The Scandal of the Crucifix: The Promise

This is pt. 2 of the thread which I named the The Son of Man's Sacrifice

If you have not read it, feel free to do so or do not.

Why could Christ have obliterated His enemies if He was God? If He was God, why would He not come down from the cross with His power and still save the race, that is, if the race needs saving?

Those who have these questions should ask themselves; What are we being saved from in the Crucifix; What do we feel we need to be saved from; Are we of the same blood as those who shouted 'Crucify Him!' and 'come down from thy cross and save yourself if thou truly art the son of God!'.

It was not from the sufferings of a common human life that we were to be redeemed from, but from the suffering that comes from being enslaved to sin. Christ is not a political king, He rejected such honors in the desert. Christ is the King of the Kingdom of God.

But such an understanding is not born without faith. Few can see God in the weakness of human flesh which He had put on. Why you ask? To be the 'stumbling block.'

Sadly, even less see the substantial Gift of the Sacrifice on the Cross.

"The Son of man became a scandal when He took upon Himself the weakness and even the guilt of man and did not use His Divine power to escape the Cross" - Fulton J. Sheen

The Cross meant our redemption from sin, a thing far greater than freedom from human slavery, from corruption and poverty, or from oppressive tyrants. This meant that all men(and women) could have freedom by accepting the Sacrifice given to all of us for us. This meant we could all have salvation and turn from evil by repenting of it and rejecting it.

Find in God all of your soul's lost joys! The Promise was not a comfortable easy life, it was not riches nor worldly power and prosperity.

Finish this thought on your own. Contemplate the promise given to those who accept Christ the Savior.

end of pt. 2

a reply to: backcase

Cross worship is idolatry...

Mary worship is idolatry...

Jesus worship is idolatry...

The way to being saved is LOVE!

Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Love your enemies...

Live by the words of Christ!

NOT THE WORDS OF PAUL!

Matthew, Luke, Mark, John...

Read and live by the WORDS OF CHRIST WITHIN THOSE FOUR BOOKS! Only Christ's words... no need to worry about miracles... raising dead, walking on water (those are irrelevant). The quoted words of Jesus is all that matters.

Take the rest of the new testament (and old) with a HUGE grain of salt.

The words matter... not the death, not the Resurrection, not miracles... Focusing on things like that is why we have soooo many atheists.

Jesus never claimed to be God...

Jesus never worshiped Mary...

Jesus would have never approved of Vatican city on ANY level...

Jesus preached love!

The love is all that matters.

If you love the people, God will be pleased.

Now, almost everyone is going to disagree with me...

But, I am 100% correct on this.

a reply to: backcase

Was everything that Jesus supposedly taught while he was on earth, things like "you must be BORN AGAIN" and "Forgive and you will be forgiven" and the "The Kingdom of God is within", were those things not effective until AFTER Jesus died on the cross? Or, were they always true?

If all he needed to do was die a human death, to save humanity, why did he embark on a ministry and teach people stuff about salvation? Why the miracle virgin birth, walking on water, raising the dead and feeding the multitudes? What was all that for?

a reply to: applesthateatpeople

But, I am 100% correct on this.

Fallacy, Appeal to authority.

Jesus never claimed to be God...

But you said to only listen to the apostles, John being the beloved apostle wrote down what he heard Jesus tell him in a vision. So what do you say about Christ claiming to be the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty in the book of Revelation written by John?

"12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation 22:12-16

a reply to: windword

I put a lot of thought into your reply and wrote mine to you down by hand:

The Gospel points to Jesus.He Himself says "follow Me".

Buddha said something like "when I die I will leave you my teachings and rules". Anyone can do that.

The difference is that the Christ did not just leave temporal words and actions, but an everlasting Gift of of life in the Spirit. He said "Abide in Me and I will abide in you," and He said "He who has Me in Himself has also the Father."

It is not just about the scattered details of the gospel, for if all were included there would be much less room on the earth for people.

All is contained in Christ Himself, and he who wishes to have Christ should recognize the Crucifix as a proposal.

By accepting the Cross we cross the threshold of spirituality and give our spirits the bread of life and the wine of redemption. 'We are married to be coheirs with Christ'. We become believers and not just scholars. We become endowed with Divine Wisdom and Divine life by being united to the Christ.

a reply to: backcase

Thanks for your thoughtful response,

He said "Abide in Me and I will abide in you," and He said "He who has Me in Himself has also the Father."

But, if Jesus and God are one, if Jesus is God's Word, the LOGOS, and had a "voice" in the "creation", and if what he said is true, the Kingdom of God is within, then wasn't he always there, abiding with us, as we were abiding in "him", even before he supposedly incarnated as a human to die for us?

All is contained in Christ Himself, and he who wishes to have Christ should recognize the Crucifix as a proposal.

The crucifixion as a proposal? That makes no sense. It's not very romantic.

I fail to see how the murder of a human being has anything to do with the power of the "entity" you call Christ, who, supposedly, always was and always will be, to free humanity from itself.

a reply to: windword

I will answer this quote: 'But, if Jesus and God are one, if Jesus is God's Word, the LOGOS, and had a "voice" in the "creation", and if what he said is true, the Kingdom of God is within, then wasn't he always there, abiding with us, as we were abiding in "him", even before he supposedly incarnated as a human to die for us?'

but not the second, not because I cannot, but because I find it to be in poor taste to show pigs my pearls and then watch them trample upon them.

The Son of God had to become the Son of man in order to redeem humanity. We would remain flesh and blood eating poisoned food if Jesus had not broken Himself as bread to give us the Food and Drink of Paradise. We were placed into the slavery of sin by Adam and redeemed from that slavery by Christ.

The Apostles did not understand until after He had died btw.

a reply to: backcase

but not the second, not because I cannot, but because I find it to be in poor taste to show pigs my pearls and then watch them trample upon them.

I'm going to assume that you're not calling me a pig, and you're referring to people who will come into this thread and seize on what you say, so you're keeping it simple.

The Son of God had to become the Son of man in order to redeem humanity. We would remain flesh and blood eating poisoned food if Jesus had not broken Himself as bread to give us the Food and Drink of Paradise. We were placed into the slavery of sin by Adam and redeemed from that slavery by Christ.

See, this just sounds like rhetoric to me. It doesn't make sense. It sounds like something that someone made up.

We don't really eat Jesus during communion. It's a symbolic gesture of being generically spiritually fed.

a reply to: windword

'my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink'.

As a catholic, I understand that Christ breaks the Bread and pours out His Blood at every mass. I do not doubt the power of baptism, I do not doubt the power of confession, I do not doubt the power of Communion or confirmation, but I see that you doubt the power of God.

a reply to: applesthateatpeople

I agree with your words.

Why can people not just let go of the subjective view and try to see the objective view of all things that is. Idolizing Jesus will just delay walking on the path "taking up the cross" and following Jesus in action and connecting to the spirit.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Rumi saying he is the alpha and omega.

I am dust particles in sunlight,
I am the round sun.
To the bits of dust I say, Stay.
To the sun, Keep moving.
I am morning mist,
and the breathing of evening.
I am wind in the top of a grove,
and surf on the cliff.

Mast, rudder, helmsman, and keel,
I am also the coral reef they founder on.
I am a tree with a trained parrot in its branches.
Silence, thought, and voice.
The musical air coming through a flute,
a spark of stone, a flickering
in metal. Both candle,
and the moth crazy around it.

Rose, and the nightingale
lost in the fragrance.
I am all orders of being, the circling galaxy,
the evolutionary intelligence, the lift,
and the falling away. What is,
and what isn't. You who know
Jelaluddin, You the one
in all, say who
I am. Say I
am You.

There are always "I AM":s on this planet doing their own thing. Now days they are flaunting it in plain sight:
Will I am
Aloe Blacc (Yes, I AM)

On one level it is one of the biggest practical jokes ever created in creation. The ones focusing on one tree will be blind to see all the others trees and think there is only one tree where there is a forest.

a reply to: backcase

As a catholic, I understand that Christ breaks the Bread and pours out His Blood at every mass. I do not doubt the power of baptism, I do not doubt the power of confession, I do not doubt the power of Communion or confirmation, but I see that you doubt the power of God.

First of all, I don't believe in the same God as you. I can understand the concept of the LOGOS, and everyone and every living thing has that "divine spark", that is a window into the heart of "god". But I don't believe in a god that isn't already abiding within everything. I don't believe in sin, hell or the need for a bloody sacrifice for salvation. I don't believe in a god that needs rituals.

Secondly, all those things that you mentioned, communion, confirmation, confession and baptism were all being practiced in various cults and religions for hundreds, if not thousands of years before the advent of Jesus of Nazareth.

a reply to: windword

'But I don't believe in a god that isn't already abiding within everything.'

It's not that I don't, but I don't believe that man is wholly aware of God's presence.

It's your choice for God has given you free will and chooses not to take it away. But because you do not believe in a conscience does not make null the fact that it exists.

A former atheist broke today and told me that he believes in God.

This was a good friend and co-worker who spoke to me, mostly arguing, about God and His existence. Today he approached me and said with a different look in his eye, almost like a broken man, 'I believe.'

a reply to: backcase

It's your choice for God has given you free will and chooses not to take it away. But because you do not believe in a conscience does not make null the fact that it exists.

What makes you think that I don't believe in a conscience? Every living thing is born with a conscience and the knowledge of right and wrong.

a reply to: backcase

This was a good friend and co-worker who spoke to me, mostly arguing, about God and His existence. Today he approached me and said with a different look in his eye, almost like a broken man, 'I believe.'

That's pretty cool. Did he mention what made him change his mind?

a reply to: LittleByLittle

Rumi saying he is the alpha and omega.

I've read the copy/paste a few times and don't see that. I'm not saying he didn't claim it to be true, the enemy has been trying to claim for himself titles of God Almighty since the world was created. So I fully believe the claim was made, just I didn't see it in what you posted.

a reply to: windword

I do not think that you believe in a conscience because you said you do not believe in sin.

Maybe you just are gonna counter and say, 'I don't believe in the dogma of guilt, sin, and hellfire'. but I believe that man is in need of forgiveness, which when rejected to the utmost extent, can no longer offer itself. Thus man is placed in the state we call 'hell', which is the horribly limited space of hopelessness within our own hearts.

God gave me a taste of hell, and by God I do not like it.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I believe it was a truth hidden in his heart by God that worked its way up to the surface. God is so good as to give me the gift of being able to see this man undergo a conversion.

Love is what made him realize it, God's love for him.

a reply to: backcase

Maybe you just are gonna counter and say, 'I don't believe in the dogma of guilt, sin, and hellfire'. but I believe that man is in need of forgiveness, which when rejected to the utmost extent, can no longer offer itself.

Forgiveness for what? Being Human?

I believe that no one can forgive anyone unless they're capable of forgiving themselves. I think it's just a side step to claim to be the recipient of forgiveness from God,when one can't forgive themselves.

Thus man is placed in the state we call 'hell', which is the horribly limited space of hopelessness within our own hearts.

I'm not in a state of hell. I'm not hopeless. I know some people are, but religion isn't always the answer. Sometimes, it's the problem. Self hatred is NOT a healthy state.

Its the Egyptian ANKH and was in the tomb of Joshua, ie Tutankhamun, the Teacher of Righteousness. Moses, Solomon and King David were pharaohs. And, the Ankh may be a code for destruction, hidden under all the life stuff. Those rays of the sun of Aten are probably not the sun, but the dark star or Saturn or a star that created destruction on earth.

They were Atenists. Aton is Adonai in Hebrew.

And the cross was the Ankh.

Thats my view on this.

The Righteous Teacher, Joshua, was murdered and the one whom Isaiah spoke of and hung from a tree. That was when he had paved the way for peace in Egypt after a very tyrannical Hebrew/Zion Moses had instilled One God religion, Aten, and closed down all the temples, exiled the priests and created much suffering. And he was banished to Mount Sion. And his son took over and gave people the freedom of choice again, and seemed to be venerated and considered very wise. He went out to Sinai to try and talk his father and companions back home, to not be banished providing they played fairly with others, and instead he was murdered and hung from a tree.

The cross is not a symbol of us, the only other cross is the sun hanging on its cross in December.