Merry Christmas !! Must Read!

Untill today, I was not even aware that such a controversy existed. I am astonished that people would have an objection to such a festive, joyous and colourful season where people celebrate being with their family and relatives and traditions. Actually I am not, there are too many miserable people today who feel pain and go green with envy, at the happiness of others.

Meanwhile, satanism is being welcomed in schools, in arts and in our movies. It's official: I'm in hell.

[edit on 15-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Cornell
No christain persecution? It's baloney?? then explain the following stories and links for me, please
Paper apologizes for 'Christmas tree' reference
web page

A story in Monday's paper referred to a tree that was lighted at Tuesday's Winterfest celebration as a "Christmas tree." In an effort to be inclusive, the city is actually referring to this tree as the "Community Tree."

Oh my god the poor christians, being persecuted so terribly!
I am being sarcastic of course, but this is not persecution. THe early christians, they were persecuted. The Roman state tried to wipe out their religion and prevent them from practicing it. The later pagans were persecuted by the christians and were destroyed and wiped out. The jews were persecuted by the russians in their pogroms. But now, the christians are not persecuted in a secular country where they are the majority, where their religious leaders call for the destruction of other peoples and 'sinners', and where they are allowed to operate religious schools, heck they are given money collected from the general public and its used to fund in part their religious schools thru vouchers. And practically every politician in teh coutnry is 'pro-christian' to say the least.

Dickens classic too religious for school
Principal cancels dramatization of 'A Christmas Carol'

Again, where is the persecution? Its a public secular school and the priniciple in it decided that it might not be appropriate to have a religious play.

In the latest skirmish over Christmas in America, a Christian group is not allowed to participate in Denver's annual Parade of Lights, because church members sought to sing yuletide hymns and proclaim a "Merry Christmas" message on their float.

However, the event, now in its 30th year, will include homosexual American Indians, Kung Fu artisans, belly dancers and, of course, Santa Clause.

Boo hoo. They don't get to have a float the promotes one religion over another in a city parade. They still get saint patricks day, they still get christmas as a federal holiday and they still get thousands of other cities that permit this. The city of denver deciding for some reason that a particular group doesn't get to participate is hardly persecution. And what are the chances that world nut daily is misreporting something here? What christian group is it? Have they incited controversy in other events? What was the specific detail of the float? Were they told that they could participate as long as they didn't sing particular songs or had a diffferent banner?

Kindergartners at a public school in Oregon were invited to bring cards to a Christmas party, but a teacher barred one student from distributing his holiday greeting because it mentioned Jesus Christ, prompting a lawsuit filed yesterday.

So a teacher did somethign stupid, and thats persecution? They're suing the school for christ's sake, they're not being persucted.

Are all of these claimed evidences of persecution going to come from world nut daily?

A parent of an elementary school student is upset with a teacher who replaced "Christmas" with "winter" in a carol to be performed during an upcoming concert.

Really? The kid is upset? Did they start crying?

Fearing they might offend someone, Red Cross stores in Britain have taken the Christian out of Christmas this year, banning any display of overtly religious decorations.

When they start going to christian towns and burning down their stores or removing their religious deocrations from their homes then they can say 'persecution'.

After months of negotiations with Northwest Elementary School failed, the American Center for Law and Justice, an international public-interest law firm, filed a lawsuit yesterday against the Leominster Public School District in Massachusetts. ACLJ contends Northwest told the Greskas their daughter could not share her Christmas book in class because it contained the story of Jesus Christ's birth, thus making it religious.

So the school isn't allowing christian myths in its lessons, or its not allowing any religions in their lessons? Did a student get to tell a story about ramadan? Or did some student get to tell everyone else about the hannukah miracle, or did an hindu student get to foist dipwali on the other students? Christians aren't being persecuted, they're being treated like everyone else.

The Constitution allows a Rhode Island city to have private religious holiday displays on its front lawn, a federal judge ruled yesterday in a suit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union.

So after all that complaing about being persecuted a christian religious holiday gets to be displayed in public place, a place maintained by taxes from and for everyone, jews, muslims, hindus, atheists, and everyone else, but not theirs? And the christians are being persecuted? By being emphasized above other religions?

Liek I said, baloney.

saint4god
Give me freedom of religion, not from religion.

But how can it be balanced? In a town where most people are, say, muslim, should the local fireplace not be allowed to put up a nativity scene but be required to put up a ramadan sign or somesuch? Or should the put up all of them? Or should the be allowed to put up whatever they want? Should they be allowed to pay out of pocket? Or is it being public space enough to say that no religion should be endorsed? Should everyone's tax dollars go torwards ramadan decorations?

I think that, since you can do whatever the hell you want, that religious stuff shouldn't be put into public display or 'vague' religious references could be allowed perhaps. But town hall shouldn't have a 'jesus saves' banner above it anymore than it should have a 'there is no god but allah and mohammed is his prophet' above it.

Originally posted by Cornell
However, the event, now in its 30th year, will include homosexual American Indians, Kung Fu artisans, belly dancers and, of course, Santa Clause.

What the...? Okay, who's got beef with Kung Fu and why? It's not enough to steamroll my religion, they've got to pick on my hobbies too? Fine, whatever, I'm used to fighting Let me clarify the distinction since we're throwing it into a catagory with homosexuality and Santa Clause. Kung Fu is "hard work". If you're saying you're against "hard work" then that's a problem with your own sedentary lethargies. Wushu is the martial art aspect and find no religion being taught there either. Now when you say American-Indians, are you speaking about people native to India who have re-established here in America or Native Americans and can't get the classifications correct? What do the other catagories have to do with religion at all? CHRISTmas is a Christian holiday, but doesn't mean it's exclusive to Christians. In fact, if you're Christian, you should be helping others celebrate it for its original intention too! I'm done with this one sentence in this article. Christianity represent!

saint4god
Give me freedom of religion, not from religion.

Originally posted by Nygdan
But how can it be balanced?

I may not be the one to give the best answers here but will give it a go...

Originally posted by Nygdan
In a town where most people are, say, muslim, should the local fireplace not be allowed to put up a nativity scene but be required to put up a ramadan sign or somesuch? Or should the put up all of them? Or should the be allowed to put up whatever they want?

Institutions (groups of people representing multiple viewpoints) should be able to represent themselves as they wish so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others. Broad and constitutional I know, but my best answer unless we're working with a specific case.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Should they be allowed to pay out of pocket?

Why not? It's your money, spend it how you see fit.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Or is it being public space enough to say that no religion should be endorsed?

The public (meaning people of that area) should be represented in that space, hence the name. To endorse nothing means people have no thoughts on the matter. I have difficulty believing this is true.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Should everyone's tax dollars go torwards ramadan decorations?

Tax dollars shouldn't be spent on decorations...period.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I think that, since you can do whatever the hell you want, that religious stuff shouldn't be put into public display or 'vague' religious references could be allowed perhaps. But town hall shouldn't have a 'jesus saves' banner above it anymore than it should have a 'there is no god but allah and mohammed is his prophet' above it.

The difference is between a negative and positive message. For example:

Positive message: Crest can help keep teeth looking clean and freshens breath.

Negative message: Colgate fails to impress three out of four dentists who have a degree in Dentistry.

[edit on 22-12-2004 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Cornell
However, the event, now in its 30th year, will include homosexual American Indians, Kung Fu artisans, belly dancers and, of course, Santa Clause.

What the...?

I think you misunderstand, there were some punctuation errors, instead of
" homosexual American Indians, Kung Fu artisans"
it was supposed to read 'Homosexual American Indian's Kung-fu Artisans", meaning metal workers practiced in the art of Kung Fu who belong to gay native americans. HTH.

The public (meaning people of that area) should be represented in that space, hence the name.

So then, and understand I don't have an especially strong opinion on this, you would be fine with "merry Christmas" decorations torn down in Detroit and replaced with "Happy Ramadan" and "There is no god but allah and mohammed is his prophet"? Or, to take it a step further, with no restaurants open during daylight hours during ramadan?

Tax dollars shouldn't be spent on decorations...period.

Ha, good point.

The difference is between a negative and positive message

Not sure about that. A government instituion displaying a nativity scene isn't necessarily saying that all other religions are bunk, but it does seem to be endorsing christianity.

Here's my take on it: I get Christmas shoved down my throat every year. Everywhere I turn I see CHRISTMAS... I don't mind too much, but it's been taken advantage of as a marketting tool and THAT is what gets to me. I don't like it! and I would feel the samw way no matter what holiday is getting shoved down my throat... it's not that we're trying to shut up the christians, just tone it down a bit and remember that other religions also have their holidays... how would you feel if Satanists had their way and were able to shove their religious holidays down your throat like that? I can tell you the christians wouldn't stand for it. Isn't a big part of christianity supposed to be "Do unto others as you would have them do to you"? Well, imho, we're being really nice about it, but noone's listening. I don't believe I have to pray to god to become one with him, and thus I don't think I should be forced to say the pledge of allegience in a school... I don't think ANYONE should have to, for that matter. Christianity should be passed down through generations, not forced by everyone who's so righteous.

That's MY view on it... and BTW, Merry Christmas to all of you! Especially the ones who can see past the consumer holiday part! Be with your family, and if you can't just remember that the rest of us are thinking of you and wishing you the best!

...and THAT is from a Humanist!

Originally posted by Nygdan
I think you misunderstand, there were some punctuation errors, instead of
" homosexual American Indians, Kung Fu artisans"
it was supposed to read 'Homosexual American Indian's Kung-fu Artisans", meaning metal workers practiced in the art of Kung Fu who belong to gay native americans. HTH.

Aha! That's enough to offend everybody! Thanks for clarifying, now we're making sense .

The public (meaning people of that area) should be represented in that space, hence the name.

Originally posted by Nygdan
So then, and understand I don't have an especially strong opinion on this, you would be fine with "merry Christmas" decorations torn down in Detroit and replaced with "Happy Ramadan" and "There is no god but allah and mohammed is his prophet"? Or, to take it a step further, with no restaurants open during daylight hours during ramadan?

I'm saying both Merry Christmas banners as well as Happy Ramadan banners if the place chooses. This is the constitutional side of me speaking. Also another point, I recall reading Jesus being amongst quite an eclectic crew in his teachings. Hate was not part of his message. I would be sad if restaurants were closed during times I wanted to visit. Case in point is one called Star of India, where they celebrate additional holidays. Even though I break down crying because of Chicken Vindaloo withdrawl, I still come back just about every weekend.

Tax dollars shouldn't be spent on decorations...period.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Ha, good point.

Thanks ^_^. If everyone must pay taxes, then it should be spend on something everyone absolutely supports. *cough education cough*

Originally posted by Nygdan
A government instituion displaying a nativity scene isn't necessarily saying that all other religions are bunk, but it does seem to be endorsing christianity.

Yes. If that's representative of the institution, that is to say the peoples in the building, then so be it.

Originally posted by Earthscum
... how would you feel if Satanists had their way and were able to shove their religious holidays down your throat like that? I can tell you the christians wouldn't stand for it.

"Hell"oween was shoved down my throat. Lost two cats to a Satanic cult in a neighboring city around this time. Not saying all of them are like that but a lot are. I had no choice but to 'stand for it' because at night it's hard to ID the guys running through your backyard bagging your pets.

Originally posted by Earthscum
Isn't a big part of christianity supposed to be "Do unto others as you would have them do to you"? Well, imho, we're being really nice about it, but noone's listening. I don't believe I have to pray to god to become one with him, and thus I don't think I should be forced to say the pledge of allegience in a school... I don't think ANYONE should have to, for that matter.

I think that's fair, after all it is your choice. Are there Christians who disagree?

Originally posted by Earthscum
That's MY view on it... and BTW, Merry Christmas to all of you! Especially the ones who can see past the consumer holiday part! Be with your family, and if you can't just remember that the rest of us are thinking of you and wishing you the best!

...and THAT is from a Humanist!

Merry Christmas!

[edit on 22-12-2004 by saint4God]