Anu/Yahweh/Saturn tried to replace Anshar/El/Uranus - Saturn tries to overthrow Father Heaven?

Anu took the spotlight along with Enlil and Enki; but not Anu's father Anshar (Father of Heaven).

Cronus took the spotlight along with Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades; but Ouranos (The Father of Heaven).

Yahweh took the spotlight along with Baal, Leviathan/Yam, and Samael/Satan; but not EL (The Merciful Father to whom Jesus called "Abba" and cried out "Eli, Eli, Lema Sachthani" on the cross.

Even more interesting is that these "sons of The God of Heaven" tried to directly attack or claim to be "The God of Heaven" themselves...

such as Anu trying to replacing Anshar, Chronos trying to replacing Ouranos, or Yahweh trying to replacing EL

Another interesting thing is that usually, the son who tries to overthrow his Heavenly Father is usually associated with Saturn.

Brahma (also associated with Saturn according to Parashara) was created by Vishnu of The Cosmic Waters and Oceans of Milk (Light) who is commonly known to others in his form of Krishna.

This conspiracy to overthrow "The Father of Heaven who created all the other 'gods' " by his rebellious son who claims to be him or attack him directly is seen in many religions.

Right now, I believe that Earth is a battle between Life (Love/Peace/Joy) and Death (Hatred/War/Suffering). Let's hope that people who worship these Saturnian Gods (controlling gods who want to overthrow The God of Heaven) will realize what is going on.

EDIT: I also heard that Ra was originally a Saturn god but I have any good references for this at the moment. Either way, Ra took the spotlight over Atum.

I am having a hard time following the message you are trying to get across. Unless things are directly spelled out for me, it is difficult for me to assimilate the information being discussed.

But the topic of Saturn worship is very interesting indeed - as the symbols are flooded within our society, and are completely unknown to most people.

For example: the Jewish Star of David is actually not a Jewish symbol, but was adopted by during the reign of King Solomon - and the symbol is actually the symbol of Saturn. If you draw a line between each point of the star you will get a hexagon. There is a naturally occurring hexagon on the planet Saturn at its pole.

The Black Cube is also a symbol of Saturn.

Saturn is known by many names - Moloch, Saturn, etc.

The Pentagram, while only five points, represent Satan - and Satan is taken from the word Saturn. So again it is associated with Saturn.

The symbols are everywhere - even with Santa Clause. Christmas used to be a pagan holiday for Saturn, called the holiday of Saturnalia. Saturn's color is red. The god Saturn was a bearded God. So mix the red clothes with the big white beard, and you get the depiction of Santa....

Interesting stuff.

a reply to: arpgme

i dont think life and death need battle one another anymore than your right hand need cut off your left hand. they are two halves of the same cycle, each as necessary as the other. renewal and revolution. this divide and conquer tactic is getting pretty old.

It is said Uranus was married to Earth.

From what i remember..........

Uranus (The Bridegroom) will return for Earth (The Bride). He was mutilated by his son Saturn (Cronus) and disposed as king of Heaven. The age of Aquarius is Uranus coming back to rule again. Saturn (Time) will be defeated. This is why many people feel there is a raise in our consciousness occurring. Christ consciousness, the end of psychological time. The Age of Aquarius.

a reply to: arpgme

Great observations in the OP! Much appreciated! S&F

Great stuff

The "heavenly father" could be the imposter, no?

How can one be sure.


Back then he was a she.....

He-Kate, lol

Hecate or Hekate (/ˈhɛkətiː, ˈhɛkɪt/; Greek Ἑκάτη, Hekátē) is a goddess in Greek religion and mythology, most often shown holding two torches or a key[1] and in later periods depicted in triple form. She was variously associated with crossroads, entrance-ways, dogs, light, the Moon, magic, witchcraft, knowledge of herbs and poisonous plants, necromancy, and sorcery.[2][3] In the post-Christian writings of the Chaldean Oracles (2nd-3rd century CE) she was regarded with (some) rulership over earth, sea and sky, as well as a more universal role as Saviour (Soteira), Mother of Angels and the Cosmic World Soul.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Just one of many interpretations of the triple goddess.

The church has superimposed itself over the real truth with baptism and "holy water" people once got from holy wells themselves. the church effectively placing themselves between man and... Well...

a reply to: arpgme

Anu took the spotlight along with Enlil and Enki; but not Anu's father Anshar (Father of Heaven).

The Enuma Eliš, the only Mesopotamian cosmogony where Anšar can be found, is actually a piece of Babylonian propaganda. Anšar does not actually predate An ( =Anu ) as the abstract Heavenly principle. The tricky part about the peoples of Mesopotamia is understanding what order they came in, here's a small chart to help (all dates are relative, and in accordance with the Middle Chronology timeline):

4000 BC - Uruk and the Sumerians
2334 BC - Agade and the Akkadians
2112 BC - Ur and the Neo-Sumerian Renaissance
2000 BC - Ašur and the Assyrians
1900 BC - Babylon and the Babylonians
900 BC - Ašur and the Neo-Assyrian Renaissance
630 BC - Babylon and the Neo-Babylonian Chaldean Renaissance

From roughly 4000-1900 BC the Mesopotamian host was ruled by the Anunnaki ( = An, Enlil, Enki, Inanna, Nanna, Ninhursag, and Utu ). At this time there were 4 primordial abstract "creator" deities:

An - the Heavens, stars, and atmosphere
Ki - the Earth and all its geography
Nammu - the subterranean Abyss or Apsû
Kur - the dangerous Underworld

None of these deities/concepts possessed a lineage of any kind: no fathers, no mothers. They simply always existed. When the Babylonians arose out of the chaos of the Gutian collapse c. 1900 BC they retconned the previous Sumerian and Akkadian mythologies to better suit their own empire and its state-god, Marduk. Thus was born the Enuma Eliš, with it's "pairs" of ancestral deities:

Tiāmat and Abzû
Lahmu and Lahamu
Anšar and Kišar
An and Antu

In reality, these ancestral pairs are just an explanation for the subterranean emergence of reality from the Abyss. Tiāmat is none other than Nammu, and Abzûis a personification of her element, the Abyss, or Apsû. Lahmu and Lahamu are a personification of river silt, mud, sand, and the banks of the Abyss. Anšar and Kišar are the prototypical space and earth, while An and Antu are the engendered principles of all of the above. It was the Babylonians way of dealing with an ever growing understanding of the world around them.

Therefore, An never usurps the throne from Anšar, as Anšar never had it to begin with.


~ Wandering Scribe

a reply to: Wifibrains

This guys worth a watch.

a reply to: Wandering Scribe

In reality, these ancestral pairs are just an explanation for the subterranean emergence of reality from the Abyss. Tiāmat is none other than Nammu, and Abzûis a personification of her element, the Abyss, or Apsû. Lahmu and Lahamu are a personification of river silt, mud, sand, and the banks of the Abyss. Anšar and Kišar are the prototypical space and earth, while An and Antu are the engendered principles of all of the above.

Among many more.

I like the way you used the mud/silt metaphors if I am right in assuming they are the consciousness that stays put in a slower rate of change but still shaped by faster flowing waters from above that flow within?

Just to visualise something that can't be seen....

a reply to: arpgme

Hello again arpgme. I've presented my conclusions many times in AlephBet's threads. I have concluded that the archetypes, qualities, and parallels fit best when we make the following associations:

• Most High
El Elyon (Judaism)
Elyon (Canaanite)
Anu (Mesopotamian)
Anu (Hurrian)
Uranus (Greek)
Caelus (Roman)

Succeeded or Usurped by:

• God the Father
(Elohim / Anunnaki / Olympians)
El / Elohim (Judaism)
El (Canaanite)
Enlil (Mesopotamian)
Kumarbi (Hurrian)
Cronus (Greek)
Saturn (Roman)

Succeeded or Usurped by:

• Son of God
(B'nei Elohim / Sons of El / Igigi / Titans)
Yahweh (Judaism)
Baal Hadad (Canaanite)
Marduk [Son of Ea/Enki] (Mesopotamian)
Teshub (Hurrian)
Zeus (Greek)
Jupiter (Roman)

a reply to: arpgme

Truth is that we were once all eaqual in abilities. The same technology used to create us and allow us to have a world within ourselves has now been used to change the way we look at things. We have been programmed to attract to shiney things and consume. What we call jewels and precious metals on earth are really that that give the person called power and so on to every other planet being. I do not know the names of who is on top no but the way they got their power was by getting us to robb ourselves of the objects within us that gave us every good thing we now desir to find again. greed injected into the aether was the methoed. This back and forth of names to me has now become pointless to the fact one still holds himself untouched while the rest suffer in ignorrance.

To remedy this there is a way. Just as Jesus could heal there is a way. He healed people back to their current health in the time period they lived but a way to heal back to previous time periods would work to restore to physical condition of the begining but remain here and now. I am working on it lol it only takes one nutter to believe anything is possible and any who adds to that belief by way of faith only increases the odds of success.

a reply to: Wandering Scribe

Always a pleasure reading your insights to Mesopotamian lore. Although I disagree with some of your ways of putting things (like calling Enuma Elish Babylonian propaganda for instance) It's always refreshing to see what you come up with from your well of knowledge in things Mesopotamian. According to it's Wikipedia page:

en.wikipedia.org...

The Enûma Eliš exists in various copies from Babylon and Assyria. The version from Ashurbanipal's library dates to the 7th century BCE. The composition of the text probably dates to the Bronze Age, to the time of Hammurabi or perhaps the early Kassite era (roughly 18th to 16th centuries BCE), although some scholars favour a later date of c. 1100 BCE[2].

[note number 2]Bernard Frank Batto, Slaying the dragon: mythmaking in the biblical tradition, Westminster John Knox Press, 1992, ISBN 978-0-664-25353-0, p. 35.

This does place the booke within the Babylonian period, but to call it propaganda? Well, I guess one could put it that way, but it would still be mere speculation. Unless of course you could convince me by explaining your view. Care to extrapolate?

Because precious metals are used for technology. That is their *mystical* property.

And it's undeniable. And for the fact that certain metals are durable and can survive much.
But it's our knowledge of swords armor and metalcraft that makes these things so important.

the fact you can meld gold into a ring or crown is evidence of this. It's all about technology. As a gold mine is technology. Stylish but technology non the less.

If you pick up a rock, it can become technology too. But rocks are so common. Why would you trade crops that take time to grow. When you can trade it for coins that took time to mine, smelt, and aquire?

You would trade crops for copper or silver because both can be melded into different objects if need be. Later peoples faces were put on them to make it illegal to do so, and so coins became currency as metals became more common.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

But Enki worship was going on since the third millennium BCE so Wandering Scribe is right, Enuma Elish with Anshar is a newer story.

It's difficult to find a good source of information on Enki. I don't trust the Zacharia Stichen's stuff. He claims Marduk was planet Mars which is false, he was depicted as an actual being who fault against Tiamat; and there is no reason to believe Tiamat means "planet Earth" since she is a representation of chaos, usually described as a dragon.

Also, there's people claiming that Enki is Satan. En (Lord) ki (Earth) means "Lord of Earth" and Satan was called "The God of This World" (2 Corinthians 4:4) but no where in the Bible does it say that satan brought the dead back to life with the "bread of life" or "water of life" so they can escape the dangerous underworld (hades/sheol/hell, whatever you want to call it), but Enki did.

People are also claiming that Enki is associated with Orion, but his symbol is actually The Fish (Pisces Constellation) "the stars of Ea":



but The Square of Pegasus (ASH-IKU) also is associated with him:



Could this "Square of Pegasus" be the watery abyss (Namma/Abzu) Enki was born out of (if it's true)?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

In order to understand why Enuma Eliš served as propaganda you'll need a crash-course in Mesopotamian history. I know that you're already an interested student, so, I'll do my best not to weigh this down with excessive details.

Our crash course will start with 2334 BCE, the advent of the first Agaside Dynasty. This dynasty, centered in the city-state of Agade, was founded by a Semitic warlord named Šarru.kīnu, who you may known better by his Latinized name: Sargon the Great. Unlike the warring city-states of the Sumerian kings, Sargon's reign introduced something new to Mesopotamia: empire building. Alongside this Sargon also lead a series of religious revisions, mainly promoting the goddess Ištar ( = Inanna), whom he believed to have been his "personal goddess" (think guardian angel).

To aid in this effort, Sargon's daughter Enheduana, High Priestess of Ur and servant of the moon-god Sîn ( = Nanna) began writing poems, praises, and temple hymns recounting the deeds and actions of the great gods, and their influence over Mesopotamia. Enheduana composed no less than 42 pieces, all which served as early propaganda, meant to invoke the gods and goddesses of Mesopotamia through the eyes of the Akkadian people. This effort served to stabilize the diverse Sumerian pantheon, as well as introduce a sense of cultural unity and identity among the ethnically diverse peoples over which Sargon's dynasty reigned.

Now, today the idea of a cultural identity ( "American" or "Mexican" or "European" ) may seem like a commonplace thing. In the last quarter of the second millennium BCE though, it was a revolutionary concept. Sargon's empire was so monumental because it was the first real empire, run by a real "emperor," with real multi-cultural needs. For a while the Agaside Dynasty met and fulfilled those needs, creating an empire that wouldn't be matched (or exceeded) again for nearly 2000 years.

We'll now move forward in time, to 2153 BCE, the end of the Agaside Dynasty. Grown too top heavy and corrupted by hubris, the descendants of Sargon had abused their power, and were now being slain left and right by a group of mountain-dwelling raiders known as the Guti. These people, from the eastern Zagros mountains, had no written language, history, or identifiable archaeological culture. They were, for all intents and purpose, primitive barbarians. What they also were, was good at their job. By 2150 BCE the Guti had slain Šu.turul, the last King of Agade, and the Akkadian empire was done.

For the next 256 years the land of Mesopotamia was cast into chaos. A "dark age" descended, and all movement forward, as had been instigated by Sargon, was dashed against the stubborn will of the Guti, who made no effort to repair the infrastructure they had destroyed in their raids. Even when a series of former Sumerian city-states, like Isin, Lagaš, Larsa, and Ur rose up in the Neo-Sumerian Ur III Renaissance (c. 2112 BCE) it was not enough to re-ignite the spark that had once burned bright under the Agaside Dynasty. Guti, Elamite, and other "lesser" cultures continued to hold sway and prevent progress.

Then, in 1897 BCE, something completely unremarkable happened. Sumu.abu, the ensí of a small village called Babylon, gained independence from his overbearing masters in the city-state of Kazallu. While this appeared to be a minor victory for the people of Babylon, Sumu.abu had bigger plans in store. For the next 100 years the ensí of Babylon worked tirelessly to reinforce and strengthen their little villages foundation, until, around 1792 BCE a very important ensí came to power. His name was Hammu.rāpi, or, as you may known him: Hammurabi. Two important things happened during the reign of Hammurabi:

1) Babylon claimed to be the successor to the ancient city of Eridu, home of Enki, god of the Abyss, magic, and basically anything anyone could ever require.

2) Hammurabi successfully founded the second true "empire" of Mesopotamia, nearly (but not quite) equaling that of Sargon the Great 600 years prior.

These two simple facts resulted in a history that would shake the foundations of the ancient world and resound through time for thousands of years to come. First, as the "living descendants" of ancient Eridu, it was necessary for Babylon's tutelary deity, a minor Amorite state-god named Amurrû ( = Mar.tu), to undergo a ret-conning, so that he could become the son of Enki. This was done through syncretization, by merging Amurrû with Enki's extant son, Asarluḫi, tutelary god of Eridu's Kuara district. Second, once again part of an empire, it became necessary for the people—diverse and multi-ethnic—to be unified under a religious, political, and social banner: that of the Babylonians.

(see part 2 below for the rest)

(continued from part 1 above)

Here, at last, we come to the Enuma Eliš.

As Enheduana had done for Sargon before, the Babylonians needed a culturally unifying mythology to support Marduk. This meant that the people's current beliefs needed to be unified, and then placed into a social schematic which elevated Marduk above and beyond. However, since much of the prior Sumerian and Akkadian material had been damaged or lost during the Gutian "dark age," certain creative liberties were taken, and other bits flat out invented to accommodate everyone's beliefs. For example:

• Nammu, the Sumerian denizen of Apsû, the subterranean Abyss, was transformed into Tiāmat, the lover of the now-personified subterranean abyss, Abzû. Where before Nammu represented the engendering and formative powers of life and water, Tiāmat now came to symbolize those same powers, but also the encroaching threat of non-existence and destruction that had so harshly wiped away the Sumerians and Akkadians that had once worshiped her. Thus Nammu, a once-loving goddess, become Tiāmat, the bitter mother who seeks to destroy her children.

• Anšar and Kišar. Besides representing the first sentient and engendered male-female duality in Babylonian mythology, these two figures (alongside Laḫmu and Laḫamu) were also presented as antecedents to the more commonly known pair of An and Ki ( = Antu). All eight deities ( Tiāmat, Abzû, Laḫmu, Laḫamu, Anšar, Kišar, An, and Antu) lead to the birth of Enki and Enlil. This conveniently lines up with the "ancestors of Enlil" cosmogony from the Ur III period (c. 2112 BCE) that find Enlil as the offspring of 6 "pairs" of generic male-female deities (En/Ninmul, En/Nindukuga, En/Nindašuruma, En/Ninmu.utula, En/Ninmešarra).

• Tiāmat's power over Anšar, An, and Enki. This one should be simple. Despite the power and majesty of the Sumerian and Akkadian peoples, a sea of mountain raiders successfully toppled their empire. No matter how great the Great Gods were, they could not prevent Tiāmat (the Guti and Elamites) from overrunning them.

The only one who can defeat Tiāmat? Marduk.
Who is Marduk? The state-god of the Amorites.
Who are the Amorites? The people who own Babylon.
What is Babylon? The city-state that restored the empire.

The Enuma Eliš is cultural propaganda, meant to bolster the priests of Marduk, and reinforce the greatness and glory that is the Babylonian empire. To this end Enuma Eliš was ret-conned by the Neo-Assyrian empire (c. 727 BCE) when they conquered Babylon. Only instead of Marduk, the Assyrian state-god Aššūr (modeled on the Sumerian state-god Enlil) was inserted. How did the Assyrians prove their legitimacy and superiority over the Babylonians? They made Aššūr into Anšar instead of Marduk, thereby suggesting that the Assyrians right to rule pre-dated that of the Babylonians and that Aššūr/Anšar, not Marduk, was really the one who defeated Tiāmat and kick-started all of Mesopotamian history.

None of this, of course, means I disapprove of Enuma Eliš. I'm quite fond of it, as I am of many other Mesopotamian myths. None-the-less, it is still a piece of theological propaganda, meant to convey a message and idea, rather than spiritual truth.

Sorry about the long read, but I hope this has helped!


~ Wandering Scribe

a reply to: Wandering Scribe



That was a wonderful summary! I have a lot to learn! Thanks for the information, it helped put a few things in a more clear perspective.

a reply to: Wandering Scribe

Thanks. I didn't know any of this. Information on the Sumerian gods and how they were changed and worshiped over time is difficult to find among all of the Zacharia Stichens and Enki=Satan stuff. Do you think these gods exist but they were misrepresented for a political agenda or do you think it's entirely made up?

These gods are metaphors for the actual planets. Overthrowing the father in heaven has something to do with one of the planets, maybe the morning star (venus/lucifer) overthrowing the sun of god/jesus turning night into day, or day into night. I'd have to look a lot deeper into the store to know which planetary cycles are being talked about. It sounds like the sun overtaking the moon turning night into day, or the moon overtaking the sun along with a star and planet turning day into night.

All the gods are based off of the 7 visible orbs of the sky, the constellations, and earth itself.


Santos Bonacci would know... Google him he's got a ton of knowledge about this stuff.

originally posted by: Wandering Scribe
Sorry about the long read, but I hope this has helped!

It's hardly long enough, you should write books about this. I know I'd read them if they existed. You write really well and what you write about, is really intriguing and written so I can understand it (which is rather uncommon with many authors in things Mesopotamian). You should have some of your work published imo. You could be the new Kramer

Thanks for your efforts. I still wouldn't consider words like propaganda to discribe the Babylonian efforts to promote Marduk in order to somehow legitimise Babylon's right to stay in power. That said, I am somewhat confused about Assyria, and exactly where and when they were doing their thing down there. For Assyria fell to Babylon, didn't they? And Babylon ultimately fell under Persia's gauntlet Cyrus, not Assyria. Please help me here if you can.