaoh and the last pharaoh, the alpha and omega (which are symbolized by the crook and flail of pharaoh and the rod and staff of jehovah). oh i could talk on this subject for hours and hours and hours and "deep breath," hours.

a reply to: undo

Well, that's a quite a personal and original interpretation of Jesus story, but at least it's an interpretation and not a literal reading


My personal interpretation is quite simple and supported by most texts: Jesus is a Jewish mystic who tried to share his personal experiences of the divine (alongside moral teachings) to the world.

Religions are the social aspect of spirituality, while mysticism/individual spirituality is the personal aspect of it.


It's common for religions, in their quest for social control, to lose sight of the original goal of personal transformation. Jesus simply wanted to remind all that religions are human creations while personal spirituality is divine, universal and eternal.

a reply to: JUhrman

agreed. however, and this is important. as surely as there is light, there is also dark. the dark's job is to hide revelation from you for the purpose of usurping your will. this is a no-no.

remember how jesus likened himself the serpent entwined staff moses raised in the desert to bring healing to the people ? that serpent staff is the symbol of dna, which is the symbol of medicine, since all medical issues are ultimately traced down to your dna and its molecular and atomic function. it's also the tree of life, in the garden. and it's also the tree of knowledge in the garden, because at the time, "knowledge" meant sex (intimate information about someone was gained thru sex). when we became reproductive mammals, instead of copies of elohim, one of those elohim had a fit and demanded our life spans be shortened. he was an environmentalist. he didn't want a bunch of reproductive elohim-mammal copies living forever and over populating HIS planet.

who owns the world? does god? who tries to give the world to jesus? does god? nopers. the bad guy does. he tries to give jesus the planet, in exchange for his fealty. jesus declines.

figure it out.

a reply to: undo

Laws which are just. If David and Jonathan obeyed Saul, Abraham's children may well have been made from stones today. Luke 3:8

You remember that when David did a census that Israel paid dearly for it?

read: biblehub.com...

What was so revolutionary about Jesus is that, to his followers, he is the anointed king - not Caesar.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: undo

Laws which are just. If David and Jonathan obeyed Saul, Abraham's children may well have been made from stones today. Luke 3:8

You remember that when David did a census that Israel paid dearly for it?

read: biblehub.com...

What was so revolutionary about Jesus is that, to his followers, he is the anointed king - not Caesar.

of course, but i have always considered it a multifaceted message. for example, he wasn't particularly fond of money, so it could just as easily be a commentary on how money and god are not synonmous (as you said earlier, god and mammon) and therefore, give the worldly things to caesar and the spiritual things to god. those verses are not spit and dry reading.

the evolution of the tree of life in symbols and cross culturally

a reply to: JUhrman

Splendid OP and very nicely expressed

What i find worrying is that thanks to ze bloody internet, this US brand of anti-critical thinking "Christianity" is making inroads in the UK.

Too many people get their education from Youtube now, and the world is a dumber place because of it, and that's a bloody shame.

I'm no Christian, i can't put my self in one denomination. But i know that much of the world's greatest and most inspiring writing on life "and all that stuff" came from people of faith, examining their faith and their own observations on it.

Once again, a very well put OP, good on ya

a reply to: JUhrman

aversion for science?
that assumes that science was here first and is not just a pack of lies to steer everyone away from the captains chair. Your whole post is very judgmental itself. You seek to avert the truth in your own mind even further by gaining false support for what you believe.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: JUhrman

aversion for science?
that assumes that science was here first and is not just a pack of lies to steer everyone away from the captains chair. Your whole post is very judgmental itself. You seek to avert the truth in your own mind even further by gaining false support for what you believe.

Science was always here, and so was faith. They really don't need to clash, it's human ego on both sides that causes that.

Having been born and raised in the US "Bible Belt" I will throw my opinion out there about this.

I think a great deal of fundamentalism is a result of trust in our elders and ignorance. We trust our parents to teach us what is right. Our parents tell us to obey the church teachings and scriptures. In the Baptist church that I was raised in, no one EVER said "Go read this scripture and then tell me what it means to you." That ain't gonna happen. The church doesn't want you to read and think about what the scripture means. They want you to read it and then THEY explain to YOU what the scripture means. And you are expected to take what they say as the iron-clad truth. This allows a pastor to dictate to an entire building full of people HIS idea of what the scripture means and then he can bend, twist and distort his narrative in order to manipulate those people into behaving a certain way, whether it's inciting hatred against another group of people (see Westboro Baptist church) , giving the church or pastor every last nickel they have (see the mega-church preachers on television) or telling an entire congregation how to vote in elections (see the church I was raised in).

Over several generations of this type of "church," it gets more and more twisted as new generations of shysters and other sketchy folks see it as a way to make lots of money from people who blindly believe what the pastor says because they are either too lazy and/or ignorant to read the bible and think for themselves, or they are blindly maintaining the "family tradition" of going to a specific church or believing in a certain way. Unfortunately, with every generation of people there are also plenty of parents passing on the idea to their children that the pastor is always right, to follow him and do what he says - or else they will go to hell. In my neck of the woods, you will often see entire families who have attended (and still attend) a specific church for generations and generations. Basically, they are taking generations of brain-washing and wrapping it up in the trappings of "family tradition" to make it seem like an honorable and good thing.

God may be perfect. The Word of God may be perfect. But when you add in humans, with all of our faults, it can get real ugly, real fast.

As to why we see more religious fundamentalism in the US, I really don't know. The one time I've been out of the country, I immediately noticed the lack of religious fervor and zealotry that we see here at home. Although, it may have to do with the early colonists and the fact that religious freedom was a driving force in the colonization and settlement of the US. I mean, a lot of those colonists and early settlers are what we would call "religious extremists" today. They were bucking the trend and the establishment in Europe. Maybe that mindset has just stuck with a lot of folks...and then handed down thru the generations.

a reply to: skalla

now you know that you just posted is half false. science is much younger than faith and the church itself. try again

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: skalla

now you know that you just posted is half false. science is much younger than faith and the church itself. try again

Nope, science always existed - it just took time to be formulated into a formal manner and defined as such. The stars still did what they do today, chemicals still acted the same way and so forth. The word is unimportant, the actions and reactions always existed.

The starting of fires relies on scientific principles of fuel, oxygen and heat. Making glues from hides and saps is science as is tanning. And so and so forth.

Science and faith never needed to clash, and very often did not. It's all just ego that causes the clash.

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Sorry but you are wrong. In Germany a percentage of your wages is automatically deducted to the church. No matter if you are a Catholic or Protestant everyone pays unless you go to city hall and sign a peice of paper stating you want to withdraw from the church and if you do that then you can not be buried in any local, state or government graveyard (which BTW are 99% of all graveyards).

It doesn't work like that. First it's obviously completely different from the voluntary tithing in the US. Secondly, the governments will finance the ministers of all cults indiscriminately, based on national demographics. It's about paying a salary to ministers, not about amassing wealth (otherwise your country would be stupid to spend more on its priests than needed). The fact that ministers are paid by the state actually prevent some of the problems found in the US causing the rise of televangelists, mega churches and weird cults.



And even then, you just further prove my point: the Church in Europe is rich too, so why no rise of fundamentalism? Because these things are not related to each other.

Again you are wrong! The state does pay its priests. You should learn more about religion worldwide before speaking as if you are some expert which it is apparent you are far from that. Second..... in your first post you never stated VOLUNTARILY. Now you do. In the future make sure you express yourself more clearly. Religious cults are not paid with German taxes only Catholic and Protestant churches and their priests, rent, clothing AND all of our kindergartens with state certified child providers, elderly care, meals on wheels (feeding the elderly and poor) etc....

Megachurches tend to preach prosperity doctrine, which is not a Fundamentalist doctrine. I am a Fundamentalist, and the only churches I have gone to have been small town churches that preach about sin and repentance, and the salvation of Jesus Christ. Also Fundamentalists are inherently pro-Israel, as Jesus and all of his apostles were Jews, and the Jews are God's chosen people - it says so in the Bible.

Prosperity doctrine is a false doctrine that preaches that you can have anything you want, if you are just righteous enough, and want it enough, and ask God for it and he will give it to you. It doesn't work that way - we aren't promised prosperity in life, we are promised prosperity and riches in heaven. Our reward for our faith in God and Christ only comes after our death. While some of use may be blessed with nice things right now, that is only through the grace of God. There is a difference between grace and mercy - mercy is getting what you deserve, grace is getting what you don't. Through grace we receive many things we don't deserve as sinners, up to and including salvation. This doesn't mean that God is Santa Claus, it just means that he loves us.

Fundamentalist Christianity is founded in the inerrancy of the Bible - that it is the word of God, and the entire thing is the truth. You can't reject certain parts of it just because you don't like those parts. There are so many verses where Jesus told people to give up what they had and follow him, and that they would receive treasure in heaven. This doesn't coincide with prosperity doctrine at all. The Bible also includes God's promise to bless all of Abraham's descendants, which cannot be ignored if you are a Fundamentalist.

Perhaps some of these Megachurches claim to be Fundamentalist, but if they preach prosperity doctrine or are anti-Israel, then they are not.

As for the science versus religion thing - I think most Fundamentalists would be against technology altering our genetics or involving stem cell research, as abortion and tampering with God's creation is wrong, and I agree with this. When it comes to the creation of earth I believe that just as Adam was created a fully formed man, so was the earth created a fully formed world with a history of life. It wouldn't have made sense to drop Adam and Eve onto a primordial world with nothing living there - it wouldn't have been suitable. So all the million year old dinosaur bones were million year old dinosaur bones at creation. That's my opinion - it may or may not be shared by other Fundamentalists. As for physics and determining the nature of the universe - I'm all for it. The more we discover the more beautiful God's creation looks to me. Again that's my opinion.

During the thousand year reign of Christ after the resurrection, I fully expect us to have technology and nice things. It wouldn't make sense for everyone living in New Jerusalem to be living like aboriginal sheep farmers. In the Bible it says the that the least in heaven is greater than any king on earth. The present kings of earth sure have a whole lot of nice things.

Also keep in mind that Fundamentalism isn't a denomination, it's a viewpoint of the Bible and it includes many denominations including lots of Baptist churches, but also many others. There's are some sites that try to make lists, but I haven't found anything comprehensive. I don't think it would even be possible to make a complete list of all Fundamentalist churches with any degree of accuracy.

The OP is misleading and I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.