Mercy

The crucifixion... my impression? All I have to go on is hearsay... and my impression is that it was/is a brutal act wrought by ignorant, cruel humans upon a guy talking about love and empathy.... or business as usual by some people.

As far as the thread title... mercy... wouldn't a truly merciful God have decided to not make us at all, seeing how terrible and uncomfortable human life (and animal for that matter) can be?

Not to be ungrateful, and I really love being conscious and aware most of the time... but if I was never born, I'd be exposed to zero angst/pain... so maybe God made us to alleviate his terrible loneliness... but if he already made pain-free, immortal beings like angles, then the reason to make us mortals escapes me... except as a vanity project that went a tad wrong.

But Jesus is a wonderful concept and Christianity holds many truths... as long as one doesn't stray from the love message, that is.

a reply to: Baddogma

What better way to learn then to experience though?

it seems many people are lost as to why we are here, but the answer is very simple...

this planet is like a school, and we are here to learn... and experience

a reply to: Akragon

Yeah, agreed (with caveats... mostly a "maybe" with me) but that reply missed my possibly poorly worded point... obviously being aware involves learning... and pain really teaches fast! But why were we possibly lesser beings made at all, then? Couldn't God have "made" us like him... not needing pain to learn? Already perfect with omniscience?

Why were we made so fragile, short lived and ignorant? Why couldn't God at least have put his instruction book directly into our psyches so the stuff in the Bible didn't need to even be written down? He IS God... right?

a reply to: backcase

The Crucifixion of Christ reminds me that no human will ever suffer as much as Jesus did while He was on the cross. Sure, many have been beaten, crucified and worse, but no man has ever had to bare the burden of ALL sin in his flesh. Jesus is alone in that club.

a reply to: Baddogma

The funny thing is that you're basically quoting the bible with a Buddhist spin...

Does it not say we are made in his image?

Doesn't Buddha say suffering is not necessary?

Is it not true that Gods law is "written in our hearts"... yet most choose to ignore what should be blatantly obvious?

And when it comes down to it, even though this world is beautiful in many aspects... Would you want to be here longer then your current "life term"?

a reply to: Akragon

Yup... to all you wrote, heh...

I'm the kid in the class who, though ignorant, drives the nun crazy because I ask about details ... paradoxical details, in my defense, that validly question the narrative and dogmas of the big three Abrahamic religions.

Don't get me wrong, I know there is more going on than meets the mortal eye... and I'm all for love and life... but there are these darned details...

Then again, if religion made perfect sense there wouldn't be so many religions, agnostics and atheists. Everyone would just Know.

a reply to: AlephBet

sorry I took so long in replying, you're always setting tasks before me.

Jesus is not Adam, but He is the new Adam.

Adam begot a race according to flesh and blood and most obviously sin. Thus we were born into mankind to live in sin and grow no high than that level of being which flesh can have.

Jesus is the new Adam, or the new First Parent Who adopts us and welcomes us into the world of the spirit. The Flesh and Blood He gives us are the Life of the Spirit, and we are now no longer members of Adam, but members of Christ.

Baptism:

In baptism we are grafted into the tree. We become of the new generation that starts with Jesus. We accept the Cross which is the death of the Seed, which being buried springs forth into everlasting life in ourselves. Although we were born in sin, we are baptized into the New Family.

a reply to: Baddogma

Then again, if religion made perfect sense there wouldn't be so many religions, agnostics and atheists. Everyone would just Know.

But they all believe that peace is a good thing. Atheists, agnostics, and the different religions may disagree on how to achieve that peace (how people should live, etc.) but they all see peace as an important thing. Trying to avoid pain and suffering for peace is a universal thing.

love (empathy, sympathy, compassion, "do unto others as you would have them do to you" or whatever other word you wish to use) is the way to achieve that peace.

a reply to: backcase

Is Jesus the Son of God?

Luke 3

38 the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.

a reply to: AlephBet

and Mary

a reply to: Akragon

not at all... HE was not claiming to be God...

Then you don't know the significance of that statement to the Jews. By Him saying He was the Great I AM, He was saying: "I'm YHWH. I was speaking to Moses from the burning bush." The reaction from the high priest after he said that tells you everything you need to know. Perhaps it's lost on our Western culture, but to the Jew He was saying,"I'm God."

They promptly condemned Him to death for blasphemy. He also claimed to be the Lord in His first public teaching recorded in the gospels. He read from an OT prophecy from God that when the Jews heard it they immediately sought to throw Him off a cliff for blasphemy. And He just passed right through the angry lynch mob without them able to put a finger on Him.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Oh I know all too well what Christians want him to be... I know every claim out there according to Christianity...

Its just not correct...

According to the Jews yeah that's what he was saying, but even today you can't associate anything with God in that religion... They find it blasphemous to even type God... You'll always see G-D

The fact is he was exactly what he claimed to be... the Son of God...

The Christian creeds want to make him "equal" to God, but in reality there is nothing that came from him that made him equal, Even in the gospel of John where you'll find anything even remotely claiming he was God... You'll find him saying I am not equal, The Father is greater then I... The servant is not greater then the master... etc etc...

This extends all the way back to Nicea... Athanasius might have won that argument, Under suspicious circumstances of course, but Arius actually was correct... which is where you get what the majority of Christians proclaim in their services these days...

Unlike what is claimed, his Name was not as significant as you believe... In Isaiah it says he will be called Everlasting Father... But Jesus said call No man Father... Its also said he was called a drunkard... but shall we believe that as well?

No no... Jesus did not claim to be God.... Christians can do as much cutting and pasting of verses as they wish... but anyone who has actually read the gospels in depth will know better...

a reply to: Akragon

On that point we will never agree. And He wasn't made God at Nicaea, the apostles creed predates Nicaea by quite some time. At Nicaea the Arian heresy was officially addressed and nobody voted with Arius. Furthermore, in John's vision in 90 A.D. which he penned in his Apocalypse, Jesus says to him that He is the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty. This isn't hard to grasp from the position of the Trinity. To look at it from any other position than the Trinitarian position there will be some serious conflicts.

a reply to: backcase

"love your enemies"
"turn the other cheek"
"bless those who curse you"
"do good to them that hate you"

It seems like Christ gave a lot of teachings of mercy and love.

The Crucifixion shows how strongly Christ believed in love and mercy because even when he was in a lot of pain because of the ones who crucified him, he said "forgive them, Father".

a reply to: NOTurTypical

On that point we will never agree. And He wasn't made God at Nicaea, the apostles creed predates Nicaea by quite some time.

Where exactly did you learn that?

And im not saying it isn't true... but I've never heard that before as far as I can recall... and it still doesn't make it correct in any case...

At Nicaea the Arian heresy was officially addressed and nobody voted with Arius.

Yes I know that... I've read the existing letters from that "controversy"

And yes there were quite a few that sided with Arius... It wasn't him against the rest like you may believe...

And as I've said... Arius was correct... HE stuck to what was written... Athanasius did not...

Furthermore, in John's vision in 90 A.D. which he penned in his Apocalypse, Jesus says to him that He is the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty. This isn't hard to grasp from the position of the Trinity. To look at it from any other position than the Trinitarian position there will be some serious conflicts.

Well that is my entire issue I suppose... the trinity isn't biblical... but I know you will disagree with that...

Johns revelation was exactly that... Johns words not Jesus...

Its quite hard to "grasp" something that isn't taught in the bible actually... Anyone without a Trinitarian bias would never come to the Trinitarian conclusion... simply because the teaching isn't there unless one plays the patch work game with scripture which seems to be acceptable to Christianity...

a reply to: Akragon

Where exactly did you learn that?

The Nicean creed was 4th century, and Apostle's creed is largely believed to have originated in the late 1st or 2nd century.

Do you realize the apostles, all of them besides John, were put to death for refusing to recant 2 things, that Jesus Christ was God and that He did resurrect from the dead. These men willfully went to their death for this position, and even 2 of Jesus' half-brothers (James and Judas). Do you have a brother or sister? Could you imagine what it would take for them to abandon their lifelong religion and proclaim that you are God?

the trinity isn't biblical...

Again I don't agree. Peter says that 2 things are the "spirit of antichrist", one is to deny the relationship between the Father and the Son, second is to deny the divinity of Christ. Entire religions were invented (Islam) to deny these two things.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Welcome back NuT.

Do you realize the apostles, all of them besides John, were put to death for refusing to recant 2 things, that Jesus Christ was God and that He did resurrect from the dead. These men willfully went to their death for this position, and even 2 of Jesus' half-brothers (James and Judas). Do you have a brother or sister? Could you imagine what it would take for them to abandon their lifelong religion and proclaim that you are God?

What evidence do you have of your claims?

Do you realize that no less than 6000 men were crucified on crosses outside the walls of Jerusalem for refusing to say that Caesar was God? Do you realize that it's claimed that 1 million Jews were killed by the Romans for refusing to say that Caesar was God around 70AD?

a reply to: windword

Hey thank you, I missed it here I'm happy to be back, although I'm still having issues finding my way around here with the new layout. And early church historians and the disciples of the apostles have written much about the 1st century church.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

The Nicean creed was 4th century, and Apostle's creed is largely believed to have originated in the late 1st or 2nd century.

Sure... it wasn't "the apostles" that made it though

Do you realize the apostles, all of them besides John, were put to death for refusing to recant 2 things, that Jesus Christ was God and that He did resurrect from the dead.

Do you realise its very clear the followers of Jesus were clueless as to what Jesus was saying most of the time?

They didn't teach that he was God... Now Johns gospel says "the word was God, and the word was made flesh" etc etc... but his gospel was pieced together from what could be considered a Johannine community... and even that was a long time after Jesus died, and likely john as well... Even today the earliest piece of ANY gospel we have is the size of a credit card, a small chunk of Johns gospel... and even that dates to the second century... No where near the actual time of Johns life...

These men willfully went to their death for this position, and even 2 of Jesus' half-brothers (James and Judas). Do you have a brother or sister? Could you imagine what it would take for them to abandon their lifelong religion and proclaim that you are God?

im not knocking their sacrifice... to die for ones beliefs is quite amazing... but the idea that Jesus was God wasn't one of those beliefs... that idea came much later...

Again I don't agree. Peter says that 2 things are the "spirit of antichrist", one is to deny the relationship between the Father and the Son, second is to deny the divinity of Christ. Entire religions were invented (Islam) to deny these two things.

Sure... but the relationship between the Father and son is NOT one of equality... Jesus said it specifically... To deny that he admitted he was less then the Father is to call him a liar... In fact so is calling him God...

That would make him a liar my omission...

A son is NOT equal to his Father... EVER...

a reply to: arpgme

what do you think of the scene of the two thieves crucified with Jesus? What significance do you find therein?