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Cleveland cop kills child
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Yeah, some pretty real looking bb guns out there.
Here is one I got...
@ IceHappy : Bill Hicks rocks
Here is one I got...
@ IceHappy : Bill Hicks rocks
originally posted by: Bone75
I'm not sure what the inner city culture is like in Cleveland, but where I'm from (New Orleans) a 12 year old kid will shoot you just as quick as a grown adult. Until people come to terms with this unfortunate reality, nothing is ever gonna change for the better.
I live in Cleveland, and I am no fan of the Cleveland PD. But I don't see where this particular officer had any real choice. The area where this happened is a fairly rough gang infested and crime ridden area. In a few days we will know for certain what happened, the local news outlets are waiting for the surveillance footage from the rec center cameras. As long as the film backs up the officers side of the story, the only thing that can be said is he did what unfortunately he had to do.
a reply to: Greven
You guys need to ask yourselves is this acceptable for a society to continue the way things are. You know these incidents will not stop happening unless there is a change.
Is it the police who should change tactics? From the police point of view the only way of minimising risk to officers is to respond the way they do presently. However, it has proved not to be without constant misunderstandings, mistakes and even possible abuse. The balance is tipped in the officer's favour to guarantee him/her a certain level of protection.
I am hoping technology may help in the future as I see no way of getting out of this present trend of misunderstandings that result in death for people who have not even broken the law. If somehow before officers enter into any risk they are better informed about what they will face? They do it with suspect devices (possible bombs). They send in a robot first. It is a very successful and proved saver of lives.
I am very sad to say I can't see a way out of this without either putting officers at more of a risk than they or the insurers are willing to take or disarming the public which in my opinion might even cause a revolution in a country that identifies itself culturally with the right to bear arms.
You guys need to ask yourselves is this acceptable for a society to continue the way things are. You know these incidents will not stop happening unless there is a change.
Is it the police who should change tactics? From the police point of view the only way of minimising risk to officers is to respond the way they do presently. However, it has proved not to be without constant misunderstandings, mistakes and even possible abuse. The balance is tipped in the officer's favour to guarantee him/her a certain level of protection.
I am hoping technology may help in the future as I see no way of getting out of this present trend of misunderstandings that result in death for people who have not even broken the law. If somehow before officers enter into any risk they are better informed about what they will face? They do it with suspect devices (possible bombs). They send in a robot first. It is a very successful and proved saver of lives.
I am very sad to say I can't see a way out of this without either putting officers at more of a risk than they or the insurers are willing to take or disarming the public which in my opinion might even cause a revolution in a country that identifies itself culturally with the right to bear arms.
edit on 24-11-2014 by lonesomerimbaud because: punctuation and spelling.
For once, I actually think the cop did the right thing considering the info at hand and actions of the kid. There seemed to be no way to know if that
weapon was real or not at that split-second moment in time, and to be blunt, I'd rather people in general not find out the hard way if a presumed
false weapon is actually real instead of just putting hands in the air.
Put you hands in the damn air, and keep them there until told otherwise. Don't reach for crap, because even in my personal opinion, that equals a different intent that may be harmful or deadly to others. My six year old knows never to move your hands from a cop's sight or reach for things if they tell you to put your hands up. There's no excuse for a kid twice her age to not understand this.
Put you hands in the damn air, and keep them there until told otherwise. Don't reach for crap, because even in my personal opinion, that equals a different intent that may be harmful or deadly to others. My six year old knows never to move your hands from a cop's sight or reach for things if they tell you to put your hands up. There's no excuse for a kid twice her age to not understand this.
Yes, shoot first and ask childish questions later.
Thing is, the first move by anyone confronted by a gun is to dive for cover, right? Then… return fire?
Instead of standing in the open banging away?
Thing is, the first move by anyone confronted by a gun is to dive for cover, right? Then… return fire?
Instead of standing in the open banging away?
a reply to: Greven
Remove all the bickering and conjecture from this post, and one thing remains clear--there is a parenting (or child) problem in this story.
My son has two bb guns, one looks eeirly similar to a Colt 1911 pistol, and the other to an M4 rifle (as the anti-gun folks call them, a scary AR "assault rifle"). The minute I got home with him and before I opened the box (and numerous times after), I had the discussion with him about cases like this, where cops mistake toy guns for real ones, and that when he his playing with these, he needs to make sure NEVER to remove the orange tips, and NEVER point it at a police officer, and if one ever stops him while he playing with it, he is to do EVERYTHING the officer says so that he doesn't become a victim like this poor child in Cleveland. We have yet to have a problem, and we used to live where cops drove by all the time while he was out playing.
My point is this--it's apparent that this child was either never given proper guidance while playing with toy guns, or he disregarded it and did a culmination of many wrong things that led to this (waving it around in an apparently bad area, keeping it in his pants, reaching for it when the LEO allegedly instructs him to do otherwise, etc.). I get that it's easy to say that the boy was just 12 and that we shouldn't place an unnecessary burden of blame on him for his actions, but I'm sorry, my 11-year-old would have made better decisions than this (for starters, he wouldn't have taken it to a public park acting like it was real...nor would he be at said park without a parent there).
All that said, I do think that in all LE offices, there needs to be a renewed emphasis on only shooting if a gun is being pointed at you and the threat is imminent. I agree that someone just reaching for a weapon is not an imminent threat, but a potential one, and should be treated as such with even more vocal commands. But then again, I'm not an LEO, and so it's easy for me to sit here without putting my life in danger every day as my job and say things like this. If I were in the same situation, I can't say I wouldn't unholster my weapon and fire, too, because when it comes down to it, I will protect my and my family's lives by any appropriate means necessary. If someone, 12 years old or 50 years old, wants to act as if they are going to be a deadly aggressor, I sincerely hope that I won't hold back my actions past the point of no return.
Like I said before, it's a sad situation for everyone involved, but when the victim appears to have done everything possible to worsen the situation--consciously or not (I assume not)--then you can't sit here and blame the officer for taking what seemed to be appropriate action. But like someone else on here said, we're waiting for rec-center surveilance video, so wouldn't it be more appropriate to wait until we see if the officer's story is corroborated before we accuse him of unnecessary force?
Remove all the bickering and conjecture from this post, and one thing remains clear--there is a parenting (or child) problem in this story.
My son has two bb guns, one looks eeirly similar to a Colt 1911 pistol, and the other to an M4 rifle (as the anti-gun folks call them, a scary AR "assault rifle"). The minute I got home with him and before I opened the box (and numerous times after), I had the discussion with him about cases like this, where cops mistake toy guns for real ones, and that when he his playing with these, he needs to make sure NEVER to remove the orange tips, and NEVER point it at a police officer, and if one ever stops him while he playing with it, he is to do EVERYTHING the officer says so that he doesn't become a victim like this poor child in Cleveland. We have yet to have a problem, and we used to live where cops drove by all the time while he was out playing.
My point is this--it's apparent that this child was either never given proper guidance while playing with toy guns, or he disregarded it and did a culmination of many wrong things that led to this (waving it around in an apparently bad area, keeping it in his pants, reaching for it when the LEO allegedly instructs him to do otherwise, etc.). I get that it's easy to say that the boy was just 12 and that we shouldn't place an unnecessary burden of blame on him for his actions, but I'm sorry, my 11-year-old would have made better decisions than this (for starters, he wouldn't have taken it to a public park acting like it was real...nor would he be at said park without a parent there).
All that said, I do think that in all LE offices, there needs to be a renewed emphasis on only shooting if a gun is being pointed at you and the threat is imminent. I agree that someone just reaching for a weapon is not an imminent threat, but a potential one, and should be treated as such with even more vocal commands. But then again, I'm not an LEO, and so it's easy for me to sit here without putting my life in danger every day as my job and say things like this. If I were in the same situation, I can't say I wouldn't unholster my weapon and fire, too, because when it comes down to it, I will protect my and my family's lives by any appropriate means necessary. If someone, 12 years old or 50 years old, wants to act as if they are going to be a deadly aggressor, I sincerely hope that I won't hold back my actions past the point of no return.
Like I said before, it's a sad situation for everyone involved, but when the victim appears to have done everything possible to worsen the situation--consciously or not (I assume not)--then you can't sit here and blame the officer for taking what seemed to be appropriate action. But like someone else on here said, we're waiting for rec-center surveilance video, so wouldn't it be more appropriate to wait until we see if the officer's story is corroborated before we accuse him of unnecessary force?
a reply to: drneville
The police certainly have the power to make things up as they go along without question because they are above the law.
"Went for his gun"
What like I'll shoot him first with my toy gun
Such is the legal system in the US of A that if a white cop trying to save his neck contradicts five black onlookers then the story that's told in the official documentation is that of the cops.
Any video evidence that does not support the cops version of events goes missing and to be honest I don't even trust some of the video evidence that is present by the police today because we know from Youtube that anything can be doctored and was a lawyer allowed access to the original content and found something and went public then I don't think he would be a lawyer for much longer.
Logic says that the cop is lying and yet it gets repeated as if its gospel truth and yes you need gun control in the USA and need to start by removing them from the Police and that include the cattle prods and tazer guns they fire just for the laugh at both black and white youth.
The police certainly have the power to make things up as they go along without question because they are above the law.
"Went for his gun"
What like I'll shoot him first with my toy gun
Such is the legal system in the US of A that if a white cop trying to save his neck contradicts five black onlookers then the story that's told in the official documentation is that of the cops.
Any video evidence that does not support the cops version of events goes missing and to be honest I don't even trust some of the video evidence that is present by the police today because we know from Youtube that anything can be doctored and was a lawyer allowed access to the original content and found something and went public then I don't think he would be a lawyer for much longer.
Logic says that the cop is lying and yet it gets repeated as if its gospel truth and yes you need gun control in the USA and need to start by removing them from the Police and that include the cattle prods and tazer guns they fire just for the laugh at both black and white youth.
edit on 24-11-2014 by VirusGuard because: (no reason given)
a reply to: TruthxIsxInxThexMist
No, the cop couldn't, as that's not how they're trained. You aim center mass and fire until the threat is neutralized.
If you think, in a high-stress situation with a handgun at [insert number here] yards away, that a non-professional target shooter can do something like "aimed for the kids leg and just injured him," you don't understand defensive shooting at all. The age of a potential shooter is irrelevant--the deadliness of the weapon held by the 12-year-old is.
No, the cop couldn't, as that's not how they're trained. You aim center mass and fire until the threat is neutralized.
If you think, in a high-stress situation with a handgun at [insert number here] yards away, that a non-professional target shooter can do something like "aimed for the kids leg and just injured him," you don't understand defensive shooting at all. The age of a potential shooter is irrelevant--the deadliness of the weapon held by the 12-year-old is.
originally posted by: VirusGuard
Logic says that the cop is lying
not logic. just what youre choosing to believe
seems perfectly reasonable that the cop told the kid to put his hands up and instead he went for the gun that he tucked in his waste as soon as the cops pulled up.
logic says this kids parenting skills were lacking
a reply to: SlapMonkey
A ten year old holding a dinner knife could kill you if he is sitting down eating dinner next to you by stabbing you in the eye so what force should I use the next time I visit McDonalds and I tell a kid next to me to shut up and he looks like he didn't want to hear it.
Remember I might need to act in under a second to save my life so what should I do.
Killing people with a "Maybe this" or "Could be" is not an excuse if you get it wrong but cops are allowed to get it wrong time and again using lame excuses about what could be
The age of a potential shooter is irrelevant--the deadliness of the weapon held by the 12-year-old is.
A ten year old holding a dinner knife could kill you if he is sitting down eating dinner next to you by stabbing you in the eye so what force should I use the next time I visit McDonalds and I tell a kid next to me to shut up and he looks like he didn't want to hear it.
Remember I might need to act in under a second to save my life so what should I do.
Killing people with a "Maybe this" or "Could be" is not an excuse if you get it wrong but cops are allowed to get it wrong time and again using lame excuses about what could be
www.huffingtonpost.com...
i like how this is reported
A man who called 911 told dispatchers the boy was on a swing set and pointing a pistol that was "probably fake" and scaring everyone.
^^^^^so everyone picks up and runs with the 'it was probably fake'
but a little further down
The caller said the boy was pulling the gun in and out of his pants.
"I don't know if it's real or not," the caller said
can someone explain how 'i dont know if it is real' turns into 'it is probably fake'
very curious.
i like how this is reported
A man who called 911 told dispatchers the boy was on a swing set and pointing a pistol that was "probably fake" and scaring everyone.
^^^^^so everyone picks up and runs with the 'it was probably fake'
but a little further down
The caller said the boy was pulling the gun in and out of his pants.
"I don't know if it's real or not," the caller said
can someone explain how 'i dont know if it is real' turns into 'it is probably fake'
very curious.
a reply to: Grovit
So its logical for a 12 year old to reach for a plastic gun to shoot mr police officer dead ?
No sane 12 year old would do that so maybe he was not sane, yeah maybe he was doing drugs and wait a second because one of his friends was arrested with some dope on him and his white school teacher said that the child in question had been aggressive before now.
Tell you when them drug results come back from the DA you can guarantee he had something in his blood.
Is this what you want me to believe ? Think I will stick to my logic thank you
Well I don't know if the cop was a KKK member and was just looking for an excuse to try out his new police issue weapon and new he could kill a black kid and get away with it because the police are above the law and face no consequences if they screw up.
We all make mistakes, he made one and just like me and you he should be made to pay for the mistake but he won't and if it does even reach court then a few tears on the stand will be all that's needed to turn him into the victim
not logic.
So its logical for a 12 year old to reach for a plastic gun to shoot mr police officer dead ?
No sane 12 year old would do that so maybe he was not sane, yeah maybe he was doing drugs and wait a second because one of his friends was arrested with some dope on him and his white school teacher said that the child in question had been aggressive before now.
Tell you when them drug results come back from the DA you can guarantee he had something in his blood.
just what youre choosing to believe
Is this what you want me to believe ? Think I will stick to my logic thank you
can someone explain how 'i dont know if it is real' turns into 'it is probably fake'
Well I don't know if the cop was a KKK member and was just looking for an excuse to try out his new police issue weapon and new he could kill a black kid and get away with it because the police are above the law and face no consequences if they screw up.
We all make mistakes, he made one and just like me and you he should be made to pay for the mistake but he won't and if it does even reach court then a few tears on the stand will be all that's needed to turn him into the victim
edit on 24-11-2014 by VirusGuard because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: VirusGuard
No sane 12 year old would do that so maybe he was not sane, yeah maybe he was doing drugs and wait a second because one of his friends was arrested with some dope on him and his white school teacher said that the child in question had been aggressive before now.
yeah, ok buddy....
logic says he was probably an aggressive, insane, meth addict
whatever
maybe instead of these fake guns being made to look real except for the orange tip, the whole damn gun should be orange...you know, paint it up to look like a hunting jacket.
Here is a tidbit of factual information for everybody.
This incident happened in a part of town that has seen a recent rise in shootings, particularly black on black crime. This incident also happened in the part of town where 5 people were shot the same weekend.
Cleveland is considered to be one of the most violent cities in America, even out ranking Detroit this year. And most of the violent crimes are committed on the East side. Not all, but most.
This incident happened in a part of town that has seen a recent rise in shootings, particularly black on black crime. This incident also happened in the part of town where 5 people were shot the same weekend.
Cleveland is considered to be one of the most violent cities in America, even out ranking Detroit this year. And most of the violent crimes are committed on the East side. Not all, but most.
originally posted by: VirusGuard
a reply to: SlapMonkey
The age of a potential shooter is irrelevant--the deadliness of the weapon held by the 12-year-old is.
A ten year old holding a dinner knife could kill you if he is sitting down eating dinner next to you by stabbing you in the eye so what force should I use the next time I visit McDonalds and I tell a kid next to me to shut up and he looks like he didn't want to hear it.
Remember I might need to act in under a second to save my life so what should I do.
Killing people with a "Maybe this" or "Could be" is not an excuse if you get it wrong but cops are allowed to get it wrong time and again using lame excuses about what could be
Is your analogy intentionally ridiculous, or are you being serious? If the former, this is just an asinine, inflammatory response that deserves no real discussion; if the latter, you need to refine your skills at drawing parallels between events, as the two incidents described (the actual one and your make-believe one) have zero things in common. Joe Pesci can stab you in the neck multiple times with an ink pen, too...hell, I can kill you with a properly placed elbow to the base of your skull, but that doesn't mean everyone I walk past should attack me in fear for their life.
Please, spare us your immature rantings and let's talk reality, or just don't talk at all. Please.
a reply to: Grovit
Maybe kids want them to look real and to look hard and maybe the criminals will paint the guns orange if that's all that's needed.
You never know the kid could have been aspiring to be a cop and they all carry black guns
I see you didn't like my "Meth" theory well it's just of the theories being put forward in Furgeson about why a black youth would charge a cop from 150 feet away after first running away !
Did this cop have x-ray eyes to know that the tip of the toy gun didn't have a orange tip ?
Can I walk in the park and use maximum force (possible kill) a 12 year old with a ku-foo kick to the head because he has a toy gun and I said I thought it was real and he was a danger to other children in the park so I needed to act in a split second ?
Like hell would I get away with it but then again I am not above the law like the police today
maybe instead of these fake guns being made to look real except for the orange tip, the whole damn gun should be orange...you know, paint it up to look like a hunting jacket.
Maybe kids want them to look real and to look hard and maybe the criminals will paint the guns orange if that's all that's needed.
You never know the kid could have been aspiring to be a cop and they all carry black guns
I see you didn't like my "Meth" theory well it's just of the theories being put forward in Furgeson about why a black youth would charge a cop from 150 feet away after first running away !
Did this cop have x-ray eyes to know that the tip of the toy gun didn't have a orange tip ?
Can I walk in the park and use maximum force (possible kill) a 12 year old with a ku-foo kick to the head because he has a toy gun and I said I thought it was real and he was a danger to other children in the park so I needed to act in a split second ?
Like hell would I get away with it but then again I am not above the law like the police today
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