Religion / Freemasonry / Witchcraft - Side by Side Comparison - Thieves and Saints

a reply to: AlephBet

Umm why are you mixing some indo-european words in there with some semetic? Just curious, because language does NOT work that way.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: AlephBet

Umm why are you mixing some indo-european words in there with some semetic? Just curious, because language does NOT work that way.

That's an empty statement unless you outline what you are saying with context. Semitic is the proper spelling.

a reply to: AlephBet


It’s not empty in the slightest. You are using words from a member of the Indo-European language family (English in this case) and comparing them to a word from a Semitic language (Hebrew). The consonants AMN may indeed have a deeper meaning in Hebrew. I don’t know, I’m not a speaker of a Semitic tongue, or a member of an Abrahamic faith.

You are thus comparing words from different language families, without proving the linkage between the two. These languages would have separated many thousands of years back, and the language(s) they separated from are most likely dead, or mutated beyond recognition.

This to pick a word such as “dAMNation” because there is a consonant pattern is dubious to say the least. Damnation is via the following path:
etymology of Damnation


Thus to use those words (which are all Indo-European) to try and prove a thesis about something in Semitic, is a non sequiter. As I said, languate does not work that way.


Also spell flaming is a sign of inability to debate.

I am also going to point out your comments in the OP over "Witchcraft" are rather inaccurate, and I'd love to know where you get some of those ideas from, even British Traditional Witchcraft does not behave in the manner you have said that "Witchcraft does", so I'm rather confused as to why you say this is evidence for something or other.

a reply to: AlephBet
You gotta love revisionism and redefinition.

Well the list is identical. It must be true

originally posted by: AlephBet
Perhaps you missed the answer twice.

It was a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer.

Answer the question.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: AlephBet
Perhaps you missed the answer twice.

It was a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer.

Answer the question.

I gave you a simple answer.

Job 33

28 The messenger has freed my soul from going into the pit,
and my life will see the light.’
29 Truly, El does all this two or three times with people
30 to turn their souls away from the pit
and to enlighten them with the light of life.

a reply to: Noinden

Check the Latin and Greek for the West and Hebrew AMN for the East. For instance, Amnesia is in Latin is the very same word for Amnesty. SIA in Latin is a suffix meaning a condition. Do a Latin word search for each word I used and you will find that I have named them correctly. AMN is Amen, derived from Hebrew. We use the vowel and spell it Amen. It is a Hebrew word meaning True. In Latin/Greek, Amn is Lamb. In the Bible, Hebrew is East and has 22 letters. In Greek, the New Testament has 24 letters. Together, 46. When 46 chromosomes complete the body, we have a mind that is East and West. We have two hands, both chiral pairs. No mistake in this. Language is same tree of life as DNA is to the shadow of Word.

All things derive from these roots of letters. Father in Hebrew is Aleph Bet. He writes the Word.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

Mother is Aleph Mem. Aleph means Strong and Mem means water. She is the Cup receiving the seed as a womb. The Greek then outlines the Lamb in the womb. Bet Nun is Son. Bet means House and Nun means Seed. The House of Seed continues the house. Aleph Bet is Father, or Strong House holding the letters making the word. Word is comprised of seed, or what bread is. The bread of life comes from the letters producing the Word.

Hidden in Hebrew

In English, we say Ear. An Ear is a seed, like and ear of corn. It must open in soil. The ear is the entrance to your heart. If I add a Hebrew letter Hey to Ear, I get Hear. Hey means behold.



I choose Phoenician pictographs to convey the meaning of the Hebrew because it is the Father (Aleph Bet / Abba) language to Hebrew.

Add a Tav to Hear and you have what receives the seed. HearT. This is the West (Abstract).



In case you think I am merely using some perceived parlor trick, consider where you plant the seeds East (Concrete).

Move the Hey (where you behold) to the end of Heart. eartH. The literal soil where you behold.

Go back and do a search for the words I used in Latin and Greek. Tell me what you find. If you are trying to show my use of language as flawed, you will find that I am 101% right. Simply search the clues that I just left for you. It's a mystery very few people on Earth know.

originally posted by: AlephBet
I gave you a simple answer.

I am not looking for Bible quotes and I would expect nothing less than such typical intellectual dishonesty from someone who refuses to answer a yes or no question.

Father... Son... Holy Spirit...
Master... Apprentice... Craft...

Likely it is that there is no relation save coincidence.
But... truly... they mean well!

Grand Pontiffs always do...

I Am Pinocchio...
Of Acacia Wood Was I Fashioned...
With Sh!ttim For My Thoughts...
Adorned In Fine Gold...
BUT! But I Am Not The Ark Of The Covenant! Hmph!

Although I Did Break A Rock With A Stick Once...

a reply to: AlephBet

Neighbor I am afraid you are still missing the point. While there may be some borrowed words in ancient Greek, and Latin from Hebrew, there were also a great many borrowed words the Hebrews took from Greek, and Latin. Indeed if you want to jump to modern languages English has a few words from Hebrew and I am not seeing the ones you are implying are using the AMN consonant pattern which you claim to be important to this argument.

Lets do a little walk down the “genetics” of language. English is ostensibly a Germanic language. Germanic languages are all Indo-European. Similarly Middle English was heavily influenced by French, an Italic language (one of the “Romance languages”) also an Indo-European Language. We however speak modern English. Modern English is again an Indo-European Language.



Hebrew is a west Semitic member of the Afro-asiatic Language family. They are not Indo-European languages, and mixing between them are very minimal. Beyond this they would have separated from various (extinct) protolanguages they may have shared many many thousands of years back.

That is the ground work. The simple version of those two paragraphs is “they are unrelated languages”

Now inside language families you can have such variances that it these languages which are “genetically” related seem foreign to one another, you can also have some strange word etymologies. I am going to pick on one here to illustrate.

The reconstructed Proto Indo-European (PIE) word *ghosti (the * implies it is reconstructed, and all protolanguages are indeed reconstrucrted) has several modern English words which trace back to it.
These include:
Guest
Host
And
Ghost.

Guest and Host may seem obvious, as they have an implied relationship to one another, and indeed *ghosti has a deeper meaning associated with these interrelated words, but lets look at ghost. Ghost did not use to mean “spirit” or similar. It meant “stranger”. Strangers were to be shown hospitality, and were expected to be good guests. Thus when two groups of Indo-European herders passed each other, and they had not ever met. One would host the other (and the other would guest). They stopped being strangers after that point; they were no longer “ghosts”. Thus as you can see, words change meaning. Another example would be the word nice. It used to mean “strange” and was not a compliment if you were called it.

Thus, when you embark on these little attempts to force the square Semitc concept into the round Indo-European framework, you really are achieving nothing but missing the point. The Greek and Latin peoples of the time you are talking about were firmly paleopagan. They were very nationalistic (or city stateistic for the Greeks), and the Isralites did not impress them much. Only the Bible (which is known to be a very dubious source of actual history) seems to make out Israel as an important player in the middle east. It was not.

Thus for better or worse the consonants in Hebrew which equate to AMN made very little if any impact on the Indo-European languages which we speak today.

Now as you’ve dodged this next point, I’m going to directly address your misrepresentation of modern esoteric systems of worship.

First no I am not unbiased, I am a Neopagan Druid, and Celtic Reconstructionist. I belong to the Largest Druid Order founded in the US, which is the second largest order in the world.

Now to your points:
Witchcraft and Other Esoteric Belief Systems such as Wicca

1) 1) Must be recommended for membership by other members.
Untrue. It will depend on the lineage of Witchcraft/Wicca, and many other groups are open to all. Mine included.

2) Screening for Membership
Also Untrue and this is a redundant point given your point (1). Many groups as I said are open to all. What will happen is if someone turns out to be toxic, they will be asked to leave, then if they refuse, removed. This is not that common as many modern pagans are very conflict averse, and thus allow unhealthy individuals to remain.

3) Hoodwinked (Blindfolded) / Spear to Chest
Uhhh no. Where the hell did you get this?

4) Bound by Rope to Magic Circle
Again no. Where did you get this?

Both of these points might have been sensationally depicted by either the tabloid media, television, or some of the more “fame focused” people of the 1950s and 1960s, but I’ve never come across either in my 30 plus years in paganism. Thus I call BS.
5) Keeling to High Priest

Well that would depend on the Pagan path involved. In my Druid order, we have one dogma officially (several others in reality but meh) and that is the Arch Druid (and Clergy) are fallible. We do not kneel. Similarly most Wiccans don’t. Its dependent on the group, not the norm.
6) Blood Oath for revealing hidden secrets
Most pagans are very adverse to blood. Thus no. No it does not happen. There are exceptions but those blood oaths are to the gods, and between the individuals and the deities, not the Covens, Groves, and Circles and the individuals.

7)End Ritual with, "So Mote it Be."
Again group dependent. Where are you getting this? You also missed that the groups that end that way have a “challenge” to enter ritual circle, “how do you enter” which should be replied with “in perfect love and perfect trust”. I don’t do either of these nor does my group, but many do. SO?
8) Hidden Knowledge at the Heart of Ritual

Any ritual Abrahamic, or not, has hidden meaning. You have a point?

9) Secret Society with membership rolls are secret
Yeah not so much. In the beginning Gardner, Sanders etc encouraged this as the media were a bunch of idiots who liked to sensationalize it all, and people just did not openly advertise it. Similarly Christians did this in the early years, communists during the McCarthy era, and homosexuals for years. When people are made scape goats they hide. However you could find my name on my orders website under the membership role. This is secret how? I’m not going to advertise it, I don’t like being Doxed by trolls
10) Ceremonial initiations to pass from one degree to another, including sworn oaths

So? I had a ritual when I finished my PhD, and special clothing for it too. Its part of life.

11) Ceremonial purging and purification of ritual space before commencing any ritual work

Not always true.

12) Secret Passwords and Hand Signs

DAFQ??? Where did you get that?

13) Both work from correspondences between spiritual and physical world

None of which are unique to all paganism.

Thus I have to ask, what makes you think you are qualified to speak to Paganism/Witchcraft/Esoteric paths?

If you are wondering how the language and pagan thing fit together? Its really very simple, words have power, and I follow an Indo-European path, the term *ghosti is important in that path.