why are these ex british troops not facing the same charges as jiahdists?

originally posted by: muckleduck

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: muckleduck
yea im the idiot, they went over there to a country not their own , entered conflict tht has nothing to do with them.

You just described all of the Americans who volunteered for the RAF to fight the Nazis or all of the Americans and Brits who volunteered to fight the fascist Franco in Spain.

That's the trouble with arguments of moral equivalency--they usually are neither.


Besides, it seems at least one of them chickened out after a few weeks and came home with nothing accomplished. You want to send him to prison for wasting everyone's time?

ww2 we faced a genuine threat, its not even the same on any level, if europe fell so would america, you had no choice really.


what about the jihadists that changed their minds once they got there too? they are told they arent allowed to return, what crime have they commited?

At the time, the world was not facing (or at least did not realize it was facing) a worldwide threat and I also mentioned Franco of the Spanish civil war which was no threat to the US or the UK. You said that it was wrong for someone to volunteer to fight in a foreign country in a war that did not involve them against a country that did not directly threaten theirs. I gave two very good historical examples. I highly recommend you read history.

Op your drowning in your own bs !


i dont side with anyone on matters of the M.E, i will point out what i see as wrong and unjust though. Wtf ?

What like stopping kids getting killed ?

true , i suppose i did assume a bit much also, but when they state they only wanted revenge it paints a picture in my mind.

honeslty i dont have a solution to the M.E that place is too complex for me to understnd the ins and outs of ancient feuds.

my attitude towards this has chnged drastically in recent years, 5 years ago id of been just as supportive as most other posters in the thread.

i dont see the need for murder at all , on anyone for any reason.

if everyone just minded their own business instead of creating conflict the world would be much better place to live in.

i wouldnt feel comfortable holidaying in turkey anymore, and thats down to how we act.

guy i worked with said jets were on patrol most days when he was there last year.

i want to explore the world but with all he western hate out there i feel like this is a no go area now.

so thank you government.

and regards to ibiza, i guess your right, it would be hard to make that place any worse.

try going into an army recruitment office and try sign up by saying u want revenge .

u will be most likely assed for mental disorder.

why anyone would willingly throw themselves into a war that has nothign to do with us amazes me, do they not value their lives?

a reply to: muckleduck

Our troops have not killed more children. Dude, catch yourself before you say things.

Also, who doesnt want a couple bad ass British guys around? If anything a singular wit and an acute sense of comedy has been added to the mix.

Op we all know war is political bs most of the time but sometimes , it isn't about what side your on it's about being human and decent and giving kids a chance !
And you can't stand and watch # happen because sometimes you have to stand in and help people !

a reply to: muckleduck

So because British troops have killed children, it's not okay for any Briton to decide to go try and stop a group of people who are killing children? Is that the point for us to all take away from your rant? That because countries have done questionable, or flat out wrong things, at some point in their history, nobody from that country is allowed to try and stop the same from happening again?

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: muckleduck

Our troops have not killed more children. Dude, catch yourself before you say things.

orly?

in 2 bombs alone america racks up 700k civilian casualites from ww2 alone, how many were children you reckon?

ill move onto some more recent child deathsa t the hands of our troops shall i?
www.iraqbodycount.org...

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: muckleduck

Our troops have not killed more children. Dude, catch yourself before you say things.

Also, who doesnt want a couple bad ass British guys around? If anything a singular wit has been added to the mix.

This is true. Most people do not realize that the vast majority of the civilians killing in OIF was due to sectarian violence--Muslim vs Muslim. Some may argue that it was the coalition's fault that there was sectarian violence because we deposed the dictator that was keeping a lid on sectarian violence by being a bit of a genocidal asshole himself, and I guess that would be a matter of debate and discussion.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: muckleduck

So because British troops have killed children, it's not okay for any Briton to decide to go try and stop a group of people who are killing children? Is that the point for us to all take away from your rant? That because countries have done questionable, or flat out wrong things, at some point in their history, nobody from that country is allowed to try and stop the same from happening again?

no im nto saying its fine for anyone to kill children, both parties should be held accountable to the same charges though! keep missing the point entirely cos ur heads in the clouds.

doesnt matter if british , american ,australian, russian, chinese , iraqi, afghani, israeli, all should be held accountable for crimes of war.

because these are 'our boys', as the press insists on calling them. they are heroes all, and can do no wrong.

That will be quite enough, people.

The veiled, and not so veiled, attacks/insults stop now.

Supposedly you all are here to have a conversation about issues important to you... How about you act like it??

To reiterate, That. Will. Be. Quite. Enough.

a reply to: muckleduck

But where's your evidence that the two fellas in your OP killed children? Or are they guilty of war crimes simply by being in the Brit military?

originally posted by: muckleduck

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: muckleduck

Our troops have not killed more children. Dude, catch yourself before you say things.

orly?

in 2 bombs alone america racks up 700k civilian casualites from ww2 alone, how many were children you reckon?

ill move onto some more recent child deathsa t the hands of our troops shall i?
www.iraqbodycount.org...

The total death toll from both bombs together (all people, civilian and military) was 199,000. 700,000 was more than twice the total pre-raid population of both cities put together.
www.atomicarchive.com...

But let's not facts spoil a good screed.


Notice that on your very own link, the Iraq body count for this year is 19k--with US and coalition forces gone. Your very own link implies who is really responsible for civilian casualties in Iraq.

a reply to: Shamrock6
There is no evidence.
...and for the record, I'll support any fellow Brit who goes to another part of the world to fight rapist/murderers.
The world needs more people like that.

a reply to: muckleduck

Put it this way duck, if you can't see ISIS for what they are, murderers, then your moral compass is broken. People who go and try to help the Kurds, do so for altruistic reasons, people who go to join ISIS do so because they want to fight for an Ideology and that means murdering people who don't share their narrow views.

ISIS are a horror show, their 'state'' is an international pariah, they have done unspeakable things in the name of the faith they claim to represent. The Kurds are fighting for their survival, they are trying to fend off ISIS who are intent upon wiping them out, ISIS show no mercy, they don't want to coexist, they want to exterminate. I hate to use the comparison, but in my opinion ISIS are the closest thing to the Waffen-SS since WW2, no other military group of ISIS's size and capabilities has had the extermination of ethnic groups as it's operational imperative since the SS, and ISIS make no qualms about this, that's what they do, either turn a blind eye, condemn from afar or go and fight them and try to save their targets from certain death.

a reply to: muckleduck
Muckie
you said
if everyone just minded their own business instead of creating conflict the world would be much better place to live in.

ok you travel the world - in a place where someone stronger and better armed than you sees you are different attacks you.

a. do you want everyone around you to carryon as nothing is happening
b. Say your different so what - carry-on as normal
c. help your attacker
d. help you
?

say they did option D: what if nothing stops the attacker.
nothing beating restraining threatening the attacker and now his supporters keep attacking you.

Would you want someone to stop them permanently or do you want to be killed?

So as you value life another stranger in the land your in kills your attackers and saves your life.

What do you do thank them or kill them?

After all they didn't mind their own business and they did kill someone?

a reply to: muckleduck

in 2 bombs alone america racks up 700k civilian casualites from ww2 alone, how many were children you reckon?

wait did you think we were talking about WW2 this whole time?

That explains allot. Ok. I get what you are thinking. No dude. That has been over for a while. We are talking about Iraq.

You got the source right as far as the country and conflict in question though so good job. BUT 2 bombs killed 700 THOUSAND people in Iraq? Almost half of the total violent deaths INCLUDING combatants (202,000)? Thats from your own link on the top left.

Thoughts?

Also you do realize that international private contractors outnumbered actual numbers of service men from the WHOLE coalition? Right?

Thoughts?

ALSO, the number of dead from those two bombs from WW2 was :
Hiroshima Nagasaki
Pre-raid population 255,000 195,000
Dead 66,000 39,000
Injured 69,000 25,000
Total Casualties 135,000 64,000

Half of the CASUALTIES are injuries and or missing people. SO the DEATH TOLL is not 200 thousand DEAD /Killed.

Thoughts?

originally posted by: puzzled2
a reply to: muckleduck
Muckie
you said
if everyone just minded their own business instead of creating conflict the world would be much better place to live in.

ok you travel the world - in a place where someone stronger and better armed than you sees you are different attacks you.

a. do you want everyone around you to carryon as nothing is happening
b. Say your different so what - carry-on as normal
c. help your attacker
d. help you
?

say they did option D: what if nothing stops the attacker.
nothing beating restraining threatening the attacker and now his supporters keep attacking you.

Would you want someone to stop them permanently or do you want to be killed?

So as you value life another stranger in the land your in kills your attackers and saves your life.

What do you do thank them or kill them?

After all they didn't mind their own business and they did kill someone?

That is a valid philosophical argument. I agree that if everybody minded their own business instead of crating conflict the world would be a better place. However, history clearly shows that from the dawn of recorded history, we have had murders and rapists and violent people who want to kill and take. Quite often otherwise good people find they have to use violence to protect themselves and the innocent from evil people. Sad to say, but some people are simply bad.

If someone kills a stranger to protect my family or my wife and kids, I'm going to shake his hand. I don't care if it is my neighbor or a guy from the moon. It does not matter who killed my attacker, the attacker was stopped and the attacker should not have been attacking in the first place. Who killed him is irrelevant.