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Randomness does not exist at the quantum level.
page: 2share:
a reply to: GetHyped
Incoherent rant? You must be jealous, I just expressed eternal truths.
You said we dont know if the universe is finite or not, I just proved it is. If the universe is (the which exists, at least), then yes, the universe is finite, In quantity, infinite in time, as in, stuff will exist eternally. The non stuff space which surrounds the totality of stuff that exists, that is reality, may be 'infinite' but infinite spatial dimension of pure nothing.
The reason I quipped about mind and consciousness is because a conscious observer so far is the only thing we are aware of that can come closest to being truly random. Most likely due to it (mind) being a complex system of many parts, (which are nearly continuously functioning in close proximity at very high speeds) and which use at least and in part to function, a symbolic language programming which allows it to compute and simulate 'events and objects which dont exist in the reality beyond it', the nature of random is the nature of non causality, and the ability to simulate breaking the laws of physics in ones head utilizes causality and physics, but the simulation is a real aspect of reality that can have real outcomes and effects on reality, though is pseudoly breaking the laws of physics (think cartoons).
Incoherent rant? You must be jealous, I just expressed eternal truths.
You said we dont know if the universe is finite or not, I just proved it is. If the universe is (the which exists, at least), then yes, the universe is finite, In quantity, infinite in time, as in, stuff will exist eternally. The non stuff space which surrounds the totality of stuff that exists, that is reality, may be 'infinite' but infinite spatial dimension of pure nothing.
The reason I quipped about mind and consciousness is because a conscious observer so far is the only thing we are aware of that can come closest to being truly random. Most likely due to it (mind) being a complex system of many parts, (which are nearly continuously functioning in close proximity at very high speeds) and which use at least and in part to function, a symbolic language programming which allows it to compute and simulate 'events and objects which dont exist in the reality beyond it', the nature of random is the nature of non causality, and the ability to simulate breaking the laws of physics in ones head utilizes causality and physics, but the simulation is a real aspect of reality that can have real outcomes and effects on reality, though is pseudoly breaking the laws of physics (think cartoons).
edit on 9-12-2014 by ImaFungi because: (no reason
given)
a reply to: ImaFungi
Pretty close to the same thing i said. I just worded it differently to add greater signifigance to it all.
All energy has the potencial of becoming organized.
There is no such thing as Random. Even if particles jump all over the place, it is because of the linear path of the particle. Moving so fast, that it may bump into black energy particles within the Interior. As black energy is a particle many times smaller than an atom. Since atoms use electromagnetic energy to generate a holograme of the energy held within or rather a fraction of it as it spews out in Entropy.
Entropy is any action, it is in the second laws of therodynamics and very much does exist.
So everything currently out there, not sure if you worded it weirdly or not but the things that are here in the universe WILL exist forever, and as you said TRANSFORM.
That is the reality of the universe, the ultimate truth is Transformation. Specifically signifigance transformation.
The particles that generate the energy to create the surface area for an atom, Which generates the *hologram* are themselves solid objects made up of even tinier fragments bonded together and orbiting very much like an atom these tiny fragments lets call them shards are the smallest fragments in the universe These fragments are what form sub-atomic particles.
They have been named Axioms tho the way they operate or how they even appear is not entirely known as the scale is to small for us right now.
Lets assume these Axioms are the smallest thing in the universe. Eventually the energy these fragments called axioms from a single electron, neutron, protons runs out. This energy becomes depleted. Enstein didn't really see it this way. He say Mass is energy, and energy is mass. Only energy is in a state of motion, Where as mass is a state of potencial energy.
He gave particles volt potencial, assuming off of E=Mc 2 which is energy = mass cube squared. Meaning energy disperses by cubic feet squared meaning that it increases in surface area, depending on the energy available.
He is right in this regard that that Energy does = Mass x cubic squared. However mass does not cease to exist completely. In order for Energy to even Exist it needs to come from a Source. Energy comes from potencial. And since entropy exists. Then the universe will either A) Constantly replenish decaying matter or B) this is the first or second universe to ever exist, Nothing really is lack of any particle of any degree. And all mass will eventually bleep it self out of existance. No big bang will follow as all matter has been spent. There is no possibility of such a Universe continuing from zero energy which is *nothing*.
However with the evidence of black holes it is unlikely this proces could ever exist.
Also the laws of energy and therodynamics demand a compensating factor to destruction.
A universe cannot exist, and all the galaxies we see with black holes also could not exist at varrying ages around us if we are of course fresh.
So it is more likely that black holes condense the invisible spent axions and decaying sub-atomic particles and atoms around us. This is done because everything around a black hole is constanting falling in one direction. Towards it. Since black holes are spewing condensed matter it causes a nullyfying effect where incoming decaying particles collide with newly condensed particles adding to the already present electromagnetic activity. Which helps create order and orientation. Nothing is random because black energy is always moving. If we could dectect is, we could predict the movement of particles. Which would make them seem a lot less random.
At that point tho the real particle physics beings.
But where does energy come from?
Well Earthquakes are supposedly caused by tectonic pressures pushing against each other forcing mountain to appear.
The same *bound and suspension* is what generates energy for compressed particles. Since they are only particle where the *shards* fragments of axioms ect are merged together. Because under the pressures of a black hole, all matter is shattered and compressed together regardless of magnetic orientation. This force is so poweful. The newly combining particles have no time or energy to overcome the force and cant go with natural counterparts. Once sealed, these particles touching each other generates massive ammounts of energy from being prevented to *vibrate*. The lack of vibration allows this mounting pressure to build. This is why energy is so explosive, when dealing with objects that are orbitting so fast and so tiny that they are only generating an image. But yet, can produce this much energy. The explosive nature of matter and the fact this energy last for so long has to give a process that would technically last much longer than matter expressing energy as physical mass. So because of this, There would be a higher ration of *nothing* Pushing against *something* allowing the orientation and seperation of particles which allows orbits. This non vibrating tiny mass acts as a type of lubercant and a type of *filler* for a particle to function. With lack of electromagnetic activity it does not disturbe the linar path of particles but rather generates the space between them by presently being there. That ratio of black matter and energy to physical matter they say is 80% when the ratio is actually much higher.
I would say it is at 99.99999999999999999999999..... infinity percent black matter and energy. Well the remaining 0.000000000000000000000 infinity +o.1.
SInce so much of it exists, and it takes so long for energy to be replenished. This ratio fits, As any of the 99.9999999999....% black energy could of been hanging around for the time nessisary to rexpand into fully charged particles or rather *super charged* particles containing massive ammounts of energy they intended on keeping for as long as possible as they merge and become atoms/ molecules ect.
Tho this process is limited by time, Therefore the 0.00000000000000001 of actual physical matter that takes up space ( Not including their paths of orbit which generates the image of the object appearing much bigger than it seems i am speaking about the actual physical size of said object in comparison to the space which is filled by black energy. Which acts a buffer and regulator of mass movement. Since black energy (The less condensed form of black matter which is only present in black holes since black energy is being massively produced there in large quantities)
When mass moves to fast, physical particles can create a type of wall just from being there and being pushed out of the way so fast. Same as black energy which does physically get pushed by the movement and contact of particles. The faster you move the more surface area and force is generated. Which limits the speed of light.
Technically, Existance itself in totality. Most of it is sleeping.
We are like the consious human brain. We are the 10% acting on the 90% that exists, The ratio is actually more extreme but you get the point. 99.999999...% of that stuff out there is just waiting to be fully charged and ready for expansion. But since so much of it is in this state.
It means that physical mass is extremely limitted. Hense the immense ammount of *Space*. To compensate for matters short life span, it has to be this way. And it just does it like this because
Pretty close to the same thing i said. I just worded it differently to add greater signifigance to it all.
All energy has the potencial of becoming organized.
There is no such thing as Random. Even if particles jump all over the place, it is because of the linear path of the particle. Moving so fast, that it may bump into black energy particles within the Interior. As black energy is a particle many times smaller than an atom. Since atoms use electromagnetic energy to generate a holograme of the energy held within or rather a fraction of it as it spews out in Entropy.
Entropy is any action, it is in the second laws of therodynamics and very much does exist.
So everything currently out there, not sure if you worded it weirdly or not but the things that are here in the universe WILL exist forever, and as you said TRANSFORM.
That is the reality of the universe, the ultimate truth is Transformation. Specifically signifigance transformation.
The particles that generate the energy to create the surface area for an atom, Which generates the *hologram* are themselves solid objects made up of even tinier fragments bonded together and orbiting very much like an atom these tiny fragments lets call them shards are the smallest fragments in the universe These fragments are what form sub-atomic particles.
They have been named Axioms tho the way they operate or how they even appear is not entirely known as the scale is to small for us right now.
Lets assume these Axioms are the smallest thing in the universe. Eventually the energy these fragments called axioms from a single electron, neutron, protons runs out. This energy becomes depleted. Enstein didn't really see it this way. He say Mass is energy, and energy is mass. Only energy is in a state of motion, Where as mass is a state of potencial energy.
He gave particles volt potencial, assuming off of E=Mc 2 which is energy = mass cube squared. Meaning energy disperses by cubic feet squared meaning that it increases in surface area, depending on the energy available.
He is right in this regard that that Energy does = Mass x cubic squared. However mass does not cease to exist completely. In order for Energy to even Exist it needs to come from a Source. Energy comes from potencial. And since entropy exists. Then the universe will either A) Constantly replenish decaying matter or B) this is the first or second universe to ever exist, Nothing really is lack of any particle of any degree. And all mass will eventually bleep it self out of existance. No big bang will follow as all matter has been spent. There is no possibility of such a Universe continuing from zero energy which is *nothing*.
However with the evidence of black holes it is unlikely this proces could ever exist.
Also the laws of energy and therodynamics demand a compensating factor to destruction.
A universe cannot exist, and all the galaxies we see with black holes also could not exist at varrying ages around us if we are of course fresh.
So it is more likely that black holes condense the invisible spent axions and decaying sub-atomic particles and atoms around us. This is done because everything around a black hole is constanting falling in one direction. Towards it. Since black holes are spewing condensed matter it causes a nullyfying effect where incoming decaying particles collide with newly condensed particles adding to the already present electromagnetic activity. Which helps create order and orientation. Nothing is random because black energy is always moving. If we could dectect is, we could predict the movement of particles. Which would make them seem a lot less random.
At that point tho the real particle physics beings.
But where does energy come from?
Well Earthquakes are supposedly caused by tectonic pressures pushing against each other forcing mountain to appear.
The same *bound and suspension* is what generates energy for compressed particles. Since they are only particle where the *shards* fragments of axioms ect are merged together. Because under the pressures of a black hole, all matter is shattered and compressed together regardless of magnetic orientation. This force is so poweful. The newly combining particles have no time or energy to overcome the force and cant go with natural counterparts. Once sealed, these particles touching each other generates massive ammounts of energy from being prevented to *vibrate*. The lack of vibration allows this mounting pressure to build. This is why energy is so explosive, when dealing with objects that are orbitting so fast and so tiny that they are only generating an image. But yet, can produce this much energy. The explosive nature of matter and the fact this energy last for so long has to give a process that would technically last much longer than matter expressing energy as physical mass. So because of this, There would be a higher ration of *nothing* Pushing against *something* allowing the orientation and seperation of particles which allows orbits. This non vibrating tiny mass acts as a type of lubercant and a type of *filler* for a particle to function. With lack of electromagnetic activity it does not disturbe the linar path of particles but rather generates the space between them by presently being there. That ratio of black matter and energy to physical matter they say is 80% when the ratio is actually much higher.
I would say it is at 99.99999999999999999999999..... infinity percent black matter and energy. Well the remaining 0.000000000000000000000 infinity +o.1.
SInce so much of it exists, and it takes so long for energy to be replenished. This ratio fits, As any of the 99.9999999999....% black energy could of been hanging around for the time nessisary to rexpand into fully charged particles or rather *super charged* particles containing massive ammounts of energy they intended on keeping for as long as possible as they merge and become atoms/ molecules ect.
Tho this process is limited by time, Therefore the 0.00000000000000001 of actual physical matter that takes up space ( Not including their paths of orbit which generates the image of the object appearing much bigger than it seems i am speaking about the actual physical size of said object in comparison to the space which is filled by black energy. Which acts a buffer and regulator of mass movement. Since black energy (The less condensed form of black matter which is only present in black holes since black energy is being massively produced there in large quantities)
When mass moves to fast, physical particles can create a type of wall just from being there and being pushed out of the way so fast. Same as black energy which does physically get pushed by the movement and contact of particles. The faster you move the more surface area and force is generated. Which limits the speed of light.
Technically, Existance itself in totality. Most of it is sleeping.
We are like the consious human brain. We are the 10% acting on the 90% that exists, The ratio is actually more extreme but you get the point. 99.999999...% of that stuff out there is just waiting to be fully charged and ready for expansion. But since so much of it is in this state.
It means that physical mass is extremely limitted. Hense the immense ammount of *Space*. To compensate for matters short life span, it has to be this way. And it just does it like this because
edit on 9-12-2014 by AnuTyr because: (no reason given)
countering forces that all nulify to their ultimate conclusion.
Black holes exist because without them galaxies couldn't exist.
It all takes time, and since the ratio of existing matter is so small. Mass is limited, only by time tho. The potencial is infinity because of transformation. However it is like my first post.
The Universe is a tree that utilizes its Dead leaves for nutrients for new growth. Its growth cycle is very slow. But is in constant movement.
we can take from the tree, as long as we do not take more than it can grow. We would't become agents of disorder in the universe.
Black holes exist because without them galaxies couldn't exist.
It all takes time, and since the ratio of existing matter is so small. Mass is limited, only by time tho. The potencial is infinity because of transformation. However it is like my first post.
The Universe is a tree that utilizes its Dead leaves for nutrients for new growth. Its growth cycle is very slow. But is in constant movement.
we can take from the tree, as long as we do not take more than it can grow. We would't become agents of disorder in the universe.
edit on
9-12-2014 by AnuTyr because: typos lol
From my understanding determinism vs randomness is a hard problem.
Recent research seems to lead to the conclusion, that "either our world is fully deterministic or there exist in nature events that are fully random": arxiv.org...
Recent research seems to lead to the conclusion, that "either our world is fully deterministic or there exist in nature events that are fully random": arxiv.org...
Universe is infinate in my opinion.
Infinatly expanding even to this day from the size of a tiny particle to the infinatly large universe we see today.
Theres also the multiverse or parallel universes.
Also other dimentions dark energy dark matter.
The list goes on and on, how would account for dark energy and dark matter everywhere including ourselves, meaning the infinate expansion that is counted as zero in physics.
Also in the quantum world there is no certainty.
Lets not forget how you account for micro black holes within particles found by CERN.
The only real limits to anything in the universe is our perception of it double slit expiriment tells us this.
Also this thread needs some kind of factual evidence to even be considered science.
Infinatly expanding even to this day from the size of a tiny particle to the infinatly large universe we see today.
Theres also the multiverse or parallel universes.
Also other dimentions dark energy dark matter.
The list goes on and on, how would account for dark energy and dark matter everywhere including ourselves, meaning the infinate expansion that is counted as zero in physics.
Also in the quantum world there is no certainty.
Lets not forget how you account for micro black holes within particles found by CERN.
The only real limits to anything in the universe is our perception of it double slit expiriment tells us this.
Also this thread needs some kind of factual evidence to even be considered science.
o.k.
This is actually my area of research and I can confirm that the OP has it dead wrong.
I think it was quite early on in my childhood that I first understood the concept of infinity... the idea that no matter how high I counted, I could always add one to it. perhaps it was this defining moment that set me on the path towards the sciences.
I can address the OP's post in two parts...
Firstly we do not currently know if the universe is finite or not, My best guesstimate is that it is not finite, and that what we perceive to be reality is nothing more than an emergent property of a deeper reality.
Secondly the very nature of quantum mechanics is based upon the fact that space-time at the Planck Scale is in fact a sea of randomness, if you like pure abstract chaos. The order that we see at our level of reality is created by the fact that true chaos creates order.
I'm sure you are familiar with the thought experiment whereby a monkey and a type writer with infinite time would eventually type the entire works of Shakespeare?
Although this thought experiment may present some problems such as basic entropy... You see what happens is a bounce... Chaos creates order then order returns to chaos.
A simple way to know that chaos is a fundamental to our universe is plants... which exhibit fractal growth patterns... which I might add conforms to the golden ratio.... which in turn is an emergent property of chaos itself... a kind of mathematical resonance.
I hope this makes sense, If not please ask... I could discuss this subject forever... pun intended...
Korg.
This is actually my area of research and I can confirm that the OP has it dead wrong.
I think it was quite early on in my childhood that I first understood the concept of infinity... the idea that no matter how high I counted, I could always add one to it. perhaps it was this defining moment that set me on the path towards the sciences.
I can address the OP's post in two parts...
Firstly we do not currently know if the universe is finite or not, My best guesstimate is that it is not finite, and that what we perceive to be reality is nothing more than an emergent property of a deeper reality.
Secondly the very nature of quantum mechanics is based upon the fact that space-time at the Planck Scale is in fact a sea of randomness, if you like pure abstract chaos. The order that we see at our level of reality is created by the fact that true chaos creates order.
I'm sure you are familiar with the thought experiment whereby a monkey and a type writer with infinite time would eventually type the entire works of Shakespeare?
Although this thought experiment may present some problems such as basic entropy... You see what happens is a bounce... Chaos creates order then order returns to chaos.
A simple way to know that chaos is a fundamental to our universe is plants... which exhibit fractal growth patterns... which I might add conforms to the golden ratio.... which in turn is an emergent property of chaos itself... a kind of mathematical resonance.
I hope this makes sense, If not please ask... I could discuss this subject forever... pun intended...
Korg.
edit on 10-12-2014 by Korg Trinity because: (no reason given)
a reply to: LittleByLittle
plus
is interesting and I could agree 100% because I believe I have verified this with my own experiences on a few occasions not with experimentation that could be classed as scientific however could be classed as spiritual and something that involves much belief.
I would say even external of their/our bodies but wont because then I would have explain myself which is something I cannot or will not do due to the personal nature of things that convinced me.
Basically I'm one of the nuts that sides with a matrix like reality, I mean the truth of reality, what and who we are is somewhat of a deception to test our awareness or consciousness, Our purpose as a whole is to experience what diversity and free will brings and learn from it to know who,why and what we are is what I lean too in my beliefs.
Namaste, I love the peace that saying bring to my mind.
Namaste
Test it and verify it yourself with experiments.
plus
Sometimes it is possible for people to intent->manifest changes in the probability field (with only their bodies).
is interesting and I could agree 100% because I believe I have verified this with my own experiences on a few occasions not with experimentation that could be classed as scientific however could be classed as spiritual and something that involves much belief.
I would say even external of their/our bodies but wont because then I would have explain myself which is something I cannot or will not do due to the personal nature of things that convinced me.
Basically I'm one of the nuts that sides with a matrix like reality, I mean the truth of reality, what and who we are is somewhat of a deception to test our awareness or consciousness, Our purpose as a whole is to experience what diversity and free will brings and learn from it to know who,why and what we are is what I lean too in my beliefs.
Namaste, I love the peace that saying bring to my mind.
Namaste
originally posted by: GetHyped
originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: GetHyped
Incoherent rant? You must be jealous, I just expressed eternal truths.
No, I think you're deluded and detached from reality. It's quite sad, really.
Hey so am I and get by just fine just like all the deluded fools that believe in something they cannot prove.
Have some faith in something, its a risk for those that live very material lives but can be very rewarding for the mind or not in many cases, its your choice, all of your actions are your choice, you have a greater power than you might believe.
But hey I am a deluded fool detached from many things one being a reality that you might believe in and that makes me happy and sad at the same time fr some reason.
originally posted by: InhaleExhale
originally posted by: GetHyped
originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: GetHyped
Incoherent rant? You must be jealous, I just expressed eternal truths.
No, I think you're deluded and detached from reality. It's quite sad, really.
Hey so am I and get by just fine just like all the deluded fools that believe in something they cannot prove.
Have some faith in something, its a risk for those that live very material lives but can be very rewarding for the mind or not in many cases, its your choice, all of your actions are your choice, you have a greater power than you might believe.
But hey I am a deluded fool detached from many things one being a reality that you might believe in and that makes me happy and sad at the same time fr some reason.
While I too believe in spiritual quantum reality, I love delving into the scientific quantum reality realm too. From reading Einstein's theories and others, and a little extra research into basic quantum physics, I believe the interractions of all matter is reactionary, which can be both random and fixed. But, just like all of you, that is just my theory for now.
edit on 10-12-2014 by InTheLight because: (no reason given)
a reply to: InhaleExhale
Again, what does any of this have to do with my original post on the 1st page?
Again, what does any of this have to do with my original post on the 1st page?
Is this along the lines of what you are theorizing can be achieved mathematically using a computer?
www.theinfinitycomputer.com...
www.theinfinitycomputer.com...
originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: InhaleExhale
Again, what does any of this have to do with my original post on the 1st page?
Just about as much as you calling others deluded for their opinions and beliefs,
Its a free to speak your mind web site and if you find issues with whats said in threads, hit the alert and let he Mods deal with the issues you have.
However the only issues the Mods can help you with are off topic and rudeness posted towards another,
You have to deal with your other issues once you realize what they are.
Edit: Your original post?
It doesn't at all as I quoted what I was replying too.
You call others deluded?
I couldn't care less for your original post now even though I agree with some points you brought up in it.
edit on 10-12-2014 by InhaleExhale
because: (no reason given)
edit on 10-12-2014 by InhaleExhale because: not the OP, got confused when they said original post, deleted
some words that implied this thread was authored by GetHyped
a reply to: Adaluncatif
Ok, do you mean that since matter and space are finite no true randomness can exist?
Ok, do you mean that since matter and space are finite no true randomness can exist?
originally posted by: GetHyped
originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: GetHyped
Incoherent rant? You must be jealous, I just expressed eternal truths.
No, I think you're deluded and detached from reality. It's quite sad, really.
Attacking a person, ad hominem, is one of the weakest and lamest things an intellectual could waste his energy on. I originally wrote two replies to you, one justifying the second after your original ad hominem.
I proved your first condition, false, that we dont know the universe is finite. I state; the quantity of reality is finite. Attempt to prove that statement wrong, and I will prove your statements wrong guaranteed.
Than, I mentioned my reasoning for why I reason the mind is one of the closest systems we know of that is capable of approaching the 'abstract concept' of 'randomness'. I implore you to attempt to prove my reasoning wrong there. Good luck buddy, may the truth be with you.
edit on
10-12-2014 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: InhaleExhale
More incoherent ranting. I think you'll love this forum: www.reddit.com...
Thanks for for your opinion, however I am not interested if you are 14.
at that age I could read, why are you having trouble? you seem sort of intelligent however cannot read whats quoted and what is being replied to,
What gives, if its incoherent why reply, are just as delusional as the people you say are or worse?
Maybe get a little less hyped at what you read instead of making a fool of yourself like us incoherent delusional s do in your opinion.
There are many deep and solid reasons for why the randomness in QM is true randomness. There are no hidden variables. Deal with it folks.
originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
There are many deep and solid reasons for why the randomness in QM is true randomness. There are no hidden variables. Deal with it folks.
Please state the definition of randomness you are using to formulate your statement.
Wow I wonder what information led OP to even start this thread in the science thread.
Quantum physics and mechanics tells us there is no certainty as scale goes down.
How can this even be considered science?
This thread is just opinion based there is zero factual peer reviewed evidence to back what OP is saying.
Quantum physics and mechanics tells us there is no certainty as scale goes down.
How can this even be considered science?
This thread is just opinion based there is zero factual peer reviewed evidence to back what OP is saying.
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