2 NYC officers dead in ambush-style shooting

originally posted by: th2356

originally posted by: [post=18791659]

Police Worldwide are developing a bad reputation (right or wrong) and its catching up to them.

Educate yourself before you make such claims. The US is not the whole world, and the US police is certainly not "police worldwide".

Many countries around the world have few or no problems at all with the police.

True, but even more countries have more problems with the police than the US. In most countries I've been, especially developing countries, the police are seen as completely and utterly corrupt, dangerous, may kidnap or extort you, etc. Seen it firsthand to locals.

I saw a police gun battle in Guatemala where they opened fire on a car escaping and someone got shot down in front of me. I guess with the recent policy shootings here in the US, people might say it is no better. But I am fairly certain that people coming from developing countries will say it's still worse in many of these countries.

That doesn't, however, address the fact that the US is probably not comparing well to DEVELOPED countries, which serve as the only legitimate point of comparison.

We had a meeting at our fire dept (I'm a FF/EMT) over the weekend regarding all this mess going on. We're actually considering using our grant money to get bullet proof vests "just in case". There's first responders (FD/PD/EMS) getting ambushed quite frequently it seems... sad times we're living in.

I don't condone any attacks whatsoever. My father was an officer as well as a firefighter, so I know there's plenty of good ones out there (and plenty of bad ones). I can see why people would want to kill police officers. Again, I don't condone it but I can see why. It just bothers me to see it happen to Fire/Rescue personnel even more because we're there JUST to save life/property... not to put you in a cage.

Slightly off topic but it really bothers me

a reply to: CharismaticNerd

To me that's the absolute worst, the lowest of the low. People want to hate cops, fine great you hate cops you're a tough guy. But why on earth would you try to attack FF or medics? That one always has and always will boggle my mind. These people's sole purpose is to help others in their worst times of need. They don't pull you over. They don't stop and frisk. They don't have any more to do with law enforcement than the guys who work on the sewer lines do: they're county employees and that's the end of the similarity. I've never, ever understood people who go after them.

Stay safe man

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: CharismaticNerd

To me that's the absolute worst, the lowest of the low. People want to hate cops, fine great you hate cops you're a tough guy. But why on earth would you try to attack FF or medics? That one always has and always will boggle my mind. These people's sole purpose is to help others in their worst times of need. They don't pull you over. They don't stop and frisk. They don't have any more to do with law enforcement than the guys who work on the sewer lines do: they're county employees and that's the end of the similarity. I've never, ever understood people who go after them.

Stay safe man

Very true.
But there are those nut bags that start a fire and then shoot the first responders.

But the ones shooting cops are nut bags too. In fact, except for cases of defending oneself or others from harm... anyone that shoots someone has a little something wrong upstairs.

a reply to: Shamrock6

This same statement could be said of the many thousands of things cops do each year. The cops show up a lot of the times before EMS and provide first response CPR. Cops rescue people from burning cars, resuscitate drowning victims, put themselves between the public and bullets many times a year, the list goes on.

I am almost sure the two cops in this case that got executed didn't deserve it. It seems one of them as a Chaplin in training. I don't pretend to know either of those two cops but they were out doing their job, paying taxes and raising their families.

Brown was a thug that didn't pay taxes, didn't have a job and strong armed a shop keeper. Garner had 30 previous arrests and I highly doubt he was paying taxes on his loose cigarette enterprise.

One just has to ask, if any of us was a shop keeper would we want someone to get away with stealing from us? Or if I was around the corner paying city taxes for my shop and someone else was selling the same product but was not paying taxes, should that be over looked?

There are bad cops and I do see the videos and I am incensed by the ones I do see and no action is taken against them. Here is the thing, why not go after those cops? Why choose random madness? It's not like Brown or Garner were random.. They were doing something illegal.

The videos we don't see that show cops doing wonderful things, life saving things and just generally being there standing between the us and the bad guys don't get much traction. Those are the silent heroes and usually the ones that are gunned down before their time. I would bet my next pay check that the stories that come out about these two executed cops are going to make a lot of people feel very ashamed at the vile rhetoric they spewed or cheered.

Shame on everyone that rejoices in the death of these two cops while holding Garner and Brown up as some kind of innocent saints. You take the thugs and invite them over to your home, your neighborhood. I'll take the cops and invite them over to mine any day of the week..

originally posted by: openminded2011
a reply to: JoeSignal

In a strange irony, this illustrates why cops are shooting so many suspects. They have to work in neighborhoods where there is not just criminality, it is embraced as a way of life and even a sort of "style". The "thug life" is something to be aspired to by too many young guys in a lot of these neighborhoods, its in their music, its who they look up to and aspire to be. And these police see shootings day after day after day, until EVERYONE looks like a potential shooter. And its just that easy, you can be sitting in a squad car, and get your head blown off for wearing a uniform. They know what these individuals are capable of, because they see it every day in what they do to each other. They see people shot dead for looking at someone funny, or "not respecting" the shooter. So they become jaded and cynical. They see so much subhuman behavior by violent individuals in ghetto areas,they start to treat everyone they encounter in these areas as subhuman.So they tend to shoot first and ask questions later. Its significant that this individual told people "look what I am about to do". He wanted to be remembered in the thug culture, to be looked up to. And he will by too many people. Yes, some cops are out of control, but they are a symptom, not the illness. The illness is out of control violence and criminality in some black neighborhoods. And NO ONE is willing to admit it. And I dont buy the rationalization that this is occurring because of poverty. There are scores of places in the world in much more extreme poverty, and they don't kill each other like this. This is a cultural embracing of violence by a subset of the population.

And to be fair, there is a cultural embracing of violence by mass media. The Sopranos, breaking bad, violent video games, violent movies. We live in a culture where increasingly violence is illustrated as the way to get what you want. We pickle our kids in this from a very early age. But the black culture it seems escpecially ingrained.


And they are not the only ones living in fear. Every time you go out in a city near one of these neighborhoods, you have to live in fear of either yourself or loved ones being gunned down and murdered, or robbed or carjacked by these predators, and this is happening to black and white people alike. I was almost carjacked in my old neighborhood by two young men, one walking towards, me while the other came around behind me (I was lucky enough to move away from that area a year later) at 5 AM one morning, the only thing that saved me I believe was that my debit card wouldn't work and I didn't fill the car up as a result, As I was driving away, they started walking towards a young woman in a car with a baby. I called the cops. A week later, a cop was shot dead a block away. I will always wonder if it was the same thugs who did it. You don't forget things like this. People live in constant fear of violence by this kind of crime. Where are the protests to end that? I think its so ironic that they are protesting living in fear of the cops when so many people, white and black alike, live in fear of the way black thugs conduct themselves, and there is no mention of it. Maybe if they started confronting this reality, things could really change for the better.

I am not a racist, its simply the TRUTH that no one will state.

"And I dont buy the rationalization that this is occurring because of poverty. There are scores of places in the world in much more extreme poverty, and they don't kill each other like this. This is a cultural embracing of violence by a subset of the population."

In numerous poverty and conflict stricken zones of the world, violence, kidnapping, robbery, and murder are FAR higher than in any area in the U.S. I have spent time working in poverty in both the US AND in Central America, the Caribbean, south Asia, and East Asia. Central American low income areas make US ghettos look tame in comparison.

For reference, I live in the very place these cops were murdered, literally one block away, so I have room to speak on it.

Of the top ten cities in the world for murder, violence, etc, NONE are in the U.S.

www.theguardian.com...

a reply to: CharismaticNerd

Again, I don't condone it but I can see why. It just bothers me to see it happen to Fire/Rescue personnel even more because we're there JUST to save life/property... not to put you in a cage.

Slightly off topic but it really bothers me.

Not at all off topic. Thanks for the viewpoint.

And thank you for all you do.

originally posted by: CharismaticNerd I can see why people would want to kill police officers. Again, I don't condone it but I can see why. It just bothers me to see it happen to Fire/Rescue personnel even more because we're there JUST to save life/property... not to put you in a cage.

I would bet that you couldn't find one case of a slain police officer that seemed even remotely justifiable.

In this case its easy to see why this man killed these cops......he was a nut job active criminal. Shot his girlfriend first before setting off on his mission.

You say you can see why. Can you see why? There isn't anything remotely understandable about this to the normal sane mind.

originally posted by: CharismaticNerd

I don't condone any attacks whatsoever.

My father was an officer as well as a firefighter

I can see why people would want to kill police officers.

Seems sort of like an oxymoron doesn't it? You've had family in your local police force yet you understand why someone would want to shoot at someone like your dad? There's nothing understandable when it comes to individuals feeling that they're above the law, understanding it might as well be taken as condoning it.

I will say it once, and I will say it again.

The problem we are seeing today is with the Police Force in general. It is no specific incident, however its a systemic, force wide training failure that is creating these problems.

If COPS were trained how to correctly deal with people, how to use their weapons correctly, how to ADDRESS us other humans correctly instead of like animals, how to discern a situation, how to properly identify objects, how to properly identify threats, etc. Then many of these problems wouldnt be happening.

What is the goal of a cop anyway? Is it to Protect and Serve? Enforce Laws? Exercise Control? Collect Money for their Employer? Reduce Crime? What?

It is supposed to be about protecting the average, everyday citizen, except the supreme court says NO. Their job is supposed to help reduce crime, but thats awful hard when you have FOR PROFIT prisons that NEED bodies. Its even harder when you NEVER see officers in the community reaching out across the divides. Never see them trying to figure out ways to build those 'ghetto' communities instead of constantly policing them.

The solution is actually quite easy. Out of all the people in this discussion, whether it be protester, average joe, politician, or police force, there is only one solid, sanctioned and unified team in the whole darn conversation. That is the Police Force across the United States.

They, and they alone are acting as a singular entity and have the structure to actually be the 'bigger man' and SHOW the nation that they can change. But it becomes awful hard to trust that same team when they constantly deflect responsibility, investigate themselves, and generally just act like a bunch of goons who are above the law.

Think about that for a minute. The police force is seriously the most organized, most likely to bring about a positive change if all they would do is admit they were wrong and attempt to mend their ways and seek better training. One citizen doesnt have that power, one politician doesnt have that type of power. The whole police organization does.

Heres another reason why I blame the training. EVERY 'police brutality' video you watch always contains a few key phrases from the officers.

"Drop the weapon"
"Stop resisting"
"I fear for my life"

All of those phrases you hear on all those tapes, whether the person is in handcuffs being beat by officer, or is holding a set of brake pads and shot by not properly identifying an object, those phrases all serve ONE purpose. To transfer the liability from the officer to whomever the other party is that is involved.

Go check every video, every single one, and tell me if you dont hear those buzz words. If that is so consistent over many cities, states, counties, and parishes, how can it not be something they are taught to say? Trained to deflect responsibility.

Now add that in with how they are allowed to 'coax' confessions by outright lying to gain that upper hand, and you can quickly see why we need a better trained police force.

a reply to: phishfriar47

that's all well and good but you want systemic change to come about by cops changing. that's not really addressing the issue. the entire system is broken, from top to bottom. fixing the bottom isn't going to fix the top. you can have a police force handing out puppies and kittens, but if the laws haven't changed, the court system hasn't changed, the jail and prison hasn't changed, the cops handing out puppies and kittens won't be around long.

saying "cops just need to stand up and change" is looking at the issue through rose colored glasses. crap laws and crap policy will still be on the books, regardless of how nice and or mean the cops talk to people. the way things are set up now, you're going to wind up with all the good cops being run off, and left with more bad ones than we already have.

treat the disease, not the symptoms. I would hazard the guess that there's far more "good cops" than there are "good anything else" in the system, aside from folks at a similar level like prison guards, deputies, etc. the higher up you go the less room for good there is.