My View OnThe Brain/Mind/Counsiousness As A Quantum Computer

Here is some information on microtubules and how energy is spread and used across microtubules much similar to nanotubes I find this to be facinating:

Delocalised electromagnetic oscillations

This is seen as making microtubules into potential noise alleviators. The tubulins are viewed as reaching a particular energy level, beyond which further energy absorption from outside the microtubule is not allowed. The vibrational peaks of tubulin survive in the entire microtubule. Vibrations surviving for picoseconds or even nanoseconds are distributed over the entire length of the microtubule. Relaxation times for tubulins and microtubules over picoseconds and nanosecond timescales are identical. In studies where water is removed from the microtubule core, the special properties of the microtubule disappear, suggesting that the water channel is involved in the conductivity and force modulation of the microtubule. The water channel and the tubulin protein are between them seen as controlling the properties of the microtubule. It is thought that it is only possible for the water molecules and the tubulin to be coupled by delocalised electromagnetic oscillations.

quantum-mind.co.uk...

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Another blog?

I see some facts about photosynthesis. And a random leap to a connection with neurological activity.



Do you know the theory behind quantum computing?

By all means do add some of your own research I am interested in knowledge when shared in a friendly manner, do you have any to share?

No. I don't do metaphysics.

Yes I do, I suggest you wikipedia it if you need more information on it, did you even read the article? If you did you would know they are talking about how they are finding similarities in neurons. I suggest you study on the brain before asking me to tell you the way it is, I dont have all the answers for you, but I am a researcher.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
By all means do add some of your own research I am interested in knowledge when shared in a friendly manner, do you have any to share?

Here is a paper by Max Tegmark, a guy who actually knows something about quantum computing, explaining why he thinks the claims of the brain as a quantum computer are scientifically implausible:

space.mit.edu...

Based on a calculation of neural decoherence rates, we ar-
gue that that the degrees of freedom of the human brain that
relate to cognitive processes should be thought of as a classical
rather than quantum system, i.e., that there is nothing funda-
mentally wrong with the current classical approach to neural
network simulations. We find that the decoherence timescales
(∼ 10^−13 to 10^−20 seconds) are typically much shorter than
the relevant dynamical timescales (∼ 10^−3 to 10^−1 seconds),
both for regular neuron firing and for kink-like polarization
excitations in microtubules. This conclusion disagrees with
suggestions by Penrose and others that the brain acts as a
quantum computer, and that quantum coherence is related
to consciousness in a fundamental way.

Emphasis mine.

Your source didn't cite any real science about plant studies, but given the warm-blooded temperature and other characteristics of the human brain, we have no reason to conclude that processes in plants necessarily occur in the brain. For example, plants have photosynthesis. I've never seen any evidence of this in the human brain.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord
Interesting. Too bad there is no peer review process involved. Just pay the $3,300 fee and viola! You're published.

Journals published by Elsevier, Wolters Kluwer, and Sage all accepted my bogus paper.

www.sciencemag.org...

Oh. Can you explain what it has to do with a "quantum mind?"

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

If you did you would know they are talking about how they are finding similarities in neurons.

Who are finding similarities? The blogger?

Evolution has a tendency to retain features, so there is no reason to believe that it would not have retained the ability to utilise quantum coherence in animal cells, and thus in neurons.

quantum-mind.co.uk...

No reason. Ok. If he says so, let's just assume it's the case and run with it.

Remember...science? Evidence?

but I am a researcher.

Reading blogs does not qualify as research.

Here is Michio Kaku talking about the brain and counsiousness for a few minutes video

Michio Kaku (2014) "Why Study The Brain?"
www.youtube.com...

Researches consciousness, anesthesia and microtubules, i.e. protein structures which organize living cells including brain neurons.

Proposed in the early 1980's that microtubules functioned as molecular computers. His 1987 book Ultimate Computing suggested downloading consciousness into microtubule arrays. Teamed with British physicist Sir Roger Penrose in the mid-1990s to develop the controversial Orch OR theory in which consciousness derives from quantum computations in microtubules inside brain neurons, quantum computations connected to the fine- scale structure of spacetime geometry.
Dr. Stuart Hameroff, M.D. — Microtubules & quantum consciousness .
www.youtube.com...

I just wasted 10 minutes of my life here. Not to worry it will reappear somewhere on the space-time continuum in the matrix. At least I read it somewhere.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord
I didn't hear Kaku say anything about the "quantum brain."

But now we're getting somewhere. Sort of. At least we've moved beyond a blog.

Nevertheless, Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have constructed a theory in which human consciouness is the result of quantum gravity effects in microtubules. But Max Tegmark, in a paper in Physical Review E, calculated that the timescale of neuron firing and exitations in microtubules is slower thant the decoherence time by a factor of at least 10,000,000,000. The reception of the paper is summed up by this statement in his support:"Physicist outside the fray, such as IBM's John Smolin, say that calculations confirm what they had suspected all along." We're not working with a brain that's near absolute zero. "It's reasonably unlikely that the brain developed quantum behaviour," he adds.

source

Found this tidbit of information on the nature of consciousness which I thought was well presented, I like what Dr. Stuart Hameroff has to say on the subject and believe we are just at the tip of the iceberg when it comes to understanding the workings of the human brain or any brain for that matter. Counsiousness itself is a very interesting field of study:

Conscious "free will" is problematic because brain mechanisms causing consciousness are unknown, measurable brain activity correlating with conscious perception apparently occurs too late for real-time conscious response, consciousness thus being considered "epiphenomenal illusion," and determinism, i.e., our actions and the world around us seem algorithmic and inevitable.


The Penrose-Hameroff theory of "orchestrated objective reduction (Orch OR)" identifies discrete conscious moments with quantum computations in microtubules inside brain neurons, 40/s in concert with gamma synchrony EEG. Microtubules organize neuronal interiors and regulate synapses.

In Orch OR, microtubule quantum computations occur in integration phases in dendrites and cell bodies of integrate-and-fire brain neurons connected and synchronized by gap junctions, allowing entanglement of microtubules among many neurons.

Quantum computations in entangled microtubules terminate by Penrose "objective reduction (OR)," a proposal for quantum state reduction and conscious moments linked to fundamental spacetime geometry.

Each OR reduction selects microtubule states which can trigger axonal firings, and control behavior. The quantum computations are "orchestrated" by synaptic inputs and memory (thus "Orch OR").

If correct, Orch OR can account for conscious causal agency, resolving problem 1.

Regarding problem 2, Orch OR can cause temporal non-locality, sending quantum information backward in classical time, enabling conscious control of behavior. Three lines of evidence for brain backward time effects are presented.

Regarding problem 3, Penrose OR (and Orch OR) invokes non-computable influences from information embedded in spacetime geometry, potentially avoiding algorithmic determinism. In summary, Orch OR can account for real-time conscious causal agency, avoiding the need for consciousness to be seen as epiphenomenal illusion. Orch OR can rescue conscious free will.
www.quantumconsciousness.org...

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Found this tidbit of information on the nature of consciousness which I thought was well presented,

And I thought you had left that blog behind.
Dang.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Found this tidbit of information on the nature of consciousness which I thought was well presented,

And I thought you had left that blog behind.

Dang.

Why on earth would you think I would do something like that? Why do you think I dont research things as you previously stated. I would ask you or anyone else to be respectful and not insulting and abide by the T&C of ATS.

Here is some more information on the subject for those who are interested from science daily, I reccomend it as a very good read. It talks about quantum vibrations in microtubules inside of neurons. Its not new its rather old information being rehashed about brainwaves and brain health.

A review and update of a controversial 20-year-old theory of consciousness claims that consciousness derives from deeper level, finer scale activities inside brain neurons. The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in "microtubules" inside brain neurons corroborates this theory, according to review authors. They suggest that EEG rhythms (brain waves) also derive from deeper level microtubule vibrations, and that from a practical standpoint, treating brain microtubule vibrations could benefit a host of mental, neurological, and cognitive conditions.
www.sciencedaily.com...

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Can you give at least one example (I assume you should have more than one) of how the mind would have to function, in order for it to be true that the mind utilizes quantum functions?

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Why on earth would you think I would do something like that?

Because quote a blog which says something like this

Evolution has a tendency to retain features, so there is no reason to believe that it would not have retained the ability to utilise quantum coherence in animal cells, and thus in neurons.

, in a science forum is sort of pointless.

I would ask you or anyone else to be respectful and not insulting and abide by the T&C of ATS.

I beg your pardon. What part of the T&C have I violated?

Its not new its rather old information being rehashed about brainwaves and brain health.

Yes, rehashed Penrose.

I would ask all who post on any thread and this one as well to keep in mind the T&C of decorum of ATS meaning be respectful dont be rude, dont make snide comments or insult other posters. Lets keep this a friendly atmosphere for all. Thank you


That being said I found this nice article on in the Huffington Post that talks about the brain as a quantum computer which I thought was relavent to the topic of the conversation and quite interesting.

Why Your Brain Is A Quantum Computer

Your brain is the command center that directs the flow of the precise, highly coordinated information crucial to your body's genetic, chemical, and physiological processes. These processes are based on the interaction of molecules and atoms, and subatomic particles. Though in large part biochemical, these processes have a significant nonlocal component as well. By "nonlocal," I refer to the finding in physics that particles once connected retain their connection and influence upon each other even at a distance--they are said to remain "entangled."

The particles and atoms in your body are "entangled" with each other: they receive and transmit information not just by biochemical means, but by the remarkable process known in quantum physics as "phase-conjugate quantum resonance." Phase-conjugate quantum resonance is a term used by physicists that means that the particles are "non-locally entangled." It is thanks to the existence of this ultrafast, ultrasubtle, but enormously efficient way of transmitting information that your body can be alive, and stay alive.

What's revealed at the leading edge of quantum physics and quantum biology is that your body is not just a biochemical system: it's also a "macroscopic quantum system." Quantum systems were believed to exist only at the submicroscopic level, where quanta are in the state known as "coherent," which means that they are able to get into synch with each other.

Our body is not just a biochemical system: it's also a macroscopic quantum system. Your brain is not just a bioelectric and biochemical computer, but also a quantum computer. The cells of your body, and the neurons and networks of neurons of your brain, are entangled with each other. This is why your brain can perform functions that are entire dimensions beyond the capacity of any conceivable biochemical system. If and when quantum computers are developed, we may for the first time see man-made systems that come close to matching your brain's information-processing powers.
www.huffingtonpost.com...

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

So can you come up with a unified theory as to what it is exactly that you believe? Present your version of how you think this all works

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

The huffington post is a glorified blog, not a scientific journal. It's also an opinion piece in the Religion section. Do you have any credible scientific evidence that directly support your claims?

a reply to: ImaFungi
I suggest reading the paper I cited. I only cited the summary but it goes into a lot of detail.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
I would ask all who post on any thread and this one as well to keep in mind the T&C of decorum of ATS meaning be respectful dont be rude, dont make snide comments or insult other posters. Lets keep this a friendly atmosphere for all.

Doesn't the T&C also say something about not posting off-topic in the wrong boards?

If you posted this in the metaphysics forum, you'd probably get a friendlier reception because scientific evidence isn't demanded to support claims in that forum. Also just because we are demanding scientific evidence to support your claims in this forum doesn't mean we aren't being friendly, We just expect that threads posted in the science forum to have scientific evidence to support them and your citations of blog posts fall miserably short of scientific evidence. The most interesting thing you came up with was a youtube video, which is hardly a scientific paper, and even that has been refuted.

Well since a few of the folks here think the brain and how it works needs to be in another forum, and dont like the sources and scientists mentioned thus far, just request it to be put in another forum. All will be well then, plenty of other information out there but why bother posting it as a few choose to believe this isnt science.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

You haven't posted any science, though. Proper, credible scientific evidence is going to take more than a few blogs and opinion pieces to convince anyone.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I believe that space and time and the workings of the human brain are very similar to a quantum computer

Well you must have been doing some intensive research indeed. Similar to what again? A theoretical quantum computer?
Did you take any measurements compared to a "theoretical quantum PC"?

en.wikipedia.org...

As of 2014, quantum computing is still in its infancy but experiments have been carried out in which quantum computational operations were executed on a very small number of qubits.

In September 2012, Australian researchers at the University of New South Wales said the world's first quantum computer was just 5 to 10 years away, after announcing a global breakthrough enabling manufacture of its memory building blocks.

Have to side with Phage on this, this thread does not belong in a science forum