V-22s With Forward Firing Weapons

a reply to: Zaphod58

Insertion is done via a guided bomb type contraption with an airbag (didn't you read the description above ):

"different approach to the basic problem of sneaking in and sneaking out unobserved. Instead of attempting to hover and infil with the entire aircraft and the return fuel. Only the payload is delivered to the landing zone. The payload delivery system is different from a standard airdrop scenario, however. A large (approximately 4 foot deep) airbag shock attenuation system allows the payload capsule with six passengers to be dropped at a sink rate of approximately 50 feet per second."

More seriously though; I get what you're saying so is this one to file with the several thousand other designs that look good on paper but cant exist in the real world?

Replacing rotors with exotic propulsion does solve a lot of problems but I still cant find a likely candidate technology (other than a LTA/Hybrid LTA vehicle) that wouldnt require an onboard power station for vertical thrust.

a reply to: Jukiodone

And if you drop them in, how do you plan to get them out?

a reply to: Zaphod58

Well at the slower speeds of a propeller driven plane/helicopter...I would imagine the optical cloaking coatings would work much better than say on a supersonic vehicle. Might just be up the V-22's alley?

If something is slower moving, making it visually invisible as well as throwing out a confusing RCS would work to it's advantage I would think...especially if they are flying into contested territory to deploy a strike team of commandos.

What about an EW suite that can throw false RCS's in opposite directions? That'd be great for inserting strike teams I would think...

a reply to: Zaphod58

I thought you might be one of the few people interested to read that wall of text : evidently not!

"The “bomber” comprises its low observable shape only for the extraction, then can orbit undetected or return for refueling during ground operations of the infil crew. For recovery, the ground crew deploys a lanyard with a helium balloon, similar to the C-130 rescue system developed for the Vietnam era personnel recovery system. The mother ship picks up the payload lanyard and hauls it onboard for the high altitude stealthy cruise home. Thus, only the payload plus approximately 2,000 pounds is delivered to the high intensity area."

I dont subscribe to this being a real world application but the basis of an existing system used in Vietnam is a good starting point.


Looking at the "Starship" thread the explanation of the UFO over Halifax would seemingly make a good technological replacement for un-stealthy rotors or runaways ; i.e have a "hardback" LTA craft that deploys a more realistic payload system?

What did you think about the explanation on the Starship thread regarding hybrid LTA and do you think there is anything triangular and VTOL that matches the SOFTA profile that is flying?

a reply to: Jukiodone

The Fulton System killed almost as many as it recovered. Looks good on paper, but people recovered with it had a tendency to unhook, turn around, and walk out the back of the plane.

It's also limited in that you get two people at a time. That means more passes, more aircraft, and more time in Indian Country.

So again, how do you realistically plan on exfil?

a reply to: Zaphod58

I dont- I think Spec Op troops get dropped off by Chinooks, have to yomp in and then have to yomp out again - depending on what is most cost effective depending upon mission priority- sometimes they might get a black hawk lift along the way if warrants the spend?

Unless its not apparent I'm trying to get a feel for whether there is any basis and I appreciate the info on the Vietnam system- as I said in my post I think Id rather avoid ...

What do you think about the hardback LTA option then as this doesnt require (noisy) rotors, runways or hail mary lanyards.

a reply to: Jukiodone

I'll hint and nudge all day about regular programs, but SOCOM stuff is off limits.

a reply to: Zaphod58

don't tell me they paid you a visit.

I drive by their complex sometimes on my way to my wifes job.

a reply to: grey580

Not even a phone call. They're twitchier about SOCOM.

Cant see any up to date info in terms of Spec Ops VTOL developments except for this mention of the "MX Advanced"- whatever that is ( dont think its the Google image result BTW).

Link

"The analysis of alternatives, completed in September 2004, pointed to an advanced low-observable manned aircraft as the most promising option.

By mid-2005 the requirements for a stealthy transport aircraft for special operations forces had been approved by the US warfighter community. The Advanced Special Operations Forces Air Mobility Platform (M-X) will undergo a senior-level Department of Defense review to authorise Air Force Special Operations Command (AFSOC) to solicit industry teams to begin early developmental activities for an aircraft that would enter service in 2018.

The M-X is envisaged as a vertical- or ultra-short- take-off and landing platform for clandestine transport of troops and supplies into and out of heavily defended hostile territory in all terrains and environmental conditions. The aircraft will augment, but not replace, AFSOC's fleet of MC-130 Combat Talon and CV-22 aircraft. Its agility and hard-to-detect infra-red, radar and acoustic signatures and low- probability-of-intercept communications signals will allow it to overcome sophisticated enemy sensors and surface-to-air missiles that might doom even upgraded MC-130s and CV-22s. "


The M-X needs "agility in the objective area" which means it must be able to accomplish short take-off and landings and/or hover at medium heights. The declining capability of the aging SOF C-130 fleet to penetrate deep into sophisticated hostile airspace beyond 2015 adds emphasis to this program. The 2001 Quadrennial Defense Review report specifically states "Special Operations Forces will need the ability to conduct covert deep insertions over great distances."

Would certainly be better than that Humvee/Quadcopter brain cramp and 2015 is here!

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yeah they are twitchy aren't they.

knew two guys that worked there some years ago.

Used to play d&d with one of them.

Apparently the FBI checked us all out to make sure we were "ok" to have over his house.

a reply to: grey580

On the bright side. I firmly believe they have a list of deemed good guys and bad guys in terms of civilians that interact with SOCOM members. Do something to help one out and maybe you get on the nice list and are in the clear as long as you don't betray that trust. If you have friends that are SOCOM and after whomever checking your personal life out deems you "OK" a "Cut him a little slack -he's harmless and a good guy until indicated otherwise" note is probably included in your civilian file. Thats just my personal belief though. But I think it's partly true.

On the flip side, sometimes the feds call the civilians and grill you and your other friends associated with SF dude to see if your SOCOM friend is cool and can retain his TS/SCI clearance. Thats happened before to plenty of civilians before.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

And you get extra love from TSA when flying home on Thanksgiving to Grandmas house. Maybe?

originally posted by: justwanttofly
a reply to: BASSPLYR
An escort jammer would be a good niche role for an EW variant. Maybe they could combine it with some EW type weapons to make a nice little wild weasel esque helicopter/osprey package escort. Or maybe find a way to package the EW systems and keep the forward firing rockets for a nice one/two punch.

Something knocked out all cell phones during the OBL raid...

originally posted by: aholic
a reply to: grey580
Had a friend tell me they are based out of groom. There were also some MH47s involved, modified SOAR E model I believe. I'm actually pretty interested in those platforms. Chinooks are not stealthy....something went on there. Apparently, FWIH, there is a permanent chalk outline on the deck of the -47 that carried UBL out.
I should add they are of the 160th SOAR.

Im willing to guess they are based overseas somewhere for quick entry into a country. I dont doubt that used to be a groom though. And the chinooks didn't have to be stealthy at all. The element of surprise was somewhat achieved in the modified black hawks. If your in a helicopter flying 200 feet above the ground, at the same time an RQ-180 type aircraft is knocking out comms, then how are the paks gonna know you were even flying there anyway?
This is something thats bothered me from day 1 with the raid. It's almost like they didn't even need the stealth helo's to pull this mission off but decided to use them anyway because of the importance. But i agree I think they made some mods to 47's as well.

originally posted by: Jukiodone
I can't find the link again but read claims to be from a special forces person that they inserted via one of these during the Gulf War , they flew in packs and were the original companions of the F117's.

Let me stop ya right there...First, the claims come from the head honcho of scaled composites, Burt Rutan or whatever his name is. He started yapping at the jaw about his little startup company scaled composites getting primary work from LTV Aircraft Products Group in building a preliminary design and possibly a demonstrator for the SOFTA program, which turned out was too far ahead of its time anyway for the technology we had. The original companions didn't do much EW anyway, they did other things, if you believe that sort of thing .

All this.....(not attacking you mind you, just the source  )

originally posted by: Jukiodone

A quick search on line shows it was allegedley developed as a Special Forces Vertical Lift Craft with some sort of eventual cross over to Senior Citizen via a common mission profile or shared technology (Propulsion/Shape/Material etc)
The core mission objectives (during the 80's when it was developed?) seem to be:
" To be invisible to radar, infrared and acoustic sensors (even to the naked eye), the ASALT/SENIOR CITIZEN is something of a technological challenge. The aircraft is of triangular shape and fitted with three lights of variable intensity, positioned on each of the three angles. Their purpose may be to conceal the aircraft's true shape at night. In daytime, other lights may be used in greater number to hide the plane, making it invisible beyond 3 kilometers. More recent information has transpired about SENIOR CITIZEN. In 1990, additional flight testing is said to have taken place in Tehachapi Mountains, near Northrop's Tejon Canyon microwave research center. Witnesses describe a flat, triangular aircraft with rounded nose and leading edge. The example observed presented a black area in its middle"

and all this

originally posted by: Jukiodone
a reply to: aholic

No source on this but a report from Scaled Composites on SOFFA ( which later became SOFTA Special Operations Forces Tactical Aircraft)

"On May 23, 1991, LTV Aircraft Products Group of Dallas, Texas (LTV) contracted with Scaled Composites to prepare a preliminary design study and a prototyping plan for a proposed Special Operations Forces Transport Aircraft (SOFTA). The requirements for the SOFFA transport were stated as follows:

Need: the capability to penetrate unfriendly territory in a clandestine manner and to infiltrate/exfiltrate/resupply Special Forces teams or equipment at an unprepared site.

Design Mission: penetrate 1000 NM into unfriendly territory (no payload) and exflltrate clandestinely an Army Special Forces “A” team of 12 personnel and 500 pounds of equipment, 4,500 pound total payload, and return 1000 NM to the Forward Operating Location.

Design Reguirements:

STOL required - 1000 to 1500 foot over 50 foot obstacle at an unprepared site.
VTOL desired — at objective area, 4000 density altitude, 95° day, 4500 pound payload.
Payload — 4500 pound (design), 10,000 pound (overload).
Combat Radius — 1000 NM, 100 to 500 foot altitude, 300 to 400 knots.
Self—deployment Range - 2400 NM, best cruise altitude/Mach.
Signatures - low to moderate

The first three months’ activity for the design study consisted of development of configurations that could satisfy the mission requirements. This portion of the study was intended to allow the maximum freedom to explore new methods to meet the mission. Working with a minimum number of constraints, a large variety of configurations were explored. Twelve concepts were presented during a Mid-Term presentation at LTV on 1 August 1991. Those preliminary configurations included
the following:

MODEL DESCRIPTION

Model 208 Plenum fuselage, blown slot lip, tandem wing
Model 209 Advanced, two-rotor tiltwing
Model 212 Tandem stopped rotor, turbofan for cruise
Model 213 Single stopped rotor, turbofan for cruise
Model 215 Tandem wing, skirt for Super-STOL, rocket assist
Model 216 Tilt tri-rotor
Model 217 Counter-rotating rotor, tail sitter
Model 218 Dual aft rotor, tail sitter
Model 219 Single rotor, X-wing, tail sitter
Model 220 Dual rotor, tail sitter
Model 222 Direct lift engine turbofan
Model 223 Capsule-delivery/recovery turbofan

On 7 August 1991, LTV provided a downselect to six of the twelve configurations. Scaled responded with a second preliminary design study report including further refinement and performance estimates on the following six configurations:

MODEL DESCRIPTION

Model 209 Advanced, two-rotor tiltwing
Model 213 Single, stopped rotor, turbofan for cruise
Model 215 Tandem wing, skirt for Super-STOL, rocket assist
Model 216 Tilt tri-rotor
Model 220 Dual rotor, tail sitter
Model 223 Capsule-delivery/recovery turbofan"

END QUOTE FROM THIRD PARTY

came from this source....stargazer and is probably all bs.....That being said....I got some more info for you guys to dig into.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

This specifically talks about multi stage aircraft and I'm completely on-board with the multi craft idea with bits breaking off to perform different roles and functions.
I wouldnt be suprised if you couldnt project a plasma bloom/create a virtual plasma that mimics an aircraft/bird/flying horse both in terms of RCS, Infrared and Optical detection either on your craft or in the near distance.
You could probably have your "real" craft hiding amongst a pack of EM decoys!

Especially like the model 223 Description as it involves a mothership with spec ops "insertion pod"- You can count me out for this particular insertion BTW!!!

"MODEL 223 CAPSULE DELIVERY/RECOVERY SYSTEM
Capsule-delivery/recovery turbofan

The Model 223 system, illustrated in two separate three-views, (one for delivery and one for recovery) shows a different approach to the basic problem of sneaking in and sneaking out unobserved. Instead of attempting to hover and infil with the entire aircraft and the return fuel. Only the payload is delivered to the landing zone. The payload delivery system is different from a standard airdrop scenario, however. A large (approximately 4 foot deep) airbag shock attenuation system allows the payload capsule with six passengers to be dropped at a sink rate of approximately 50 feet per second while limiting the impact accelerations to less than l2Gs. This can be further reduced to approximately 9Gs using stroking seats. The high sink rate delivery allows the capsule to be targeted with precision similar to the precision delivery of a smart bomb. Position designators or GPS is used to provide a landing area reference and the descent parachute is steerable in any lateral direction in order to position the payload into a small area. The “bomber” comprises its low observable shape only for the extraction, then can orbit undetected or return for refueling during ground operations of the infil crew. For recovery, the ground crew deploys a lanyard with a helium balloon, similar to the C-130 rescue system developed for the Vietnam era personnel recovery system. The mother ship picks up the payload lanyard and hauls it onboard for the high altitude stealthy cruise home. Thus, only the payload plus approximately 2,000 pounds is delivered to the high intensity area."

again all from the same website as above. with a couple differences ill get to in my next post...

This specifically talks about multi stage aircraft and I'm completely on-board with the multi craft idea with bits breaking off to perform different roles and functions.

supposedlly this tech is 20 to 30 years off from being something usable, and then with just drones.

I wouldnt be suprised if you couldnt project a plasma bloom/create a virtual plasma that mimics an aircraft/bird/flying horse both in terms of RCS, Infrared and Optical detection either on your craft or in the near distance.
You could probably have your "real" craft hiding amongst a pack of EM decoys!

Im gonna break these into two different statements cause there are two different technologies that could be used here. first....

I wouldnt be suprised if you couldnt project a plasma bloom/create a virtual plasma that mimics an aircraft/bird/flying horse both in terms of RCS, Infrared and Optical detection either on your craft or in the near distance.

Im not sure about anything but the infrared spectrum, but if poland is doing this with a tank, just how far behind our aviation programs do you think they are? Im willing to be that if poland has done this with a tank, then we have figured out how to put it on an aircraft. Check it out...


BAE's Adaptive Camo. Trick the enemy into thinking your a car or a bus or anything but a tank in the infrared spectrum. Thats some cool ass stuff there!

You could probably have your "real" craft hiding amongst a pack of EM decoys!

ask and you shall receive...ADM-160MALD

Thats exactly what these little guys are capable of doing. And this tech is already available...

Thanks for the input..
I did a search on ATS and it wasnt mentioned so I thought it might be worth a look given the obvious lack of stealthy spec ops VTOL aircraft and the interest in silent, hovering, black triangles.

originally posted by: boomer135

Something knocked out all cell phones during the OBL raid...

Knocking out cell phones ( or more specifically the telecoms mast infrastructure that they run on) is remarkably easy and cheap if you can get a week or so's uninterrupted local access as a user.

The technique I've heard about uses a briefcase sized device that is placed locally and masquerades as a cell phone mast to capture and clone details of all the mobile users in the locale you wish to black out.

Once the prescribed number of legit users has been collected you just flick a switch and this device uses the (legit) details to execute a broadcast DOS (Denial of Service - call/hangup/repeat) attack on the locale cell phone masts meaning no calls can be made within the geographic area due to them being maxed out.

Cost of a homebrew version would be under 10K.

a reply to: boomer135

Boomer, I like your theory about how the cell phones were knocked out but I like to believe that was just a typical pakistani evening cell reception wise.

"Achmed did you fix the local cell tower again? You are the regional technician for all the cell towers."

"Yes Darbhat (leader of pakistani telecom) I patched the junction box at the tower with smeared goat dung again. Keeps the animals from chewing on the wires again."

"Ahh, good. I knew that was why I had a whole bar of reception tonight for once. Good Job."


Bassplyrs crazy speculation hour:
You know what I've always wondered? Wouldn't a flying RCS poll cap shape be the best for stealth in the early days of stealth before all the fancy skins and other gizomos got really effective? Granted you can get a poll cap shaped object to fly.

If one were to make a companion that could go ahead of the f117 to knock out radar or jam things or whatever it was doing I would guess that you would need to be even more stealthy than the f117's. Quieter, less heat signature, much more stealthy. RCS Poll Capped shaped?

Also, even though they would know you were in the general region why not also just have an aircraft broadcast a ton of random white EM noise to make it too hard to see anything through the electronic fog. That way they don't know whats out there or where. I could see that useful for hiding squadrons of vintage aircraft and less stealthy aircraft in our inventory during general wartime like in the gulf war. OR say if we had to use them in the next conflict. Kinda like a electronic "smoke grenade" conceal your position or movements.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: BASSPLYR

And you get extra love from TSA when flying home on Thanksgiving to Grandmas house. Maybe?

I dunno, I'll be traveling out of country around late may, early june. You guys will be one of the first to know if I ran into any flack by the TSA. I know guys that have a louder personality than me that have never had an issue at the airport.

I'm probably on their "talks a lot, but pathetic and harmless list."

Bassplyrs crazy speculation hour:
You know what I've always wondered? Wouldn't a flying RCS poll cap shape be the best for stealth in the early days of stealth before all the fancy skins and other gizomos got really effective? Granted you can get a poll cap shaped object to fly.

I dont see why you couldnt get that shape to fly. They made a diamond fly before they had the computers large enough to calculate RCS with curves

If one were to make a companion that could go ahead of the f117 to knock out radar or jam things or whatever it was doing I would guess that you would need to be even more stealthy than the f117's. Quieter, less heat signature, much more stealthy. RCS Poll Capped shaped?

More stealthy? idk about that. i would think it could have the same RCS as the f117. But me thinkies your still not right in guessing its purpose

Also, even though they would know you were in the general region why not also just have an aircraft broadcast a ton of random white EM noise to make it too hard to see anything through the electronic fog. That way they don't know whats out there or where. I could see that useful for hiding squadrons of vintage aircraft and less stealthy aircraft in our inventory during general wartime like in the gulf war. OR say if we had to use them in the next conflict. Kinda like a electronic "smoke grenade" conceal your position or movements.

My dear friend if you could create that, then we wouldnt need anything more than a kc135 with bombs attached to its wings. lol stealth would be obsolete!