Calling in the army of a distant nation

The God of Israel sent the Assyrians against Judah for his own purposes.
That’s the message of Isaiah ch.5.

It begins with the great parable of the vineyard, which Jesus adapted later.
The owner of the vineyard had established it carefully with every possible advantage.
He expected good fruit from it, and found sour fruit instead.
What this means, without the metaphor, is that he expected them to treat each other with justice and righteousness, but he found the nation filled with bloodshed, and appeals for help coming from the victims.

In a series of “Woes”, the prophet spells out what is happening.

One is directed against those who are “adding field to field”, accumulating and monopolising property.
Another against those who rise early in the morning and stay up late for the sole purpose of “running after strong drink”.
Similarly there are those who are “heroes at drinking wine and mixing strong drink”, and also prone to legal corruption, taking bribes to acquit the guilty and convict the innocent.
“Wealth” is presumably the common factor between the corruption and the addiction to drinking.

But there is also “Woe” for the attitudes which underlie their behaviour.
These are people who are “wise in their own eyes”, a phrase found in Proverbs describing those who don’t seek wisdom and righteousness from God.
Instead of avoiding iniquity, they are pulling it towards themselves with strong rope.
They completely reverse moral values; “they call evil good and good evil, they put darkness for light and light for darkness”.
And they openly mock the justice of God and challenge him to do his worst;
“Let it come, that we may know it!”

What can God do with such a people?
In terms of the parable, he proposes to abandon the vineyard and allow it to be destroyed.
He can break down its hedges and withhold the rain.

Putting aside the metaphor, he threatens to “smite” them as a people, and this is where the Assyrians come in.
“He will raise a signal for a nation afar off, and whistle for it from the ends of the earth”.
The Assyrian army is portrayed as relentless and robotic. “None is weary, none stumbles, none slumbers or sleeps”.
There are no weaknesses in their array. Their arrows are all sharp and not a sandal-thong is broken.
They will seize their prey with the power of young lions, and they cannot be resisted.
The description rather resembles the onward rush of the locusts in Joel, who are also God’s chastising agents.
The result will be the near-destruction of Israel.

We ought to think about what this might mean for the church, who are God’s people Israel under the New Covenant.
The Old Testament people of Israel encountered trouble in the form of hostile neighbours and invaders.
The New Testament church has encountered trouble in the form of persecution.
In this passage, we see a reminder that at least some of the invasions of Israel were allowed by God because his people had wandered away from him, and he had withdrawn his protection as a chastisement, as the first step towards regaining their obedience.
We need to consider the possibility that the same explanation might sometimes apply to persecution.
For the church does wander away from God, and some of the troubles of the church can be seen as chastisement.
In fact it seems to me, reading between the lines of Revelation, that a “falling away” of the church lies in the background of the most notorious persecution of all, namely the “Great Tribulation” which calls forth the prophecies of that book.
In which case, the church would have helped to bring upon themselves what is described in the last words of this chapter;
“Behold, darkness and distress; and the light is darkened by its clouds”.

Yet the later chapters in both books reveal how the darkness will be dispelled.
There will be a redemption of the “faithful Zion”.

The overall message of the Bible, like the message of Isaiah, is that God will get his way, in the long term, and unite himself with the kind of people that he wants.

a reply to: DISRAELI

But the promise of the Father is that ALL nations will be blessed. The Rainbow followed another promise:

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

His blood was shed by the very nation he wanted to bless. The reason was his own bloodshed and division of the image. Hidden within this very short verse is the promise of retribution to Yahweh and the reason. He shed Adam's blood to make Eve, thereby dividing mankind from their true image. He then followed this up by choosing one nation to bless. How did he bless them? By continual war, taking whole nations from the Earth. That bloodshed has continued to this day.

There is no such thing as righteous war. The Father is the one we should look to for blessing. We are in a fallen state because of the Son. He is also the pathway out. We must overcome the error.

The Rainbow is the promise.

a reply to: AlephBet
I rest my comments on the words of Isaiah.
Isaiah was a prophet of the Lord, so if he says the Lord called in the Assyrians, that's good enough for me.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I'm not sure any longer if it can be trusted.

Ezekiel 13

3 “‘This is what Adonay Yahweh says: How horrible it will be for the foolish prophets. They follow their own ideas, and they have seen nothing. 4 Israel, your prophets are like foxes among the ruins of a city. 5 They haven’t repaired the gaps in the wall or rebuilt the wall for the nation of Israel. So Israel will not be protected in battle on the day of Yahweh. 6 These foolish prophets see false visions, and their predictions don’t come true. They say, “Yahweh said this.” But Yahweh hasn’t sent them. Then they hope that their message will come true. 7 Prophets of Israel, haven’t you seen false visions and predicted things that don’t come true? Don’t you say, “Yahweh said this,” even though I haven’t said anything?

Which prophets spoke the truth? Which lied? We know from Genesis 1:3 that Yahweh made the snake they fight. It only ends in Revelation when he defeats his own creation. That's what 'righteous' war brings--total destruction on the one playing both sides of the battle.

I tried to read Isaiah once from front to back. Have you tried this? It really gives you a sense of the heart of our accuser and adversary.

a reply to: AlephBet
Ezekiel is not talking about Isaiah. He is talking about the prophets who were offering false hope in inappropriate circumstances.
I have read all the Biblical prophets many times.

a reply to: AlephBet

Thank you for your post.

From my point of view. When it comes to spiritual people who get information from the other side of the veil there is the problem with ego projection where the spiritual person can over estimate the information and how much the person understand of the encounter. Sometimes the spiritual person also makes the mistake and believes because he/she has made contact that he/she have every detail right that normally people do not have.

The problem with subjective oversimplification and not seeing the information objectively. That is why idols are created. Subjective following of simplification instead of trying to get the bigger picture.

Funny how well it fits with the commandment:
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."

In one way this tells us to always question our subjective view and understanding.

Namaste

I should point out that Ezekiel's message was EXACTLY THE SAME as Isaiah's (that is, they both had the same combination of elements,talking of present judgement and future restoration).
The only difference is that Ezekiel and Jeremiah were prophesying at a time when Babylon instead of Assyria was the agent of judgement.
Therefore Ezekiel's words are not going to be directed against Isaiah.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Speaking from the larger picture, Is free will an accurate trade for the potential loss of the soul? Is it probable that a loving God (infinitely perfect in every way) is limited by patience? Would a loving God protect dignity, or use war and shame to be noticed by his followers? Is duplicity (sticks or carrots) a proper motivation mechanism for a God?

Answer these questions from the framework of knowing who made the Snake that deceives us. Here is a very easy litmus test for these questions. If your heart knows wrong from right, then what does it's opposite reveal?

Looking at the actions of Yahweh, can we see the opposite reflection in our own heart? This is my problem when reading books like Isaiah, or 1-2 Samuel. I cannot help but notice that the truth taught to me from the examples of the Bible then condemn the one teaching them. How? He continually fails by his own path in the wilderness. He is his own opposite. Self-righteousness is the same as wickedness.

Name one success accomplished by Yahweh in the Old Testament. Just name me one. We can't name a war campaign since the lessons he was trying to teach ended in utter failure and rejection of the very people he was trying to teach. Is God a failure? No. Pretending to be a god ends in failure.

No. Our hearts know the truth. How? They know the opposite by the example given in the Bible. Our primary teacher for this is Yahweh. He fought the very snake he created and seemingly failed to see the irony. His best lesson to us is how to fail at being a false god. Greek tragedy has nothing over the elements of this story. The hero cannot see his own failure (Hamartia).

From this, we have learned what not to do. Again, truth only appears by its opposite. Light is the same. Without matter, light cannot be seen. It's the light that is the truth and not the one crumbling under its weight.

Who provided the mechanism for the example? The Father (Elohim) of Genesis 1. He rested before the 2nd chapter was even finished. That's all the words He needed to show the truth. What is his truth? Give and do not take. What is Yahweh's lesson? The same, only by its opposite.

All examples after Genesis 2:3 shows us what a thief looks like. When we flip this to the will of the Father (giving and receiving), we have learned the ONLY lesson to be learned. Love founded on free will requires that we never take. Yahweh is a good example of why this is true as a tragedy.

The true God cannot and will not take. He gave us life and we will not take it back. Suffering ends when we choose to give as our will to live. When we do, death ends and sin is no longer a snake tempting us. We are here to learn the lesson of Yahweh. It's not one he fully understood until he fulfilled the words of Elohim on the cross:

Genesis 9

Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

He must return the creation he took back to its original state. This is the nail in his hand. First and Last. He is here to the end until he sees the light. Again, name one thing he did right that accomplished something for the Earth? The cross is it. Only one that mattered. The rest were in error.

Our lives are the same. Our personal job is recognizing what was overcome by the Son. He leads us in and he leads us out. His example sets both the opposite image and the true light in our hearts. Both good and evil. We must overcome the opposite of truth. Wars will end when the Son finally gives it up for good. Let's hope sooner rather than later.

His enemy is the one he created in the first place. He is at war with it until he realizes he fights himself.

a reply to: AlephBet
You are wandering away from the subject of Isaiah.
This is an Isaiah thread.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: AlephBet
You are wandering away from the subject of Isaiah.
This is an Isaiah thread.

The truth to learn from Isaiah is that Yahweh was out of control. He was then corrected on his day (day of the Lord) when Elohim fulfilled Genesis 9. That's the story of Isaiah. Yahweh spoke of himself in Isaiah 53.

a reply to: DISRAELI

What does fire have to do with bringing the people back to HIMSELF?

a reply to: OpinionatedB
The connection is that the warning is accompanied by the message "this is what happens when you wander away from me", and the promise that there is still time to ward off the trouble by returning to him (that part of the message was given in ch1, which I looked at last week).
It's the "carrot and stick" approach, found all through the Old testament prophets.

a reply to: AlephBet
The distinction is imaginary.
Let's focus on interpreting what Isaiah ch5 actually says, which is the object of the exercise.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: OpinionatedB
The connection is that the warning is accompanied by the message "this is what happens when you wander away from me", and the promise that there is still time to ward off the trouble by returning to him (that part of the message was given in ch1, which I looked at last week).
It's the "carrot and stick" approach, found all through the Old testament prophets.

I think this might be the entire point. If the real God appeared, we would not need motivation to recognize him. He would simply be obvious from his very presence. Not sticks or carrots necessary. Duplicity is from a fallen nature and not a motivation tool any different than a hammer to the head. Teachers even know this. Preserving the dignity of the student is the primary rule for any good teacher.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I think there might be a second thing. I think "Fire" Specifically fire from heaven, refers to the Holy Spirit. It is through the Holy Spirit that the world is destroyed, conquered, etc.

So maybe there is a duality in this somewhere? Or something we are not seeing when we concentrate on singularities?

I don't know.. but I feel like the Holy Spirit is the fire from heaven which destroys the "world" as it were.

a reply to: AlephBet
We will recognise God directly when he makes himself known directly.
In the meantime, God is dealing indirectly with man's human nature, and this is one way of doing it.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

We can compare this to Yahweh's compassion with Nineveh. He convinced Jonah that they needed to be saved, only to then crush them out of existence by the words of another prophet. We know the history on this. They were killed by their own human brothers. Yahweh motivated this to accomplish his words. He lied to Jonah. He also made Johan lie in the opening words of the book.

a reply to: OpinionatedB
There may be something in that at the deeper level.
I'm focussing mainly on the level of message which the people of Israel themselves could be expected to understand, where the metaphor in v24 is primarily about the speed and thoroughness of the destruction.

a reply to: DISRAELI

okay. But isn't Israel also to be saved? In the end?

originally posted by: AlephBet
a reply to: OpinionatedB

We can compare this to Yahweh's compassion with Nineveh. He convinced Jonah that they needed to be saved, only to then crush them out of existence by the words of another prophet. We know the history on this. They were killed by their own human brothers. Yahweh motivated this to accomplish his words. He lied to Jonah. He also made Johan lie in the opening words of the book.

You are obviously reading something other than the word of God. First, He promised nothing to Jonah, HE commanded Jonah to do a thing, which at first, Jonah did not want to do, then eventually he relented and did what He was commanded.

Then, according to the Word of God:

"Jonah Goes to Nineveh

3 Then the word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.”

3 Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it. 4 Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.” 5 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

6 When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7 This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:

“By the decree of the king and his nobles:

Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”

10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened."

www.biblegateway.com...

I will speak to you no further on this matter, as it is you who is misrepresenting God's word, and the truth.