Why Bastardize Ishmael but not the Tribes of Israel? The binding of Isaac or Ishmael?

a reply to: Sahabi

Why do I get the impression you are just a Muslim trying to legitimize Islam and de-legitimize Christianity?

Simply, all of us humans are equally brethren.

No argument from me, we are all sons and daughters of Noah and his children.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Why do I get the impression you are just a Muslim trying to legitimize Islam and de-legitimize Christianity?

Oh no! Just when we have finished re-examining the Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Ishmael, and Isaac narrative of Genesis,... just when we have finished walking through the points step-by-step, verse-by-verse,... just when we have clearly understood that the Biblical narrative differs from mainstream doctrine,... we go and tandem off into personal attacks

If we must pry; At different times in my life, I used to be a sincere Christian and then Muslim, amongst other systems. Today, I stand as a non-religious practitioner of spirituality, mysticism, and philosophy,.... the variety of good vibes, universal brotherhood, and tree-hugging

In no way do I propagate or endorse Islam. Here are the anti-Islamic threads that I have authored:

• Becoming Muslim: I Did Not Read The Fine Print

• Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

• Islam's Lie: "There Is No Compulsion In Religion" (2:256)



My religious affiliation, or lack thereof, should not undermine the facts of our discussion. My illustration of Hagar's legitimacy as a wife,... Ishmael's legitimacy as first-born son,... God's blessings upon Abraham and Hagar before promising Sarah,... and Ishmael's participation in the "Everlasting Covenant" remains Biblically sound, regardless of my personal beliefs.

Would you attack me, rather than considering the mainstream doctrine about Hagar and Ishmael's illegitimacy is unsubstantiated?

I sincerely wish you Peace my dear brother/sister.

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: NOTurTypical

The reason why Ishmael was not given the inheritance was because he was conceived in the flesh, Issac was the child of faith

1. If Ishmael was conceived in the flesh, then he is the heir. In Genesis 15:4, God promises to Abraham; "a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir."

2. Abraham is not lacking in faith. In Genesis 17:1, God calls Abraham faithful and blameless even after the marriage to Hagar and the birth of Ishmael.

 

He wanted the promise to come through Sarah and Abraham, not Abraham and Hagar.

Can you please show me where Sarah was ever promised any children at all before the birth of Ishmael?

You walked right past the important part....."of your own flesh and blood" is a reference to Sarah. She was from his tribe, and looks to be his niece.

And really all God said in Gen 15 was that "one from thine own bowels shall be thine heir" in regards to Eliezer. Its really not a confirmation of Ishmael in any way.

Apparently Hagar was sent away twice. The first time by Sarah. An angel intercepted her and told her to go back and submit herself to Sarah. Which Hagar never really did in her heart. A clear picture of Ishmaels decedents to be subordinate to Isaacs seed.

The second time she was sent away was by Abraham after being nagged to death by Sarah. And then God stepped in and told Abraham to listen to Sarah. Its clear that Hagar was going to cause trouble and that Ismael was already mocking Isaac, had contempt for Issac.....as they do to this day.

Then we see Isaac takes a wife again from his fathers tribe.

And even Jacob went back for a wife.

The fact that Isaac and his wife were upset with Esau for taking two Hittite wives should tell us something. That being that they had figured Esau to carry on in the same manner as they had always done.

Interesting thread! So, I guess in those days a man was allowed to take more than one wife? And Abraham must have had a wedding ceremony with Hagar? Then he dismissed his own wife and son into the desert? Is a man allowed to do that to his wife? Was the biblical law written at that time? What laws were there governing a marriage at that time? Or maybe he divorced her?

A lot of questions brought up in this line of inquiry. Thank you OP for making me think about these things. I'm glad to see you used Strongs Concordance to look into the meanings of the original hebrew words used. I think that is the best way to research the Bible. I hope you have been able to make some progress at least, with the help of the other members here.

a reply to: Sahabi

we go and tandem off into personal attacks

That wasn't a personal attack. I just said I got the impression you are a Muslim. It's an assumption, not an attack.

In no way do I propagate or endorse Islam. Here are the anti-Islamic threads that I have authored:

Then my assumption was wrong, but it wasn't a personal attack.

a reply to: 3n19m470

Interesting thread! So, I guess in those days a man was allowed to take more than one wife?

Correct, in the Bible God commanded the Jews to stop the practice after Moses led them from Egypt in the exodus.

a reply to: Sahabi

I converted through dreams, visions, and hearing the voice of God to Christianity.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

That said.. we are ALL chosen. IF, and I repeat IF.. we want to be. We can all be given a new name.. we can all be his precious son or daughter Israel.

He acted it out through them, to show it in action! It shows HIM in perfection.. one child under law, one child under promise... both bad children really... lol..

but his favorite ones.. are the ones who love HIM back! And when you hear HIS voice calling you HIS precious son or daughter Israel... you will finally understand! I heard it! I heard HIM!

You can be chosen too!

a reply to: OpinionatedB Hey first of all, I'm glad to hear you have had such an amazing experience and I look forward to reading your thread.

In the following sentence: "And when you hear HIS voice calling you HIS precious son or daughter Israel... you will finally understand!"

I don't understand why the word "Isreal" is there. If you take out that word, it makes sense to me. You hear his voice calling you his precious son or daughter. That's fine. When yoh add the word Isreal to the end, now I'm confused... is God calling you Isreal like it's your new name? Or is the person you are addressing named Isreal? Neither of those make sense though, the way the sentence is formed... at least not to me. What is going on here??

Reply to Sahabi

a reply to: Seede Initially, the promise and covenant was only given to Abraham through the promise of his flesh and blood descendants, offspring, son, and heir,... not to Sarah. A promise to Sarah's only came long after the birth of Ishmael. Abraham takes Hagar as a wife. If this act was bad or against God's Will, why did God say that Abraham is faithful and blameless in Genesis 17:1 after Ishmael was born and before Isaac was born?Text

Sorry I missed your question. Not intended to ignore you.
To answer your question is to say that Abram was blessed by God because of his faith in a monotheistic Creator. Not that he was aware of adultery being bad. Most all who could provide had several wives. It was the normal way of life at this time and in this environment. Abram was in the permissive will of God and not the perfect will of God.

Abram taught his children this very same way of life and that is why we see Jacob doing exactly the same as his father Abram. Regardless of when Sarai received the promise, Ishmael did receive his inheritance as a blessing from God but Ishmael was not the firstborn of the marriage. Ishmael was a bastard child in the permissive will of God. Here is where you are wrong in that you do not credit Sarai in the covenant of Abram. The very first covenant between man and God is that of his mate.

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one
flesh.

One Flesh. Man and woman are given in marriage and become one in God's perfect will. Adultery is not the perfect will of God. The covenant (agreement) between God and Abram also includes Sarah because in marriage Sari was one with Abram.

Ishmael was born when Abram was eighty eight years old. The covenant of circumcision was given when Abram was ninety nine years old. Even though Ishmael was not the seed of marriage, he was still blessed under the covenant of Abram some eleven years later. Being born out of wedlock is not the fault of Ishmael and it takes nothing away from his salvation. Jacob also had children who were born out of wed lock and they also received blessings through father Jacob but only one was given the seed of promise and that was his son Judah. That did not mean Judah was better than his siblings but only that through his seed the Messiah would be born.

God never said (Genesis 17:1) that Abram or Sari were perfect. Both had sinned against the perfect will of God. Sari sinned in thinking that she had a right to sanctify marriage and Abram from following her advise and committing adultery. Even though both were wrong both of them were counted as justification through Abram's faith in only one God and not by his deeds. Sin is still sin regardless of knowledge but sin is not accountable except through knowledge.

a reply to: Sahabi

Dear Sahabi, thank you for taking time to share your views. On the surface, what you've shown would seem to indicate a slighting of Ishmael. But, by the Spirit of God more is revealed unto completeness.

Judaism and Christianity are religions. Along with Islam, each claims authenticity over the other, competing for souls. Each applies the same basic principles of observing law-ritual and traditions to legitimize their practice, justify their understanding. All neglect and marginalizing is because of this, not from God, nor implied within scripture.

The way of God is spiritual. He is Spirit, and desires to be in fellowship with us in our soul, through Christ, according to Holy Spirit. This is the basis of the promised covenant with Abraham and the Seed given by the action of divine miracle. The first son Ishmael was not by a divinely appointed miracle, but by unbelief of Sarai and Abram going along with her.

But Faith was the basis of God promising Himself as the Seed revealed in the most necessary way for mans salvation. And this faith is the basis of Abram seeking to find God with whole heart, in due time listening to His voice and obeying. This trust, belief and obeying is also what Hagar did, and for that she and Ishmael also were blessed. This is the fellowship God desires with all humanity, as testified by witnesses recorded in Bible scripture. And the greatest witness is God Himself. All we need do to receive our share of the inheritance is to do what Abram did: seek God with whole heart to find Him; for He wants us to find Him in the most private personal place; Jeremiah -chapter 29, Romans -chapter 10.


Galatians -chapter 3 - from New King James Version (NKJV)

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH:

1. O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?

2. This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3. Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

4. Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

5. Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—

6. just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

7. Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham
beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

9. So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

THE LAW BRINGS A CURSE:

10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

11. But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

12. Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

14. that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

THE CHANGELESS PROMISE:

15. Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.

16. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

17. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

18. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

PURPOSE OF THE LAW:

19. What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

20. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

22. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

24. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

SONS OF HEIR:

26. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Galatian -chapter 4: verses 21-31;

TWO COVENANTS:

21. Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

22. For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.

23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,

24. which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—

25. for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—

26. but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27. For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

29. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

30. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

31. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

a reply to: yuppa

Hello, thanks for sharing. In reading the OT and NT, the commandments and grace apply to all; both given from the same Source, for the same purpose. Law is the basis of the commandments, but cannot save the soul. Commandments as law is fulfilled in loving God and others; Matthew -chapter 22: verses 34-40. Grace of unearned favor, through Faith of believing, trusting and obeying God brings enables us to fulfill lawfulness within, as a common instinctive essence of humanity. See also Romans -chapters 3 & 4, Galatians -chapters 3 & 4. What do you think?

a reply to: Seede

Hi Seede, thanks for sharing.

Yes, on the surface it seems adultery was committed, and Ishmael illegitimate. But, this is not the case. First and foremost, the covenant was to Abram as the one to whom promise could be given concerning Seed. He was promised the miracle of a son - Isaac through which the Seed - Christ would come; by way of 42 generations. Sarai was not the one to whom God spoke originally in establishing this covenant according to faith.

In other words, Abrams faith in freewill trust, belief and obedience, was accounted as righteous. His faith was not automatically attributed as the freewill faith of Sarai. She had to have this for herself. But on the other hand, she does benefit from Abrams faith, as we are shown. Another example of this is Noahs faith toward God, also accepted in the saving of his house-hold. Faith is always necessary to be pleasing to God; Hebrews -chapter 11. Just as significant is Sarah participating in Abrams blessing by accepting the promise given. But she did at first laugh at the notion, also think it necessary to compensate by giving her hand-maiden - Hagar.

Note it is not written that Abram or Sarai questioned God about this notion before, but instead did what seemed right in their own eyes. Nevertheless, God did permit it, but not as part of His original intent. Their complete trust was the perfect will. Their lack of trust led to an imperfect action, the result of the sin curse inherited. But, the sin is not a transgressing of a given law, but was against what is wise. In other words, the curse of sin affects our ability to use common sense (logic), i.e.: it is wise for men to only choose one wife, because multiple wives create conflict. As well, many men desire multiple wives by mere tradition, greed, not as someone seeking a singular devoted love with one partner, as with God's creation plan begun with Adam and Eve, which is the perfect will. However, if a man seeks a woman already serving as wife to another - this is adultery.

As for Ishmael: he is not illegitimate, because he is a product of some ones unwise choice. He did not qualify as the first-born intended to inherited the role as 'head of his fathers house.' But, he was qualified as one called to be of faith, just like his father. That inheritance is far greater in value, eternal in perpetuity. Plus, God blessed him and Hagar for the faith exhibited.

Ultimately, people assume a differentiation between 'perfect will' and 'permitted will', but there is no difference with God. His perfect will is always about what is permitted, is about always permitting what is perfect. It's more like all things working together for good, for those who love God, called for His purpose; Romans -chapter 8: verse 28. Perfect will is constant, always active, unchanging, because God changes not. God is perfect in wisdom that considers all possible options, various potentials and possibilities; always prepared to choose either one for the outcome of perfect will. Whether we obey or not - be it in part or completely; God has a plan that allows His ultimate desire to be fulfilled -without sin, imperfection or contradiction committed by Him. Any sin, imperfection or contradiction committed on our part, does not alter or interfere with God's will being perfect.
Therefore, there was no sin of adultery, because Hagar was not the wife of another. Likewise, there was no law given against multiple wives. This scripture further confirms what I am saying concerning this;

ROMANS -chapter 4: verses; 13-15

13. For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,

15. because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

originally posted by: Sadinoel
a reply to: Seede

Hi Seede, thanks for sharing.

Yes, on the surface it seems adultery was committed, and Ishmael illegitimate. But, this is not the case. First and foremost, the covenant was to Abram as the one to whom promise could be given concerning Seed. He was promised the miracle of a son - Isaac through which the Seed - Christ would come; by way of 42 generations. Sarai was not the one to whom God spoke originally in establishing this covenant according to faith.

.

Yes this is true. But Sarai represented the whole of the covenant. Any of Abrahams children outside of Sarai only received the Abraham side of the covenant.

Ah and alas.....Ismael's final dispensation was given his mother Hagar. Now compare what God told Hagar to what He said of Sarai children through Isaac.

originally posted by: Seede
Reply to Sahabi

a reply to: Seede Initially, the promise and covenant was only given to Abraham through the promise of his flesh and blood descendants, offspring, son, and heir,... not to Sarah. A promise to Sarah's only came long after the birth of Ishmael. Abraham takes Hagar as a wife. If this act was bad or against God's Will, why did God say that Abraham is faithful and blameless in Genesis 17:1 after Ishmael was born and before Isaac was born?Text

God never said (Genesis 17:1) that Abram or Sari were perfect. Both had sinned against the perfect will of God. Sari sinned in thinking that she had a right to sanctify marriage and Abram from following her advise and committing adultery. Even though both were wrong both of them were counted as justification through Abram's faith in only one God and not by his deeds. Sin is still sin regardless of knowledge but sin is not accountable except through knowledge.

Sari didn't sanctify marriage. Hagar was under her authority and legally as it was observed, Ismael fell under Sarah's holdings. The first time Hagar left the angel told her to go back and obey Sarah. Hagar was finally removed later as she tried to usurp Sarah i.e. the law trying to usurp the heir. And legally once Sarah gave birth there was no longer even a question. Had Sarah not given birth then maybe there would have been legal grounds.

As far as this claim of adultery....as long as Hagar was under the authority of Sarah there was no adultery. Hagar is better described as a surrogate which is more descriptive of the law. The law is never described as adultery but rather in the classical descriptions given by the prophets adultery was the result of separation from Gods law. Hagar and Ismael as representative of law were only as good as they were under the authority of promise.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Hello OB, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I was glad to hear your testimony of how you came to know Him. I too came to receive Him completely, when I took time to hear His voice within. But prior to this, I simply went along with religious Christianity, church-house idolatry system. As a result, I suppressed the need to seek Him with whole heart, to find Him directly; Jeremiah -chapter 29: verses 11-15. Now that I know better, I seek to share my testimony as well. Keep up the good work in the power of His might, God bless.

a reply to: AlephBet

Hello Alephbet, thanks for sharing. In reading your comments, I felt the need to respond.

Your concerns of identifying Yahweh are important. If you have not already, please review your scriptures by way of Strongs Lexicon Concordance, and you will find the following:

By written record we are shown the witness testimony of our Creator. Whether by way of Adam, Noah, Abram, Moses on, humanity is shown the progressive reintroduction of knowing God. From the destructive effects if sin, mankind needed to be re-established in various ways, including language communication, textual writing, skills of labor, dietary nutrition, social order to name a few. From the first sin in the Garden onward, mankind needed to relearn how to identify God, differences from that which is not.

The term Yahweh or YHWH are equal to Yehovah in meaning; the One who is Lord and God. Whenever Yehovah Elohim appears, this is Lord God; Supreme, Self-existent, Eternal; all powerful, all knowing, all present.

With the terms Adonay, Elohim; each is an emphatic form of adown or 'elowahh, which were both used for things or people. Thus, the emphatic forms were used to differentiate the true and living God apart from all else.

Therefore, God Almighty is the One spoken of in Isaiah, Ezekiel as proclaiming judgment against the sinful.

As for Revelation:

Revelation 12:8-10 -New King James Version (NKJV)

8. but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

9. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

The father of lies is Satan, but God did not create in this form. He was created an angel for good, but like humanity, he chose evil instead. Thus, the reason his name is changed to Satan; destroyer, cunning, accuser, adversary.

You imply Yahweh shed Adams blood, used Satan to deceive Eve. This is impossible since God tempts no one with sin or evil, deception is for trapping someone in sin for evil; James -chapter 1. God does however test us according to what we are able to handle, as we are equipped to build us up and strengthen. Eve was deceived, because she desired something other than what God had for her. She placed this desire above obeying God for the sake of trust.

As for Adam; God appointed the skinning of an animal to cover Adam and Eve in their sin. This sacrifice was continued through the shedding of animal blood, as an act of sacrifice and trust between God and mankind, until Christ gave Himself in human form.

Furthermore, the testimony given in scripture is very clear who Lord God is, who Satan is, who Adam, Joshua, and all others are. Though there
are times when God may symbolize Himself in the name of someone; this is in name only, because of what the name means, i.e.: Joshua = Jehovah-saved, Elijah = God of Jehovah, Jesus = the Lord Saves.

Finally, there is no such thing as the higher and lower mind of mankind. Mind - reason - logic - conscience; are all spirit/soul, which came from God. This aspect is meant to be perfect in maturity, just as God is; Matthew -chapter 5.

After reviewing this, let me know what you think.

Check out these links, if you need:
www.blueletterbible.org www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

a reply to: Logarock

Hi, thanks. What are your thoughts about this?

TWO COVENANTS:

21. Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

22. For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.

23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,

24. which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—

25. for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—

26. but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27. For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

29. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

30. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

31. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

a reply to: AllIsOne

What is not credible about it to you?

a reply to: Sadinoel


Yes I am familiar with this section of scripture. Its fairly clear and powerful. Its really about the law being heir....the bondwoman trying to usurp. As long as the law stays a handmaiden is really ok.

Paul says some other things about the law elsewhere that temper this section of his writings. Romans 7 and 3.....the famous statement..."What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means"! ...."Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law".

I understand that these two comments are in a context....but...Paul still talks about knowing what sin is by the law and living by the law of the Spirit to good works. And Paul still reaches into the law here and there when need be. He even says that men having long hair is a shame without taking into account Samson special grace in that account.

There and elsewhere Paul is trying to transfer the good of the law, the schoolmaster, to Christ. We are no longer bound to the law in certain respects. Living by the law of the Spirit isn't licenses as some would have it as I am sure you are familiar with that whole thing. But its really about the law as persecutor and schoolmaster that Paul is trying to break free from. But he had this problem which he spends a good amount of time on.... How can I break the chains of the law without becoming a lawless person. I mean even Sarah was still under the law to her husband as long as he remained alive. Now we are no longer bound to the law because it has died with Christ and we embrace Christ resurrected as the new husband.....but not unto lawlessness! Paul said that it was the law that made him sin but does not say that in Christ its ok to sin. So if Paul suggests that the law made him sin then how can we justify sin in Christ now? Well we cant and thats not what Paul was saying. We just cant sin in faith which is where many have taken this to conclusion. We cant just "do as we will" because we are no longer under bound status with the law. If that were the case then Paul would have never admonished that some should be turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.