British Government lends Russia Stolen Elgin Marble

Or more accurately a stolen Parthenon marble.
How odd that at a time like this with relations between Russia an the west at the lowest since the cold war we should choose to lend this stolen artifact to a Russian museum.

This is the stolen marble the British museum has loaned to Russia.

Sending it in secret to Russia was a nifty piece of footwork. Equally nifty would be if the Greeks could persuade Mr Putin to "return" it - but to Athens, not London.

Mr MacGregor says he is willing to start a dialogue with the Greeks about loans of this kind - and the idea of a permanent loan (of the whole Elgin collection) has been suggested in the past.

But for many Greeks, the idea of borrowing back what they regard as their own property would be painful.
www.bbc.co.uk...

The story of the marbles is well known and the refusal of the British government to return them to their rightful owners so they can be seen in context with the history of the site they were stolen from is a great sadness and a blot on our reputation in my opinion.

The Lord Elgin was a thief and a vandal and these sculptures should not be being loaned out they should be given back with an apology.

a reply to: gortex

Agreed, we should at the very least cut some kind of deal with Greece where they get them back and we get to display some of them on a rotational basis. I only say this as I freaking love seeing all of our plunder from around the world... other nation's feelings aside, i'd be sick as a parrot if I could not see stuff like all of the Sumerian stone work at the British Museum.

Selfish, I know. But i'm prepared to share, at least.

Ok, i will bite.....

Why are Britain wrong regarding the marbles? Lord Elgin received express written permission from the Ottoman authorities. As Athens was part of the Ottoman Empire it seems pretty much case closed to me - permission given to take, restore, remove, excavate, etc from the relevent authorities.

As this was all done above board and with permission, any return of the marbles would leave every museum in the world with a serious problem.

a reply to: skalla

Agreed, we should at the very least cut some kind of deal with Greece where they get them back and we get to display some of them on a rotational basis.

Perfect solution

i'd be sick as a parrot if I could not see stuff like all of the Sumerian stone work at the British Museum.

And there's the thing , the British museum has vaults stuffed full of artifacts they don't have room to display , giving the marbles back would free up space and give those pieces a chance to get an airing.

a reply to: Flavian

Lord Elgin received express written permission from the Ottoman authorities.

Lord Elgin got permission to document and take casts of the marbles he did not have permission to hack them of of the Parthenon and ship them home , the removal of the marbles using saws and hammers caused much damage.

Elgin stole them for himself not the nation and only sold them to the government when he went broke.

a reply to: gortex

The British Museum is overflowing with undisplayed stuff. Heck, you'd have to spend a few days visiting the place just to do justice to what is actually viewable.

Depending on the membership of various societies you can have special guided visits to see y0ur items of personal obsession - I know folks who are in Lithics societies who have handled rarely seen stone tools and the like. I should really get off my arse and fill in a few application forms I guess

a reply to: gortex

Elgin got permission to excavate, restore and remove items and not just from the Parthenon. In point of fact, he couldn't even have gained access to the Parthenon at the time without express written permission (it was an Ottoman military base).

Besides which, Greece didn't even exist at the time. Where do you stop? There are historical articles all over the world from Israel and the surrounding area. Should these all be returned now we have the state of Israel?

Im sorry Gortex, i usually really appreciate your threads and as such don't really want to get into an argument about it. The Elgin Marbles case just annoys me so much though......there are much better examples of items that we really should return instead of some that were effectively given by the relevent authorities at the time.

ETA:

Still starred and flagged because it is an interesting subject

They are British now, we should keep them. They don't belong to Greece anyway, it never existed then it was a different state. They were probably made by slaves from outside Greece anyway, how far can we pass them back, why not send them to Tehran? Added to which where does Greece get off from this? We took in loads of Greeks when the Trurks stole northern Cyprus, surely this is fair swap when we gave all those war weary Greeks a home along with the obligatory chippy............... Cash back

a reply to: Flavian

I share some of your feelings on this, imagine the British Museum (or as you point out, any Museum anywhere) without the results of our colonially minded antiquarians.

The BM would be as good as empty.

Deals and contracts to share and rotate are the way to go.

That way I wouldn't have to go to the Louvre or Smithsonian etc.

ETA: of course, certain items do tour, I just think that this should be extended

a reply to: skalla

I do take your point, i just think the Greeks are wrong about the marbles. Hell, before Elgin got there some were being used for target practice.

Out of interest, i have seen all about the items going to Russia.......what is coming back the other way?



There should be some truly amazing finds in Russian museums considering they had over 40 years of controlling the old Silk Road...

a reply to: Flavian

Sure, but I don't think that the Ottomans gave two hoots about pagan Greek art, but the Greeks sure care now.

If the Greeks has managed to get their mits on a Trilithon or two from Stonehenge or The Battersea Shield, i'd be spitting teeth!

And yar, what do we get from Russia? It seems that we are doing this unilaterally to mark an anniversary of The Hermitage Museum.

If I was Greek, i'd be way pissed at this.

IMO, it's really poor form and just not cricket, by Jove.

a reply to: Flavian

The letter is up for debate , it seems to be unclear as to what it actually allows.

which is the place of their work, in setting up scaffolding round the ancient temple of the Idols, and with moulding in lime paste (that is plaster) the same ornaments, and visible figures, in measuring the remains of other ruined buildings, and in undertaking to dig, according to need, the foundations to find the inscribed blocks, which may have been preserved in the rubble, be not interrupted, nor in any way impeded by the Governor of the Castle, nor any other person, and that no one meddle with their scaffolding, and implements, which they use for making moulds; and when they wish to take away some pieces of stone with old inscriptions, and figures, that no opposition be made, here for you is the present letter written and delivered by X [name unknown],
www.britishmuseum.org...

Does the bold part give him permission to cut the marbles from their positions ? , I don't think that was what was intended in the letter.

i usually really appreciate your threads and as such don't really want to get into an argument about it.

No argument just debate.

a reply to: gortex

I too think that Elgin was smart/sly (delete as appropriate) in how he used and interpreted his permission. I think Beeb 3 did a lengthy doc on this "a few" years ago, I don't remember much about it except my lasting impression that Elgin was less than honest.

Because The Ottoman's were Occupiers and had No Right to give permission for The British to Take away what rightfully belongs to The Greek People. It's the same as it's Illegal to have a conquered people sign away their rights to lands that have been conquered. It's Against International Laws, if that is at all understandable. I'm sure you Brits if you ever become a conquered people would take Great Displeasure to the fact that others cart your treasures away. Just put yourself in The Greek People's Shoes. Peace Arjunanda a reply to: Flavian

Ever heard "possession is nine tenths of the law"?

originally posted by: Bovah
Ever heard "possession is nine tenths of the law"?

Sure, there is that; but we could also take a wider view of engendering goodwill with another nation that many Brits visit, and maybe get some other awesomely cool Ancient Greek artefacts shown periodically in The British Museum in return which seems a win-win to me.

a reply to: gortex

How many museums around the world have " Stolen" artifacts from the Egyptian Pyramids and from other ancient sites?

Maybe every country that has artifacts that don't originally belong too them should send them back.

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: gortex

How many museums around the world have " Stolen" artifacts from the Egyptian Pyramids and from other ancient sites?

Maybe every country that has artifacts that don't originally belong top them should send them back.

That would defeat the idea of a museum. However, European museums have a much larger number of rare pieces for as Europeans expanded. explored and colonized the world they had the interest and money to gather up items not particularly valued in certain countries at certain times. They also took things by 'right of conquest'.

Those countries (if they even existed then) either could not or would not value or protect said items at that time.

Most countries now will. As Skalla has noted deals can be reached.

Museums should have access to items from all cultures, ie if you want to see a Jomon vase you shouldn't need to go to Japan.

a reply to: gortex

In the course of politics there must be areas that transcend parochial interests.

History belongs to everyone and not just one nations.

I think space exploration should be included as well.

originally posted by: skalla
a reply to: gortex

Agreed, we should at the very least cut some kind of deal with Greece where they get them back and we get to display some of them on a rotational basis. I only say this as I freaking love seeing all of our plunder from around the world... other nation's feelings aside, i'd be sick as a parrot if I could not see stuff like all of the Sumerian stone work at the British Museum.

Selfish, I know. But i'm prepared to share, at least.

The value put on material possessions makes me sick.