“Green Light” to War on Russia, H. Res. 758

a reply to: rebelv

Vote was 4 dec...only 10 have voted against it.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Yes of course. Because every president fires a few hundred people to shut them up.

I`m not talking about all of them, but just as with 9/11, Iraq its WMDs, Assad its Chemical Weapons, MH17, etc., there are too many anomalies too believe the "official" story.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

You do realize that firing them is MORE likely to get them to talk. They already don't talk or they wouldn't have made rank. Ruining their career over something is more likely to make them bitter and want to talk.

a reply to: letscit

And if it starts a war the US military if screwed. You don't do economic warfare that's likely to start a war without a military to back it.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Most will simply choose comforting retirements over accidents and family being harassed.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Yes, destroying a career and putting them in a position where they're MORE likely to talk makes perfect sense, when you already KNOW they won't talk.

originally posted by: letscit
going for the gold

It's a good point. Russia has been stocking up on gold for several years now even despite the price of gold dropping...not usually a time to stockpile.

The reality is Russians aren't stupid. They saw the devastating sanctions placed against Iran and given their economy is similar enough to Iran just larger they knew exactly what would happen when they did something the US didn't like. They build up reserve funds and stocked enough gold to be able to back the Ruble with gold if push comes to shove economically. Well, they don't have quite enough gold to do it...but they are getting there.

The Russians don't believe the EU and US will be in the sanctions game for the long term. This is a fatal mistake I believe. The sanctions aren't designed to immediately cripple Russia. They are designed to slowly bleed the country to death. Working with the Saudis to tank the price of Oil is a crippling move orchestrated by the US. The Saudis and US are pretty close...possibly closer than Israel is sometimes I think.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

Russians are infact very stupid when seen the decisions their leadership has taken in the last 100 or so years.

Even after horrendous depression of 1990s, when Putin came to power, he did little to curb and clean corruption from the society. Today, Russia is paying with both hands, to the inefficiencies created by the corruption culture.

The western modus operandi is to first weaken a country via sanctions and then pick a reason to play war.

After 2008 Georgia war, Putin should have shut down the NDN supply network to US troops in Afghanistan sending a message that any "geopolitical adventurism" on Russia's near abroad will be replied with severe actions. Wonder if Ukraine would have happened after such reaction from Moscow. This year, West kept on piling sanctions on Putin but he still kept the NDN open even when his ruble collapsed by 50% and oil prices were engineered down by 30% and more.

Still calling DC, London and Brussels "our western partners".............Mr. Putin and Mr. Lavrov?

Guess Russian leaders need a strong dose of "self esteem and pride" and only then people will learn the same.

Tsarism, Communism, Stalinsim, Corruptionism all flogged the Russian people's psychology into submission and "head cleaning" needs to start from the top levels.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: letscit
going for the gold

It's a good point. Russia has been stocking up on gold for several years now even despite the price of gold dropping...not usually a time to stockpile.

The reality is Russians aren't stupid.

So sure are you?

Chinese are smart. They are winning.

They saw the devastating sanctions placed against Iran and given their economy is similar enough to Iran just larger they knew exactly what would happen when they did something the US didn't like.

They could have not invaded Ukraine. They could have found and negotiated with a mutually agreeable successor to the scum Yanukovych (remember impeached by unanimous vote, including own party).

They could have not treated Ukraine like a backwater outpost. They could have been fine with Ukraine being friends with both EU and Russia.

But they didn't.

If they had, the ruble would be at 30 and not 60, commerce and prosperity would be flowing, and NATO would be snoozing.

They build up reserve funds and stocked enough gold to be able to back the Ruble with gold if push comes to shove economically. Well, they don't have quite enough gold to do it...but they are getting there.

Really? If there's a time to do it, now is it. They aren't. I keep on hearing in conspiracy places and anti-USA screeds how the magic ruble is going to crush the soon to be defeated dollar, but the facts keep on going in the other direction.

The Russians don't believe the EU and US will be in the sanctions game for the long term. This is a fatal mistake I believe. The sanctions aren't designed to immediately cripple Russia. They are designed to slowly bleed the country to death. Working with the Saudis to tank the price of Oil is a crippling move orchestrated by the US.

Given the US increase in domestic fracking I find that very unlikely. I think it's a Saudi move orchestrated by Saudi, against Russia and Iran and Daesh.

There will be no war against Russia, peace will reign on earth as mankind will realise theres no difference between one country from the next. The new war will be against hatred itself, and the us vs them mentality that has held human kind in ignorance of seperation for far too long. Be prepared to awaken to a ancient truth of unity, a singularity is comming and any attempt at wars by the powers will be will be shut down.

Mark my words it will never ever become a reality. The fear mongers will lose all power over others in the truth of the singularity!

a reply to: mbkennel

Given the US increase in domestic fracking I find that very unlikely. I think it's a Saudi move orchestrated by Saudi, against Russia and Iran and Daesh.

Somewhere I read that US fracking technology efficiency has increased and now break even has come down from $70/brl to $57/brl. So US is still above the water when it comes oil prices. No fracking based production is going to stop unless prices fall below $60.

If Russia had waited for Kiev Junta to consolidate and build economic ties with EU, then it would have been all over without a shot being fired............but this time for Moscow not Kiev. Junta would have built up a strong army, enforced weakening measures on Donbass regions, moved the factories and resources out and worst when time was right, the fascist Kiev Junta would have started to create problems in Russia's south.

Putin fired his shots in the right directions but lacked a little in power and range. He should have armed Donbass fighters with much higher calibre weapons so that Kiev Junta would have given up any plans to fight and retake the lost territories.

Mark my words there will be no war, this is called saber rattling. The military would revolt and perform a KU before they allowed such a destructive world war to come to pass. Why because some love the world too much to allow it all to fall to ruin for the needs of a few which do no outweigh the needs of the many.

originally posted by: mbkennel

Yes, I'm sure Russians aren't stupid.

The issue isn't really Ukraine to be honest, just like it wasn't about Georgia in 2008. People often endlessly stare at the symptoms instead of looking deeper at the causes. Russia isn't complex to be honest, but you can't understand it from websites an Ocean away.

Actually now isn't the time to Gold back the Ruble. It is simply mirroring the price of Oil for the most part. There are stronger economic sanctions that if implemented would trigger the switch to Gold. It's more a last resort move. BTW it has nothing to do with crushing the US dollar. I think you've confused me with some Putin paid internet trolls!

It's pretty funny to hear that the Saudi's are tanking oil to move against Russia. It would take an extensive argument and many unheard facts for me to even begin to believe that. I'll keep believing the Saudis are punishing investors in shale and tar sands with US approval to punish Russia at this critical time....until evidence changes.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
Mark my words there will be no war, this is called saber rattling. The military would revolt and perform a KU before they allowed such a destructive world war to come to pass. Why because some love the world too much to allow it all to fall to ruin for the needs of a few which do no outweigh the needs of the many.

Sorry poster, but I find beliefs like these troubling.

There already is an economic war underway. That is on top of the shadow war that has heated up in many countries all around the world. The world is truly a step closer to open conflict between nuclear armed countries. Russia will eventually begin to lose the economic war and face the option to escalate or backdown. It's a big decision.

The Russian or US military won't 'revolt' if ordered against each other.

I like your faith in humanity but I put my faith in what I see.

originally posted by: victor7
Somewhere I read that US fracking technology efficiency has increased and now break even has come down from $70/brl to $57/brl. So US is still above the water when it comes oil prices. No fracking based production is going to stop unless prices fall below $60.

I believe the costs of fracking have decreased as well. You also have to understand that the huge cost of investment is considered a sunk cost. Production only has to cover operational costs to keep going...anything left over helps recover those sunk costs. I don't see current shale production slowing down until below $40/brl. Of course investment into new production has already dried up. That alone will shrink shale production because of how fast wells become unproductive.

originally posted by: victor7
...the fascist Kiev Junta ...

Statements like these really discredit yourself. I don't think ATS readers are remotely swayed by state propaganda. You can call the new leaders in Ukraine anything you like, but it reflects more on you than them.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

I think you've confused me with some Putin paid internet trolls!

Calm down, everyone who doesn`t follow the "official" Western Governments stories is anti-American and by so a pro-Russian, pro-Assad, pro-Gaddafi, etc. in the minds of some paranoid Americans, no need to get all worked up about it.

While the cause of the Rouble decline can be contributed to the sanctions and oil price partially, it has been going too low to not know there`s also an attack going on by very big foreign speculators. The Kremlin needs to see if they can curb that from happening or else they can be forced to back the Rouble with gold.

It`s not needed for Russia to have more gold at the moment to make that move, they can easily use what they have for backing with issuing gold backed paper and it would be sufficient.

But backing the Rouble with gold has also got some drawbacks, and I think they will see it as somewhat a defeat and by so will do it as a last resort. So something to be watching out for if they will be be able to stop the big foreign attacks on the Rouble.

Russia has the stomach to weather it out for some time if they are able to stabilize the Rouble. Everyone forgets Russia still gets revenues from oil, gas and other stuff, doesn`t have huge debts, has reserves and is still connected with a large part of the World.

If Saudi Arabia has gotten the "order" to subdue the oil prices for some considerable time to hit Russia, I`m wondering who has picked up the bill, because SA also needs 100$ oil to balance its budget.

And no matter which choice Russia would have made regarding the Ukraine, the economic attack on Russia would have happened anyway because a reason would still have been created.

It`s now all up the majority of ordinary Russians to use their brains so they will keep sovereignty and don`t fall for the "it`s Putin`s fault paradigm." If they don`t want to end up being plundered and enslaved for decades to come, they better now endure a little more hardship instead of loosing their emotions.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

And no matter which choice Russia would have made regarding the Ukraine, the economic attack on Russia would have happened anyway because a reason would still have been created.

This is exactly what Russian mindset does not understand........even their leaders do not understand. After USSR fell apart, Russians thought its all good and Americans are best of friends. Despite repeated hard slaps on the face, they do not learn the true intentions of the Americans and Westerns.

There is no respectable place for Russia World, Orthodox and Slavic type people in the western mindset. Russians should spend more efforts in trying to make their country like the west in positive sense rather than first corrupting the state funds and sending them overseas and soon following these funds to go and settle in the western countries. If this trend does not stop, then Putin can try all his best to curb the ruble/oil slide but Russia will keep on decaying from inside.

God forbid another Yeltsin type man comes to power, and then will be final bells ringing loud in Kremlin.

originally posted by: Ancient Champion
a reply to: Plugin

Putin said he was ready for war, not the Russain people. What Putin wants is not want the Russain people want.

This.

The reason for war is usually leaders. And yet the people do not oppose them enough. Sigh. Read here:
www.psychologicalscience.o rg - Why Do People Defend Unjust, Inept, and Corrupt Systems?...

Think about this... Nazi Germany could not have fought in the war without the people of Germany. The people, like it or not, made the parts needed for the mar machine and sent their children to the front. Did they WANT to? No. Did they? Yes. Not all of them, but enough did.

Yet if the German people had chosen NOT to support the Nazi's, they would have been threatened or more likely imprisoned or shot. Still, if enough of them had opposed the Nazi's, the war wouldn't have been possible. And in any court of law, if you're an accomplice to a crime, I do not believe "They made me do it!" will fully exonerate you.

a reply to: victor7

This is exactly what Russian mindset does not understand........even their leaders do not understand.

They understand according to Dmitry Orlov, Russia just keeps talking to the enemy.

There is no respectable place for Russia World, Orthodox and Slavic type people in the western mindset.

Only Russia as a power house, but that has only to do with US wanting to stay World hegemony. US has no other choice anymore, it`s power is crumbling and all needs to be done to keep the Petrodollar alive...once The West loses the battle over the resources the Petrodollar goes belly up and by so the US and EU.

i feel this needs added to the discussion.

vineyardsaker.blogspot.ch... cancellation-of-south.html

Briefly, at that period, the assumption was that Russia would become the great supplier of energy and raw materials to Europe. This was the period of Europe's great “rush for gas” as the Europeans looked forward to unlimited and unending Russian supplies. It was the increase in the role of Russian gas in the European energy mix which made it possible for Europe to run down its coal industry and cut its carbon emissions and bully and lecture everyone else to do the same.

However the Europeans did not envisage that Russia would just supply them with energy. Rather they always supposed this energy would be extracted for them in Russia by Western energy companies. This after all is the pattern in most of the developing world. The EU calls this “energy security” - a euphemism for the extraction of energy in other countries by its own companies under its own control.

It never happened that way. Though the Russian oil industry was privatised it mostly remained in Russian hands. After Putin came to power in 2000 the trend towards privatisation in the oil industry was reversed. One of the major reasons for western anger at the arrest of Khodorkovsky and the closure of Yukos and the transfer of its assets to the state oil company Rosneft was precisely because is reversed this trend of privatisation in the oil industry.

some more i feel needs added. one needs to look at all this through the eyes of a detective. you need to hear both sides to find the truth in the middle. tons of propaganda (bs) from both sides.

so now if eu wants the gas they have to get it from turkey. i know turkey has been an ally, but quite frankly so was russia. the problem is many have been treating turkey like crap, the same as is happening to russia. turkey not as bad but they have felt slighted by the west for quite a few years now. and now this comes out today, after just reading yesterday that turkey is blocking entry of the isis fighters. which according to some has been helping isis as isis, according to some, is the west's proxy army.

www.bloomberg.com... ipping-chokepoint-strangles-ukraine-hopes-for-u-s-lng.html

Ukraine’s LNG plans may be further complicated by Russia’s decision this week to scrap its $45 billion South Stream gas pipeline to Europe, favoring instead a Black Sea link to Turkey. Strengthening ties between Russia and Turkey may make it even less likely that the government in Ankara would open up the Bosporus to LNG tankers. Russia already supplies 59 percent of Turkey’s gas.