A stolen legacy. The metamorphosis of nature spirits into false idols.

Many are aware of the pagan origins of Christianity. Since the church superimposed itself over this ancient belief system, connections between the sacred world of nature seem to have been severed. Slowly, the natural world animated by spirit, living, conscious and interactive, faded out of perception.

Was this the intention of the church?

While one can only speculate on the churches true intentions, the fact that the truths behind these ancient beliefs are now absent or a myth remains, and along with accounts from history, hints towards the heritage of a nation corrupted and then erased.

Superficially the Green Man would appear to be pagan, perhaps a fertility figure or a nature spirit, similar to the woodwose (the wild man of the woods), and yet he frequently appears, carved in wood or stone, in churches, chapels, abbeys and cathedrals, where examples can be found dating through to the 20th century.

Over a period from roughly the 6th to 11th Century, a bridge was laid between the Green Man’s apparently pagan origins and the new context of Christian art, and he imperceptibly became absorbed into Christian iconography. What could be salvaged or used from the old pagan beliefs was co-opted by Christianity as far as possible, and what was considered too disruptive or dangerous was strenuously repressed.

The popular practice of tree worship could not be permitted - many sacred trees and groves were cut down or torched by over-zealous priests during this period.

www.greenmanenigma.com...



The icon of the green man was set in stone in the walls of churches instead of seen within and throughout the folds of nature.



Much of the folk lore and mythology surrounding ancient wells and springs in England had goddesses. nymphs, or female spirits associated with them. In pre Christian times the pagans, Druids and celts all shared similar beliefs and stories of sacred water sites, including the magical healing properties of the water that emanated from them, as well as them being doorways to the "otherworld"

The healing and nourishing effects of the holy well/spring waters emanate from the breast of the earth-mother, so it follows naturally that the spirit of the well/spring was feminine.

It is not surprising then that a guardian of the Otherworld is usually found overseeing the holy wells of the British Isles. Although since the Christianization of the wells this figure is generally a saint of either gender, the well-guardian was originally female.

Most dealings with the Otherworld in the Celtic tradition are facilitated by a female spirit or goddess. This is particularly so when the Otherworld is located beneath the earth, which in pagan Britain and Ireland, as in most cultures worldwide, was always regarded as feminine.

The well, therefore, was viewed as leading into the womb of the earth- mother herself, being an orifice from which life springs forth.

Elements of these ancient beliefs persisted through the millennia, and were incorporated into the traditions and customs surrounding Orkney’s many holy wells.

These wells were thought to possess magical properties – offering, for example, the powers of healing, or divination.

With the advent of Christianity, the church tried to eradicate these “pagan” practices but found the veneration of wells very difficult to eradicate

"no one shall go to trees, or wells, or stones or enclosures, or anywhere else except to God's church, and there make vows or release himself from them."
The Penitentials of Theodoris. 7th century AD.

Around 640 AD, St Eligius ordered that:

"no Christian place lights at the temples or at the stones, or at fountains and springs, or at trees, or at places where three ways meet . . .

Really?

I find that a startling contradiction on the churches part.



Hypocrisy oozes from every orifice of the church as accusations of idol and false god/goddess worshipping were the weapon of choice, when in fact these "false idols" and deities were "natural" geological features that were essentially recognised as being animated by "nature" spirits, as opposed to a man made building such as a church, and a man made book namely the bible.

These efforts, however, were in vain, so, in Orkney, as elsewhere, the Church changed tactics. Instead, it tried to absorb pagan traditions rather than eradicate them completely.

As the pagan and Christian practices blended together, the wells gradually became holy wells. Where once they were the haunt of spirits and fairies, they became associated with the cult of a local saint.

The wells remained the places of pilgrimage and worship, but the objects of veneration became Christian motifs, that usually incorporated pagan elements of the original.

www.orkneyjar.com...

The church superimposed itself over this ancient belief system, by building churches near or on sacred sites and synchronising sacred days with "holy" days (holidays) such as Easter, Christmas and Halloween to name but a few. As the goddesses and nature spirits of these sacred sites were replaced with Christian saints, the church persisted to erase the heritage of generations to come and placing itself "in-between" the people and the sacred, Holy Water and the Holy Spirit was now administered by the church, and the doorways to the otherworld were closed.

The witch hunts of the 1600s was a final attempt to stamp out the remaining pockets of goddess/nature worship via demonic association.

Sometimes with creative inspiration you can contact the essences of well priestesses in the Celtic tradition in even the most neglected urban well shaft or pipe that may be the only sign that the sacred waters still flow.

What were the voices of the wells? Were these "damsels" in fact oracles, mouthpieces of the wisdom of the Otherworld? The story can be read on more than one level: it might refer to an ancient priestess order at sacred wells and its subsequent desecration and appropriation by a male priesthood - Druidic or Christian. In Jungian terms, it seems to refer to the destructive force of an over-dominant masculine consciousness and the patriarchal logos principle that reached its apotheosis in the Middle Ages.

Another result of the desecration of the wells, so we are told, is that the court of the Rich Fisher, who showered the land with prosperity and joy, could no longer be found: in other words, the spiritual center of the culture vanished into the unconscious, where in a materialistic culture like ours, it can only be accessed through dreams and visions.

But this center is only hidden, not utterly gone; we still come across echoes of the "voices of the wells" even down to this day.

A number of old churches contain a crypt or grotto that opens into a subterranean spring. This place - close to earth and water - is the innermost sanctum, the hidden holy center of the sacred enclosure.

www.chalicecentre.net...

There are no pagan origins of the church. Satan stole the ideals of God which would later come to form Judaism and Christianity, and birthed other religions. It's simple really. As second-in-Heaven only to Christ, he knew the plan. God's plan for the World, and Christ's sacrifice. The only thing he didn't know was the exact timing of it. That, and the Tower of Babel is why so many of the World's 'religions' sounds the same. Because they all intrinsically tell the same story. There is no such thing as 'nature spirits.' Unclean spirits lie, they'll tell you whatever they think you want to hear, and they are usually right. Because people are generally the same, the same tricks work again, and again. You, have been lied to. Duped. How does it feel? That's what most anti-Christians don't seem to get, the Enemy lies to your face daily, yet they don't seem to mind. When someone lies to me, I get upset. Apparently, I am the odd-man-out in that respect. So be it. I don't tolerate dishonesty. Educate yourself on God, and stop believing half-truths spoon-fed to you from the Enemy of Man.

originally posted by: Chronogoblin
There are no pagan origins of the church.

Aaaaand lets not forget....

Jesus
Jesus and all the events of his life were copied from numerous Pagan stories. The timing, significance and manner of his death, resurrection and birth were taken from the gods Attis, Orpheus, Heracles, Mithra and Dionysus. Even his titles, such as “the Lamb of God” were taken from previous material. All of his miracles were common tricks of Pagans before his time as well. Attis was crucified 200 years before Jesus supposedly was.

Virgin birth
Pagan sun gods and harvest gods were traditionally born of virgins, often a virgin temple priestess...

Mary
Many different ancient cultures used “Mary” or a derivative of that name is the name of their goddess who bore god. This was also the ritual name of the temple harlots of the time who would have sex with those who made offerings to the temple in exchange for a symbolic union with the goddess, whom they were said to represent, just as the priest is the direct representative of God in Christian cosmology. All temple priestesses were considered to be “virgins” despite their many sex partners because the laity were not having sex with the woman, but rather with the Goddess.

Christmas
No one really knows when Jesus was born, possibly because he was not, so the Catholics, in a bid to convert Pagans, set the date of his birth on the Winter Solstice, which is the day when sun gods of many pre-Christian cultures were said to have been born as it is the shortest day of the year and thus signifies light overcoming dark. The tree and mistletoe are also of Pagan origin.

The Cross and the Fish
The cross, other than a symbol of torture, is a symbol of the lingam, or phallus. The Christian cross differs significantly from the Egyptian cross of life which also includes the yoni, the feminine principle. The fish, also a yoni symbol, was originally a symbol of the goddess as well.

Easter
Easter was named for the Saxon Goddess Eostre. The Easter Bunny and the eggs left for good children are German Pagan myths. The image of the god buried in his tomb rising to live again on Easter is a Pagan one. This day marked spring and, therefore, rebirth.

Eucharist
Wine has been used as a symbol for divine blood in many pre-Christian cultures. For instance, worshippers of Dionysus drank it in communion, but Jews, like Jesus and his followers, were strongly opposed to such rituals. Pagans also used wine to symbolize the blood of the goddess, from which all life was nourished. Followers of Osiris ate bread used to symbolize his flesh.

Marriage
Early Christians scorned the Jewish tradition of marriage which they inherited for being too Pagan and based on sexual union, which they saw as the most heinous of acts. Paul even suggests that he may have suffered self-inflicted castration; when someone asked if he was circumcised, he commented that the question did not apply to him. Marriage was added later on to help convert Pagans.

Valentine's Day
Originally called, Lupercalia, this was a day when each person put their name into a drawing and the person who drew their name became their sexual partner for the day. The pieces of paper have been tamed down to be notes of love. Saint Valentine himself was invented in order to give a Christian meaning to the holiday.

The Trinity
Pre-Christian Pagans also had a trinity; it was the Triple Goddess: Maiden, Mother and Crone. It represented all stages of the life cycle. The Fates were one version of this.

a reply to: Chronogoblin

I fail to see how satan plays into this unless he is the church itself.

This is not about the morals or dogma provided by the church. It is about what stood before the imposition of such beliefs.

a reply to: Wifibrains

You can't move in Scottish folklore for stories of saints who caused wells to spring from the ground:

THE annals of hagiology are full of the connection between saints and springs. On one occasion a child was brought to Columba for baptism, but there was no water at hand for the performance of the rite. The saint knelt in prayer opposite a neighbouring rock, and rising, blessed the face of the rock. Water immediately gushed forth, and with it the child was baptised.
Adamnan, who tells the story, says that the child was Lugucencalad, whose parents were from Artdaib-muirchol (Ardnamurchan), where there is seen even to this day a well called by the name of St. Columba.

Electric Scotland

Nice thread Wifi.

It seems Christians draw a line when it comes to appreciating what was created. Why not express our wonder and joy of the creation and all that is there in?

I would think that as long as you give the creator it's due, why not give some lesser praise to those things provided to mankind as a natural blessing from the creator? I don't see a problem with believing that everything is alive with the life force of the creator as we are alive and a part of that creation. If we as living creations have individual personalities, why not individual aspects of all that was created?

I don't think we should praise a well for giving us existence, but fresh, clean, safe water is a life giving blessing provided naturally by creation.

It seems like a tightrope for a Christian to say such a thing, close to heresy I suppose.

originally posted by: Chronogoblin
There are no pagan origins of the church. Satan stole the ideals of God which would later come to form Judaism and Christianity, and birthed other religions. It's simple really. As second-in-Heaven only to Christ, he knew the plan. God's plan for the World, and Christ's sacrifice. The only thing he didn't know was the exact timing of it. That, and the Tower of Babel is why so many of the World's 'religions' sounds the same. Because they all intrinsically tell the same story. There is no such thing as 'nature spirits.' Unclean spirits lie, they'll tell you whatever they think you want to hear, and they are usually right. Because people are generally the same, the same tricks work again, and again. You, have been lied to. Duped. How does it feel? That's what most anti-Christians don't seem to get, the Enemy lies to your face daily, yet they don't seem to mind. When someone lies to me, I get upset. Apparently, I am the odd-man-out in that respect. So be it. I don't tolerate dishonesty. Educate yourself on God, and stop believing half-truths spoon-fed to you from the Enemy of Man.

So the debbil retroactively created religious beliefs ahead of Christianity and purposefully made it resemble what he knew Christianity would be? If your powerful god knew about this, why didn't he just make the religion not like what Ole Splitfoot planted? Are you saying the biblical debbil outsmarted your Smartiest of Smarties deity? Is this before or after he planted all the dinosaur bones to trick good honest folks of the church?

If nothing else, you make a good argument that Romney is Satan with all that retroactive corporate strategy.

Anyway, just keep your fingers in your ears yelling "la-la-la" if that works best for you but don't dissuade your fellow Christians from learning about their history.

a reply to: beansidhe

Interesting bean, I wonder if it is another overlay. Do you know of any pre Christian legends that might parallel this saintly activity.

Pegasus, mount helicon, hippocrene and the muses spring to my mind, scuse the pun.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Pre-Christian Ionians worshipped the Mother Goddess, sister of the sun god Bel, also worshipped in Egypt and Asia Minor. Her sites are associated with sacred springs, fountains and wells.

The Druidical system peaked at the time of the Roman invasion under Julius Caesar. Against the Druids, as their chief enemies, these conquerors of the world directed their unsparing fury. The Druids, harassed at all points on the main land, retreated to Anglesey and Iona, where for a season they found shelter and continued their sacred rites.

The Druids retained their predominance in Iona and over the adjacent islands and main land until they were supplanted and their traditions and culture overturned by the arrival of St. Columba, the apostle of the Highlands, in 563 AD.

Apparently, the Sheela-na-Gig made its appearance during the latter part of the Early Christian (or Celtic Christian) period and they were still being erected during the later Middle Ages. There is one built into the wall of the Nunnery on Iona.

They were erected over the doorways of churches and castles and otherwise placed in very prominent positions suggests that they were a very potent and powerful image, obviously the primary religious belief of the people of that era of Christianity.

But their meaning goes much deeper,
Sheela-na-Gigs are directly related to earlier Goddess/Fertility figurines and the Goddess symbolism of the early pre-historic and Celtic periods.

A very interesting read...

herebedragons.weebly.com...

By Gods majestic glowing, burning bushy beard, they all look the same.
Odin:
Zeus(Or the christian God, some cases Satan)

Yah Weh( God of the sky or God of the Underworld, depends on his mood)


Anyone seeing the sense of impending doom displayed by these, idealistic...tributes.

Santa Claus: God of presents and coal, and keeper of the naughty and nice list.( Sounds like the God of the Underworld)

a reply to: Specimen

All seem to refer to the force of an over-dominant masculine consciousness and the patriarchal logos (father) principle that reached its apotheosis in the Middle Ages... by hook or by crook.

a reply to: Wifibrains

It's raining, it pouring, the Old man is snoring. Father time, grandfather clock paradox, bitter old man winter.

It almost like a western version of Yang from what you pointed out, esoterically anyway. Although Yang is associated with a bearded sky Dragon of the Sky. Thunder or Rain, cindered or pain.

By God, Im starting to feel like the 1960 Batman, just say a few things and it a crimes solved. Lol.

originally posted by: Chronogoblin
There are no pagan origins of the church. Satan stole the ideals of God which would later come to form Judaism and Christianity, and birthed other religions. It's simple really.

Oh puleeeeze...the only thing simple here is the insistence upon imposing one's mythology upon others who decline to share it. It's tiresome when people park their brains, yet turn up the volume.

Two things, I realised a while back that the pagan/natural roots of Christianity don't erode it...rather, they buttress the universality of much of the religion. That's actually a good thing.
Secondly, I have a cast-iron Green Man on my deck. He seems to like it there.

Sorry, just one small correction, but this irks me.

"Halloween" is not a holiday. It's a commercial "fun day" mainly celebrated in the US but now also increasingly celebrated in Europe.

The Christian holiday is All Saints Day, Nov 1, the day AFTER "All Hallows Eve" (Halloween).

And..(last poster), uhm sorry, "Santa Claus" is basically a re-enactment (if you will) of Saint Nicholas. Not a god.

Polytheists (pagan is actually term of disgrace used by the early christians) were never idol worshipers.
Their view of god(s) was very different to what we have in our mind today.
For monotheistic religions god is something outside the realms of our universe, but for the ancients god is part of the infinite universe if not the universe itself.

What does worshiping nature means;
Every law of nature is a different god, every aspect of the human nature and behavior is a differend god.
Earth is referred as the mother of both Gods and humans, but there were also others gods outside of the Earth.
Gods are immortal, humans die but love or sex (for ex.) will never cease to exist, thus it's an immortal ''entity'' of it's own,
Their unrest talent, wisdom and imagination tried to use personification and represented this power of nature with human characteristics, and made statues of Aphrodite. The same applies to all other Gods.
Every God has his own aspects and myths around him, Zeus represented the driving force behind nature, the power that makes things happen.
Ancient polytheism is sadly a very misconceived religion - philosophy today.
Mainly because of the the hate, the Judeo-christians had for all those satanic ''idol-worshipers'' as they called them.

Nietzsche blamed the christian religion for changing the society for the worse and claimed that the apostle Paul may have deliberately propagated christianity as a subversive religion (a "psychological warfare weapon") within the Roman empire as a form of covert revenge for the destruction of Jerusalem by the pagans.

Maybe that's why they hated the pagans so much, and when the Roman empire became a christian theocracy they tried to erase them completely by destroying all the temples, books, statues, persecuting philosophers, Mysts, priests, and killing and torturing those who didn't accept the new religion.
No wonder who brought the dark ages, and took the humanity at least 1500 years behind.

''Christianity deprived us of the benefits of Greek and Roman cultures. Over two thousand years ago, the Greeks and the Romans had discovered the scientific method. They possessed...the methodical research, the genius of organization and administration, the faith in, the will to, man's future, the great Yes to all things... But it was ruined by cunning, stealthy, invisible, anemic vampires....''
Friedrich Nietzsche

a reply to: Chronogoblin

It looks to me as though you have fallen for propaganda perpetuated by your faith. Your beliefs on this subject can not be corroborated by anything outside your faith. What your saying is tantamount to the claims that dinosaur bones were planted by the devil. It seems you have been brainwashed.

Throughout human history there have been millions of deities and the Abrahamic religion certainly was not even close to being the first.

a reply to: Wifibrains

I can't think of any stories, but I'll go away and have a think. The first thing that comes to mind are the clootie wells:



That one's in the Black Isle.

Clootie wells are found in Celtic Nations, Scotland, Ireland and Cornwall in England. In pre-Christian times a goddess or local nature spirit was said to inhabit the well, with special powers of healing. Later in Christian times a Saint replaced the goddess or spirit being associated with the wells, in Munlochy's case it is St Boniface.
(He is the patron saint of Germany and the first archbishop of Mainz. He was born in the kingdom of Wessex, today Devon, England and was killed in Frisia, Germany in 754).

Rags and clothing could also be tied to the trees surrounding the well, simply to honour the spirit of the well.

(Hang on- Mainz?? Sorry, wrong thread)

Explore Inverness.com

As far as having a sheela na gig on a nunnery at Iona? Well I never!

a reply to: Wifibrains

Many are aware of the pagan origins of Christianity

Is that so? What kind of timeline do you got to back that up?

It is not until we come to the third century A.D. that we find sufficient source material (i.e., information about the mystery religions from the writings of the time) to permit a relatively complete reconstruction of their content. Far too many writers use this late source material (after A.D. 200) to form reconstructions of the third-century mystery experience and then uncritically reason back to what they think must have been the earlier nature of the cults. This practice is exceptionally bad scholarship and should not be allowed to stand without challenge. Information about a cult that comes several hundred years after the close of the New Testament canon must not be read back into what is presumed to be the status of the cult during the first century A.D. The crucial question is not what possible influence the mysteries may have had on segments of Christendom after A.D. 400, but what effect the emerging mysteries may have had on the New Testament in the first century. Source

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: Chronogoblin
There are no pagan origins of the church.

Aaaaand lets not forget....

Jesus
Jesus and all the events of his life were copied from numerous Pagan stories. The timing, significance and manner of his death, resurrection and birth were taken from the gods Attis, Orpheus, Heracles, Mithra and Dionysus. Even his titles, such as “the Lamb of God” were taken from previous material. All of his miracles were common tricks of Pagans before his time as well. Attis was crucified 200 years before Jesus supposedly was.

Virgin birth
Pagan sun gods and harvest gods were traditionally born of virgins, often a virgin temple priestess...

Mary
Many different ancient cultures used “Mary” or a derivative of that name is the name of their goddess who bore god. This was also the ritual name of the temple harlots of the time who would have sex with those who made offerings to the temple in exchange for a symbolic union with the goddess, whom they were said to represent, just as the priest is the direct representative of God in Christian cosmology. All temple priestesses were considered to be “virgins” despite their many sex partners because the laity were not having sex with the woman, but rather with the Goddess.

Christmas
No one really knows when Jesus was born, possibly because he was not, so the Catholics, in a bid to convert Pagans, set the date of his birth on the Winter Solstice, which is the day when sun gods of many pre-Christian cultures were said to have been born as it is the shortest day of the year and thus signifies light overcoming dark. The tree and mistletoe are also of Pagan origin.

The Cross and the Fish
The cross, other than a symbol of torture, is a symbol of the lingam, or phallus. The Christian cross differs significantly from the Egyptian cross of life which also includes the yoni, the feminine principle. The fish, also a yoni symbol, was originally a symbol of the goddess as well.

Easter
Easter was named for the Saxon Goddess Eostre. The Easter Bunny and the eggs left for good children are German Pagan myths. The image of the god buried in his tomb rising to live again on Easter is a Pagan one. This day marked spring and, therefore, rebirth.

Eucharist
Wine has been used as a symbol for divine blood in many pre-Christian cultures. For instance, worshippers of Dionysus drank it in communion, but Jews, like Jesus and his followers, were strongly opposed to such rituals. Pagans also used wine to symbolize the blood of the goddess, from which all life was nourished. Followers of Osiris ate bread used to symbolize his flesh.

Marriage
Early Christians scorned the Jewish tradition of marriage which they inherited for being too Pagan and based on sexual union, which they saw as the most heinous of acts. Paul even suggests that he may have suffered self-inflicted castration; when someone asked if he was circumcised, he commented that the question did not apply to him. Marriage was added later on to help convert Pagans.

Valentine's Day
Originally called, Lupercalia, this was a day when each person put their name into a drawing and the person who drew their name became their sexual partner for the day. The pieces of paper have been tamed down to be notes of love. Saint Valentine himself was invented in order to give a Christian meaning to the holiday.

The Trinity
Pre-Christian Pagans also had a trinity; it was the Triple Goddess: Maiden, Mother and Crone. It represented all stages of the life cycle. The Fates were one version of this.

That's nice, just make sure to keep reciting that three times a day and then everything will be okay.

Makes me think of Lourdes here in France, where thousands flock to each year, looking for miraculous healing, because the vision of a woman presumed to be the Virgin Mary appeared 18 times.
The entity claimed herself to be "The Immaculate Conception". 69 miracles have been attributed to this cave and it's natural water source.

a reply to: Observationalist

I don't have a time line, but will say that knowledge was kept in other forms before. Standing stones, symbols ect predate the written words of the bible and the fact that the many churches are plonked on top of secred geological sites certainly suggests that they arrived after.

In this sense, Archeological finds would tell us more than any academic, especially one using the bible as source for a time line.