Season of the Witch

a reply to: Bluesma

This comment here makes me wonder if the riddle-me this, long way around isn't stimulated by a fear of conflict? In avoiding conflict through being vague and implicit, you stimulate negative emotions in others.

There you go again Ms Blues

While you're wondering, I'll wait for all the smoke blown to clear and get back to all this later

For now: Come again? Who is it exactly that's afraid of conflict?

:-)

ummm but what you aren't getting is that many of these women wouldn't be pushing if they didn't feel like some where trying to push us backwards into that time that they are so convinced was so blissfull but really wasn't!
the only acceptable answer to many of their gripes (like child support) to give them equal earning potential along with equal responsiblilties both in the financial area along with those chores that have been traditionally assigned to women!
it is those stereotypes along with the pychological programming that they've created that creates the need for the child support and who gets custody to begin with!
regardless of what I believed about myself I couldn't convince my boss that I was worth more or even equal to that of an inexperienced man doing the same job I was doing. and that wasn't that long ago maybe a decade or so. I had to quit to convince him of that it was only then when he found himself hiring three employees to get the work I was doing done that he maybe understood!

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma

This comment here makes me wonder if the riddle-me this, long way around isn't stimulated by a fear of conflict? In avoiding conflict through being vague and implicit, you stimulate negative emotions in others.

There you go again Ms Blues

While you're wondering, I'll wait for all the smoke blown to clear and get back to all this later

For now: Come again? Who is it exactly that's afraid of conflict?

:-)

Then why must I "promise not to take it as an insult or a criticism? " I am just trying to make sense of that weird demand.
Why is that so important to you? You ask me to do something for you, and you don't bother to explain why?

I said I wonder if that is the reason, I did not state that it was... but the guessing game is what you have decided to play, so I am doing it.
What is so fun about this for you?

a reply to: Bluesma

I feel I must touch on this particular topic, that being - women holding a semblance of power in the workplace. From my lengthy experience, I have noticed, more often than not, that both young and women in positions of power really don't know how to handle that power and don't use their feminine positive qualities, therefore most are not positive and effective leaders or role models because most of them mimic men's behaviour in this regard, in the corporate profit-making world.

I have encountered very few women who challenged the status quo and attempted to manage people in their own special ways, by including them as a valuable, contributory team members working together for a mutual goal, treating them with dignity and respect, and having one-on-one meetings for not just employee performance reviews, but also welcomed management performance reviews, which just does not happen today.

What I notice lately, if you voice your opinion, or try to explain your position in regards to a work-related incident that may contradict your supervisor, it is not welcomed, rather managerial behaviour suggests that type of behaviour should be considered employee insubordination, or label the person as a 'difficult' employee, rather than listening to other points of views as a contribution to improvement. You must fit into the culture of the day, week, or year for that company.

It may go hand-in-hand with the phenomenal amount of stress I notice that is intertwined with the unrealistic expectations and overburdened tasks piled upon women, usually by their male bosses who delegate much more to a woman seeking to climb the ladder of corporate success than a male counterpart. Perhaps this is why many women turn back into roles where they are treated in a more fair manner, that being, roles that are accepted as a woman's place. I recall once seeing an immigrant female engineer have not only more responsibilities piled on her than her male engineer counterparts, but by virtue of her sex, was then asked to perform lower office duties normally assigned to women only - not surprisingly, she quit. In that same company, the next immigrant female engineer was treated in exactly the same way, but she did not have the luxury of quitting, but was extremely overworked, exhausted and unhappy.

I have also witnessed abuse of power by men towards men in the workplace. In one instance, a Manager stated to one member of his all-male team, after the man put forth an idea, that he did not want to hear any contrary ideas to his own and that he would not tolerate it, all the while yelling and intimidating this man so the whole office could hear it.

I have also been on a think panel where the male Chair of the panel was sent on a two week, all expense paid, training session, where myself and another woman were send on a two day training session where all expenses were not covered, that included my gas and I had to drive a far distance. During the meeting the Chair expected her and I to handle all the work - they call that delegating work don't they? - I called it unfair and voiced that sentiment to him, stating that due to his lengthy training compare to our questionable length of training, that it should be him to put down the framework because his two weeks training would lend itself to a more comprehensive and informative plan. Needless to say, he didn't want to do all that hard work, but he had no qualms in delegating it to two women with lesser training and education in the matter. He then went to the top boss (male) who ordered me and her to do all the work, whereupon I quit the panel and walked away, as was my only option to protest unfairness in that particular workplace.

So, what do we have here? Managers of both genders using power to manipulate subordinates in conscious (goals and tasks to be accomplished for the greater good of the company and employees) and subconscious (actions directly proportional to their fear in losing power, or fear of failure, or worse, pathological personality or mental disorders allowed to run rampant). The working world is a different place from one's private and family life, so I would not compare behaviours because expectations vary and, therefore, reactions and behaviour will also vary.

As for women using manipulation within their families, I cannot speak for those women because family dynamics are so very complex and everyone takes on roles within a family unit for many reasons, and all family members are capable of using manipulative and/or controlling behaviour.

So, my battle has and is not with the sexes, it is with the lack of fairness.

a reply to: InTheLight

Okay, I hear you.

But I'll tell you the thoughts and memories that arose in me as I read this-

I witness things that make me think that there is often misunderstanding between men and women about expectations.
Like I have seen women get unfair amounts of work piled on them, and less to the men.
Then I witnessed the men who did less get a promotion. My first thought was "sexism"!!!!

But listening quietly while the boss chatted with someone else, what I heard was "she doesn't have the force of character to handle the job..." with the explanation that she just accepts whatever is dropped on her and says nothing! She doesn't know how to be independent and make firm judgements of common sense.

Then, later, I heard (one of the perks of being rather quiet and unoticeable is that people don't realize how much you are taking in around you) this boss going to one of those males that got a promotion despite his extreme laziness (my judgement) and telling him to do some really hard crapwork- and he refused, quite disrespectfully. They argued back and forth for a while, then the boss went and told a woman to do it. She did. I realized that in the other cases, he may have tried to lay that extra load on the guys and they had responded that way- the desired way.

That was a revelation for me... and yet as I thought it over more, and observed more, it started to fit into the kind of male behavior I watch dads do with their kids, for example- the challenge given exactly to encourage them to speak up for themselves and oppose. The women who have (like me, actually) this way of seeing things as if we are part of a collective effort , and having chose it, it is expected that we do whatever we can for it to thrive (assuming that is also what our coworkers and superiors are doing) will put the demands made on us before our own well being.
Men don't often see it that way. They consider some amount of ego and self preservation essential, especially when it comes to jobs of more responsibility. Without a big ego, they fear you'll be a pushover, and your inferiors will spot and use your dedication (my word- theirs would be weakness) to manipulate you.

In my mind, the person who pushes themselves to the end of their capabilities to do their job as asked has a great amount of character and self discipline- for the men around me, that is a lack of character and will. It is a totally different perspective.

I also had a job interview in which a question was asked of me (and my daughter related the same experience once) in which it was demanded, "If your superior makes a decision that you see is a bad one- like really just driving the business into a wall- what would you do?"

I was thinking, I would meet with him and tell him, do everything I could to show how this was a bad decision, but in the end, if he would not change his mind, I would obey, with the idea in mind of moving up to take his place in the future and do things differently.

I could tell the person was not satisfied with that answer (and I didn't get the job). So I have since talked about this with other people, and what I've learned is that the desired response is "I will refuse to do it." Period.

Being challenged, being provoked, even being insulted, is often times a masculine way of gauging someones self confidence and will, or even of trying to help develop it. But women so often don't stand up to it and respond- not because they lack will, but because they don't often value ego to the same extent. The whole is more important than the self.

I think this causes misunderstandings between the sexes- women feel they are being harrassed or abused in situations that men just expect and respond to differently. Is it possible that, though we have the right to integrate these areas of life, we haven't quite understood how it works sometimes ? (or at least some if us haven't). The successful women in the exterior is often characterized as a bitch- perhaps the ones that have gotten it have!

Then, well there is also assholes everywhere, of each sex, let's not forget....

a reply to: Bluesma

As for that interview question, my answer would be that I would go over my Supervisor's head to the top if need be, to save the company from rack and ruin. I have noticed throughout the decades in the workplace, that most people in authority should not be there and just can't handle the smidgeon of power given them.

Again, I think women need to challenge the status quo and if given the reins to power and success, that they opt not mimic men's questionable problematic behaviours in those roles - the times they need a changing.

a reply to: InTheLight

The was an order of magnets going through our shop once. They were rather physically demanding a pain to do but well pretty basic as far as the printing goes and all the printers (all male by the way) were standing around arguing with the foreman as to who should be printing them.. the job was beneath them was what I caught onto from what I heard. And the order sat there a few days as they argued till I just got sick of the arguing (what can I say I was hearing enough of that crap at home living with my husband and three sons!) So well I went up to the foreman and told him to just let me do them It was the only printing that I was allowed to take full reign of although I knew just about everything as far as printing went and thank god someone was bringing me the stock because at that point my foot was so bad (matter of fact think it was how I hurt it in the first place) I would have never been able to push and pull over a ton of magnets anywhere but well I got them printed in less time than the printers would have and with less problems.
But if I hadn't offered to do them one of two things would have happened
either the foreman or boss would have set the job up to run and it would have been me at the end of the belt running quality control and in my foreman's case it would have been disasterous because he knew less about the printer than I did
or the danged things would still be there waiting to be printed and the company would have lost a customer.
I got a feeling if we women start acting the same way as the men in the workplace there would be alot of companies in trouble!

a reply to: dawnstar

The philosophy of the workplace also needs to change, in that, every job is important, which it actually is - if we think about the big picture. The foreman didn't assert the authority given to him and allowed chaos to run rampant and he should have been called on it. I hope you were shown acknowledgement and appreciation for your stepping up when nobody else would.

a reply to: Bluesma

Then why must I "promise not to take it as an insult or a criticism? " I am just trying to make sense of that weird demand.
Why is that so important to you? You ask me to do something for you, and you don't bother to explain why?

I said I wonder if that is the reason, I did not state that it was... but the guessing game is what you have decided to play, so I am doing it.
What is so fun about this for you?

I hear the objection rising up already…. But listen first, read carefully, before you voice it! In any case, most people know, to form a strong rebuttal, you must read carefully, and find all the tiniest holes to poke- surely some will be found, but you have to pay attention to be able to exploit them properly.

This is why it’s fun for me bluesma - it’s because you invited us to play a game. And - I love arguing. I’m here for the argument. You put out a lovely spread

So I nod to those claims of women being often (I’ll be using generalizations here- let it be known that is what they are- they refer to ratios, to a majority of said group, but not all) masters of covert manipulation.

The majority? Honestly? Masters of manipulation? Numbers please… Do you count yourself among these master manipulators - or do you see yourself as something of a straight shooter?

Gloves came off during the last round. Don’t let the language throw you Bluesma - if you want to make passive aggressiveness your theme I’ll only point out how interesting I find it that any behavior you either don’t understand or don’t approve of seems to fall into this category

First thing's first. I made a request, not a demand - and it was friendly. Honest :-)

You are suspicious - but this is a forum - and we are only talking. You asked us to exploit a few holes, and well - I thought you meant that. If you see everything and anyone who disagrees with you as being passive-aggressive I can only say: I think I’ve found at least one hole. Should I exploit it?

P.S. Bluesma: your last post made me laugh - out loud :-) In a good way

Heads up first- it's been a long day at work, I've had a glass of wine, and I'm on my husbands ipad, which keeps turning my words into french. I am handicapped!

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

This is why it’s fun for me bluesma - it’s because you invited us to play a game. And - I love arguing. I’m here for the argument. You put out a lovely spread

I am all for arguing! But that presumes an argument to be presented- as InTheLight has done. Not just a vague sarcastic indication of disagreement, but an honest description of how and why. She is projecting herself and engaging with me (as is Dawnstar) . I can relate to the pleasure of speaking your mind, but find it hard to understand thé pleasure in " poke, run, watch thé other squirm in confusion" (at least that is what it seems like to me).

The majority? Honestly? Masters of manipulation? Numbers please… Do you count yourself among these master manipulators - or do you see yourself as something of a straight shooter?

I don't have numbers, it is an opinion, not a fact.The implicit nature of what I refer to would make it impossible to measure!
Yes, i considère myself a major player in emotional manipulation. Though, as with most women, I think this only comes into play with those close to me, who know me, trust me, and have confidence in my intent and my insight. It is thé reason my friends, my siblings, my children, my parents, and my husband reach out to me in times of emotional struggle. My brother flew hère to France after a terrible break-up to speak with me, my sister asked to Skype with me yesterday because she is going through that mid âge crisis that happens at about 40, my stepfather has flown me out to be with him twice while going through scary surgeries. My son is coming tomorrow because hé is struggling with thé woman he loves and said hé needs to talk to me.

Thèse people have come to trust my intents, and know that my insight will not be used to hurt them- my words are directed towards their well being, they will walk away with their emotional state changed- it Will be moved and manipulated. Which is what they want when that state is undesireable.

Gloves came off during the last round. Don’t let the language throw you Bluesma - if you want to make passive aggressiveness your theme I’ll only point out how interesting I find it that any behavior you either don’t understand or don’t approve of seems to fall into this category

I don't understand this. But I.ll try again tomorrow morning , on computer I don.t have to wrestle with!

First thing's first. I made a request, not a demand - and it was friendly. Honest :-)

Sorry, translation blip- in french to demand means to ask, thé words so similar, I used it without remembering it has a more forceful meaning in english.

You are suspicious - but this is a forum - and we are only talking. You asked us to exploit a few holes, and well - I thought you meant that. If you see everything and anyone who disagrees with you as being passive-aggressive I can only say: I think I’ve found at least one hole. Should I exploit it?

Yes ! Argue! Please! Tell me what you disagree with and why and how! Why tease and speak in riddles?
How do you think you are helping me in that behavior?

a reply to: Bluesma
I'm not InTheLight or Dawnstar - that's not going to change. Gots to be me

Also - I'm writing in English

:-)

How about we try again tomorrow - when you're not in your cups and forced to speak French

You crack me up Bluesma

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

You did read my first posts carefully, right? Which distinguish covert and ouvert manipulation?
My whole thesis hère being the position that - why wear gloves in thé first place? If you are trying to manipulate my emotions, provoke a change in how I feel, why do that in hidden ways? If you truly believe you have intents which line up with mine, why not just be direct?

My point of view is that if someone is being covert with their manipulations, it is because they either know their intent is destructive, or they have been taught that to manipulate emotions in others is bad to do.

I'm ok with having my emotions moved around- redecorate! But be honest about it so I can be part of that process!

a reply to: Bluesma

My whole thesis hère being the position that - why wear gloves in thé first place? If you are trying to manipulate my emotions, provoke a change in how I feel, why do that in hidden ways? If you truly believe you have intents which line up with mine, why not just be direct?

You did read my first posts carefully, right? Which distinguish covert and ouvert manipulation?

Did it ever occur to you that you're not reading my posts carefully? :-)

It's only language - not deception

I'm trying to get you to recognize something - but as a friend of mine often used to say: you can lead a horse to water, but a pencil has to be lead. I'm a surrealist, so...I think that 's funny. Anyhow - here, this is not my first real point, but: I'm not trying to manipulate you, play with your emotions or provoke a change of any kind. It's not about that

Why is your first assumption (or accusation) always that I am up to no good? :-) How many other times - in your life, or here in this thread - have you assumed this same kind of thing of women? This thread is all about women - no? (That was French right there). Maybe I'm just fulfilling my destiny :-)

Being a bitch is being pressed onto girls from every side- the feminists and the masculinists. The only variation is what direction they should direct it.

It really is not surprising we are turning out a generation of bitchy females.

Bitchiness is in the eye of the beholder. Do you think maybe you still don't like women Bluesma? Unless their behavior is something you recognize and approve of, it seems to bother you. You do believe that benevolent manipulation is a power and a right - a gift. But you don't like sneaky, manipulative or self promoting women

You say you want girls to learn how to best use a secret power they don't actually (exclusively) own - a power you say comes from being oppressed even though we were never actually oppressed - except we were kinda - but that's because we wanted it that way...

Now, lest (yes, lest) you begin to believe that I'm making this personal - I promise you it's not about you, your opinion, or this thread. There are plenty of women that feel the way you do. There are also plenty of women who would agree with you here:

The men I am closest to feel almost powerless faced with their internal worlds, so either choose to discount and ignore their emotions as much as possible, or just accept that at times, that part is simply beyond their willful ability to control and they cannot be held accountable for it

Poor dears - helpless after all. If only they were more like women

Women judging women is nothing new, women judging men or men judging women are nothing new. This recent backlash against feminism and feminists is new, because - feminism is still new-ish...

There are differences between the sexes. They are profound. They aren't (I don't think) what you think they are or what you say they are

“Most men (and women) lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them.” ( Henry David Thoreau)

The human condition would benefit most - I think - by recognizing and rewarding our common strengths. Our differences too. No more of this petty, self indulgent, limiting, segregated one-upmanship. We all have rich internal lives. We all have insight into each other. We all shore each other up - and we all hurt each other in a thousand different ways

To bitch or not to bitch, that is the question - or - how to get what you want through manipulation.

www.forbes.com...

a reply to: Bluesma

I'm ok with having my emotions moved around- redecorate! But be honest about it so I can be part of that process!

That's not something I would ever do Bluesma - I think you're fine just the way you are

We just disagree

:-)

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

-I'm trying to get you to recognize something

- I'm not trying to manipulate you, play with your emotions or provoke a change of any kind.

These two statements are incongruent. You want to get me to recognize something.
New awareness brings about a change in internal state of being and feeling.
So you want to manipulate my internal state

Why is your first assumption (or accusation) always that I am up to no good?

It is not! It seems you are attaching a negative judgement upon the word "manipulation"?
I use it (as I have said) in a neutral way : to manipulate a machine, for example; not all people that manipulate a machine are doing so in a destructive way. It can be done in constructive ways, it can be done with more or less skill. But if a person is sneaking into a factory at night, avoiding security cameras, to do so, it will be suspected they are doing so because they have ill intent they are hiding.

Applying this here, and with many women, I suspect, it is not because they always have ill intent, but because they have been conditioned to believe that manipulation of this sort is evil under all circumstances, so even if doing it with good intent, they do it covertly. This is what encourages the belief that it is evil (by both sexes) , and it becomes a vicious circle.

How many other times - in your life, or here in this thread - have you assumed this same kind of thing of women?

I have often perceived women as trying to manipulate emotions, in ways which were constructive, and ways that are destructive.
I observed that those who used it in destructive ways, also held the belief that to manipulate emotions is inherently bad to do.
The ones that used it in constructive ways also held the belief that it can be good to manipulate emotions sometimes.

It could be argued that the ethical belief is true for each according to their intent....my thesis here is that the belief came first (through cultural conditioning), which became a self-fulfilling prophecy for their intents.
Convince a girl early on that it is bad to influence how others feel inside, it won't stop her from having an influence, or recognizing that she does, but her belief that it is bad shall make it so- taboo effect)

Do you think maybe you still don't like women Bluesma? Unless their behavior is something you recognize and approve of, it seems to bother you. You do believe that benevolent manipulation is a power and a right - a gift. But you don't like sneaky, manipulative or self promoting women

I think being self promoting is good, healthy, and beneficial (not only a personal scale, but in regards to their environment too).

I think manipulating the psychology of others can be very good too. I think being dishonest or sneaky about it deprives it of it's beneficial effect though. Hide it, deny it, and it becomes stagnant and smelly.

I'm probably running along the lines of Nietzsche here, and his "slave mentality".
I think it would be constructive and beneficial if more women stepped out of the slave mentality.
Trying to convince more women they are oppressed right now, creates more slave mentality, which provokes more oppression, which provokes more slave mentality, etc. etc......

You say you want girls to learn how to best use a secret power they don't actually (exclusively) own - a power you say comes from being oppressed even though we were never actually oppressed - except we were kinda - but that's because we wanted it that way...

No. That is not an accurate translation of what I have said.

1 - it doesn't have to be done in secret- there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

2- Men and women have this capability and can develop it, though the evolution of our culture (and perhaps biology, the ways our brains work, as they adapted to environmental influences) a higher percentage of women than men feel drawn to doing it more often.

3- This might have developed through oppression, which we did not want, it was a negative experience, and yet now, we could be left with something as a result that we can use positively.
(this could be looked at as any negative experience we have had in our own life too- the bad things that happened to us could still have given forth lessons, skills, knowledge, or impulsions that are useful now. Mistakes are often our biggest teachers!).

Poor dears - helpless after all. If only they were more like women

God no! The sexes have different strengths, in which they can be of aid to each other. (I personally think men as a whole have developed more strength in the area of manipulating the exterior world of physics and objects, which is equally valuable ). I see value in the fact that we are different, which allows us to collaborate and combine our different strengths, in co-creative efforts!!!

It is not either/or. If we acknowledge women having something particular to inject into relationships and to the society, that doesn't mean men don't! Or that women are more important than men, or better, or whatever you are sarcastically trying to suggest here.

Women judging women is nothing new, women judging men or men judging women are nothing new. This recent backlash against feminism and feminists is new, because - feminism is still new-ish...

I guess new-ishness is a relative measurement- it seems old to me, personally. But I think the backlash is because earlier, what women were fighting for was very concrete- laws which applied equally to men and women (the right to vote, etc.)
Now it is less clear what is being fought for, and extreme positions provoke extreme opinions. I think the media plays up the extreme opinions, and encourages a more severe battle between the sexes.

There are differences between the sexes. They are profound. They aren't (I don't think) what you think they are or what you say they are

Okay. I get that you disagree with my view. That is fine and good- stand by your position, I am all for that!
It would be more interesting if you shared what those differences you perceive are... but there is no obligation here.
I will maybe stand by my position anyway, and we could hold up our views and just describe the contrasts between them. (meaning I may not come to agree with you, I might still argue my own position, but that doesn't mean I want you to change yours. I value self confidence and loyalty to self.

A reflection on the differences in the sexes-
Here’s an experiment to try (I have done it a few times)

Start a thread on the goal of debate of ideas.

Watch how two different views are expressed:

-That the goal is to change the mind of the other and get them to accept or agree with your idea (with the end result being a winner and a loser)

-That the goal is to give each adversary an opportunity to develop their ideas more in depth through opposition- to have help spotting their incongruities, flaws in logic, and so forth, and work on mending those, strengthening their position. (the “agree to disagree” view, in which mutual benefit is the goal)

Count how many males and females there are in each category.

I have found that males dominate the first category, females the second.
Male brains tend more towards hierarchy, dominant-submissive roles, and influencing the ideas of others. There is less concern for the different states of emotion that result of the interaction – if one feels weakened emotionally, it doesn’t matter, as long as we reach an equal state of thought.

Females tend more towards the reaching equal emotional states, the equality of thought on the topic being of less importance. We can disagree, have a different idea, as long as we both feel the same way emotionally at the end.

I will be the first to acknowledge being of the second type- I don’t care that others agree or disagree with my idea, or whether they adopt it, but I am most comfortable when we each end on a note of feeling good about ourselves and our place in the world.

Women most often try to get others to feel the same as they do, like water searching it’s own level. That could be low or high. Women with high self confidence seek to provoke the same in others, women with low self confidence seek to provoke the same in others.

I plead “guilty” (for those who like that paradigm of blame or fault) to intents of trying to manipulate others to be as self confident as I feel. In saying, yes, we impact others emotionally! We manipulate how people feel! And that is NOT BAD! Manipulate is not a dirty word! I hope to rise the self incriminating belief system out of it’s negative impact on the female psyche.

Manipulating thoughts and ideas of others is not bad either, hierarchy, competition, of the “male” sort is not bad either! (and I defend that in other moments and places). It has it’s own beneficial action and value.

But that is not the topic of this particular thread.

a reply to: InTheLight
but it's the way that the workplaces are run with the backstabbing and lies and favoritism that allows the psychopaths and sociopaths to rise to the top! And I might be wrong but I don't believe that either of those conditions care about the gender when they pick out their victims!


I have a hard time actually acknowledging that certain traits are "male" while those others over there are "female"
I just don't see things this way. There are people and they all act differently and well those traits just don't hold up in too many cases.
It was either Elizabeth Stanton or Susan Anthony that outlined in a speech she gave how these perceived differences can sometimes lead to some really outrageous conclusions by society... She was using slavery in an explanation as to why men should not be the sole decision makers when it comes to issues surrounding the rights of other groups. The slave were different, they were brought in from a totally different area of the world and had different color skin. And well it seems that many in the southern (and probably northern states) seemed to use those differences as a kind of justification for enslaving them and placing chains on them, They were different from us and they didn't feel the same way we do and in reality they didn't mind being enslaved or chained! The perceived differences seem to lead to assumptions that are then used to dictate how the entire group with those differences are treated.
Women are a tad bit different from men but I don't believe that they are so different that they won't mind if they are confined to set roles and limitations any less than any man would!
On the other board that I posted at they seemed to be stereotyping men as being fixated on computer games all day while women were fixated on stupid tv drama queens and making the assumption that this is the way most of us are and well this is why we are acting the way we are! I could tell you what I know about the stupid tv drama queen in one very short sentence- she was recently divorced and she invited herself into one of the white house parties or dinners or something like that
I know I am not that odd that I stand alone! They are making assumptions that maybe pertain to at the most 50% of the population and is probably less than that. I am more interested in the why people do the things they do and so my first reaction when I read stuff like that is what about those who don't do this?? Why are they acting in like manner?
If a person is being a bitch there is probably another reason for it outside of that she is a women - which doesn't provide an answer as to why a man would be a bitch whatsoever! And nothing will be solved unless that why is discovered
The sterotypes are just being used as scapegoats because the majority of the population doesn't really want to know the real reason-
the we have managed to devise a system that exalts the mentally ill into the positions of power and they have managed to make us all miserable!

a reply to: Bluesma

These two statements are incongruent.

Applying this here, and with many women, I suspect, it is not because they always have ill intent, but because they have been conditioned to believe that manipulation of this sort is evil under all circumstances, so even if doing it with good intent, they do it covertly. This is what encourages the belief that it is evil (by both sexes) , and it becomes a vicious circle.

:-)

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate

I love language. I love what we can do with it - I'm always amazed by what we cant do with it

1 - it doesn't have to be done in secret- there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

Out of everything you've been saying (as it all relates to women especially) this is the part that interests me the most

I'm not going to be on as much as I would like today...and you and I are both kinda chatty (long winded) at the keyboard

Honestly - I could sit here and easily babble on for a good 5 pages - but who on earth is going to read all that?

Besides you I mean :-)

I want to give you a real reply - so it'll have to wait

Have a lovely Christmas Eve Bluesma, and an extra Merry Christmas

I can't give these posts the attention they deserve right now- besides having worked until 9 pm, I had my whole family waiting for me for a christmas dinner (and my birthday) celebrations- so I can't rightly eclipse to the computer (as much as I love you people.. .

I would like to point out, though, that there ARE differences in the male and female brain, and how we process information and stimulus! It is not unreasonable to suggest differences!

There are so much in depth research to refer to, I just grabbed the first sort of simplified summary of what they have found, which could serve as a take off point if anyone wanted to.
It might be slightly off subject and we'll see how the mods feel about that- I kinda of like when we go in different directions together, to explore other branches of the subject if we all feel moved to do so...

www.webmd.com...

Merry Christmas all! I hope you have a wonderful holiday!

Oh yeah, that's not politically correct for americans is it? Well, basically- happy thawts, to you and yours, whatever you celebrate (or not).