Why isn't Satan admired more?

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Bedlam

OR it's just a bunch of nonsense and god doesn't have any domain over how I live my life, because the Christian god doesn't exist.

How can you know?

Maybe your purpose is to give bad counter examples and lead people to salvation by being an unconvincing atheist.

True

www.dummies.com...



Maybe it is the prodding of atheist adversaries that prompts me to search my soul, so I wont be that person they hate so much,

Would the world be a better place without religion, history says no.

a reply to: JUhrman
It's such a fallacious argument... like saying god cant exist because he doesnt relieve suffering... you could say the same illogical thing about people. Humans must not exist, because if they did, there wouldnt be homelessness or starvation.

And with Job, it was a parable (like much of the bible) the point of which was to keep people faithful. They lived in a very superstitious age and needed an explanation for why bad things happen to good people. In their time, people would worship whichever god/gods seemed to benefit them. Even in Marco Polo's time, the Khan supported his pagan entourage because they wowed him with magnet tricks.

Most people dont understand that mythology is cause and effect: something happens, and people interpret it. People require explanation!

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I have many ways of thinking about god. The Buddhist version sounds pretty good to me (that god is more a place than a physical entity). But then again, all religion is assumption without evidence, so I don't subscribe to any of them.

Buddhism isn't even a theistic religion, it's a philosophy.

You are not the only one to have many way to think about god. Pretty much every person I talked with had a different view, even among the same religion.

For example I am mostly a pantheist and everything I read in Christian texts makes sense in that context. According to you the Christian god doesn't exists. According to me the Christian god is the same god as any supreme deity from a religion and represents the whole universe becoming conscious of its own existence through us, so you sound pretty silly when you say that god doesn't exist.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Yes I see the endgame of this spiritual banter. The endgame is that religion will finally be gone from humanity as more and more humans become educated are realize that these stories are all myths.

Wow, you really think most people don't know they are myths? I am not talking about the special brand of crazy Christians in the US though, they absolutely not represent Christian faith in general.

It's not because these stories are myths that you can't make them the source of inspiration for your own life and call yourself religious.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I feel it is much more inspirational without god and satan's involvement since it is about overcoming things that are beyond you.

I said exactly the same with other words but you are so confrontational you can't even see it.

originally posted by: Ridhya
a reply to: JUhrman
It's such a fallacious argument... like saying god cant exist because he doesnt relieve suffering... you could say the same illogical thing about people. Humans must not exist, because if they did, there wouldnt be homelessness or starvation.

What? You too completely misread me.

I wasn't making a point to prove or disprove god. I was saying the the argument used by atheists that:

"If there is death and pain and god doesn't prevent it god is evil"


is a logical fallacy because pain and death are natural things and that without them we wouldn't be here.

originally posted by: Ridhya
And with Job, it was a parable (like much of the bible) the point of which was to keep people faithful. They lived in a very superstitious age and needed an explanation for why bad things happen to good people. In their time, people would worship whichever god/gods seemed to benefit them. Even in Marco Polo's time, the Khan supported his pagan entourage because they wowed him with magnet tricks.

Most people dont understand that mythology is cause and effect: something happens, and people interpret it. People require explanation!

There is more than that, much more. There is superstition, and there is spirituality, something that has roots at least as far as the paleolithic age. They are not the same things. Superstitions tries to explain things that are not understood, and spirituality is a process of personal transformation.

Some people get stuck on the exoteric (superstitious) interpretations of all the religious and spiritual and they can't even understand that there was an inner teaching reserved for a few who really invested themselves in that self-transforming path.

All these stories show you what you need to do to achieve that transformation. That's their true meaning.

The people who wouldn't understand that or wouldn't be interested in that transforming process would be kept out of the secret, and would be treated by the priest caste as a flock to be led by fear (when needed) to give them moral guidance.

I am not saying it's good or wrong but it's what it is about, and if you think it's only about superstition and deceit you make a grave mistake.


It can be, but there is much more below the surface in all these texts if you make the effort to read them free from your own preconceptions and feeling of superiority.


I'm not religious, but I talked with many priests about what they believe and what they learn, and it would be very stupid of anyone to call them superstitious.

a reply to: muse7

Why isn't Satan admired more?

Well the Vatican has a pretty large following and how they handled all the child molestation thing, makes you wonder who they really admire.

originally posted by: JUhrman
Buddhism isn't even a theistic religion, it's a philosophy.

Yes, look how much nicer it is when you abandon dogma in your beliefs. Buddhism, to me, makes the most sense logically when viewing religions from the outside and possibly deciding on one to pick and worship. Most of the others come with too much baggage and probably ask you to deny certain aspects of science to believe them as true.

You are not the only one to have many way to think about god. Pretty much every person I talked with had a different view, even among the same religion.

For example I am mostly a pantheist and everything I read in Christian texts makes sense in that context. According to you the Christian god doesn't exists. According to me the Christian god is the same god as any supreme deity from a religion and represents the whole universe becoming conscious of its own existence through us, so you sound pretty silly when you say that god doesn't exist.

The Christian god violates laws of physics. I don't care how nice it sounds or how it relates to you, it's a physical impossibility. So unless there is some huge deception (which frankly is unlikely) then that god is a figment of man's imagination.

Wow, you really think most people don't know they are myths? I am not talking about the special brand of crazy Christians in the US though, they absolutely not represent Christian faith in general.

I think many Christians don't think too deeply about any of it and just believe it because they've been told its true their whole lives regardless if they are fundamentalists or not. That's certainly how I used to be when I was Catholic. Even when I dropped my denomination and just tried to be Christian and "follow the bible" it was just me not looking too deeply into the stories. Then when I did start looking into them, inconsistencies, logical fallacies, plot holes, and paradoxes popped out at me.

It's not because these stories are myths that you can't make them the source of inspiration for your own life and call yourself religious.

So that makes it ok to worship fiction? So if the story is inspirational, it is good to worship it? Hold on, let me go start the Church of Harry Potter.

I said exactly the same with other words but you are so confrontational you can't even see it.

It's a side effect from hating Christianity. I grew up Catholic and I've learned to hate the religion. It is running one of the longest cons on the human population out of any other con in history. Luckily people are waking up to it, science is showing that Christianity is mostly bunk. But hey, Christianity isn't special, I hate all Abrahamic religions equally and feel they are doing more to hold humanity back than bring it forward.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I grew up Catholic and I've learned to hate the religion. It is running one of the longest cons on the human population out of any other con in history.

It shows.

I have been raised as a catholic in a family with a priest which was also a nuclear physicist, and we learned to make the distinction between what the vast majority of people believe (sorry but most people aren't very critical) about Christian faith and what is the real message that is hidden below the surface.

I'm sorry you had bad teachers, but your vision of Christian faith and the Christian god is very simplistic and not representative of a subject priests and monks spend their whole life to explore and debate. You seem to assume every Christian has the same vision as the one taught to you. It's not the case.

a reply to: Bedlam

Your participation in a topic such as this is refreshing.

I think it's fascinating that our own concept of free will could co-exist with omniscience without conflict. The only conflict seen is more likely to point to our own limitations rather than being indicative of an actual contradiction.

I think one of the most interesting reads on the topic of the devil is Living with the Devil by Stephen Bachelor.

Most do not worship him because he is representative of the "bad guy" archetype. Those trapped in counter culture are more likely to do so.

Also, the meme about how many God had "killed" its always downright laughable.. He isn't responsible for mere millions of deaths, but for every occurrence of it in the past, present, and future. Far, far more than two million, and not quite as human centric.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
So that makes it ok to worship fiction? So if the story is inspirational, it is good to worship it? Hold on, let me go start the Church of Harry Potter.

Honestly, I have no problem with that, neither does the Church. They recently said that as long as you try to improve yourself it's all that matters.

a reply to: JUhrman

So why do you need the bible, churches, priests, deacons, and the pope? If the point is the message (which is essentially "do unto others as they would unto you") then why is all the rest of that baggage necessary?

a reply to: muse7

The Middle East has been in shambles because of Religion and their belief in an all powerful deity that supposedly will give 72 virgins to everyone that manages to blow up the most innocent people.

What religion is that?

When has Satan encouraged genocide?

When has God?

When has he encouraged blowing up innocent people because he will give 72 virgins to everyone that does so?

When has he prevented research on stem cells and other medical issues that could potentially save the lives of millions?

When has God encouraged or prevented any of this?


When has religion (just a concept of belief) done any of this without the people interpreting what was written by men before them?

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I grew up Catholic and I've learned to hate the religion. It is running one of the longest cons on the human population out of any other con in history.

It shows.

I make no effort to hide it. The Catholic religion has been conning society since its inception, luckily the child abuse scandal woke my eyes up to what that organization really is. Then when you realize that the Catholic religion is a con, you realize that the rest of Christianity is a con since all the dogma from all the denominations are based on Catholic dogma and belief. The Bible was assembled by Catholics.

I have been raised as a catholic in a family with a priest which was also a nuclear physicist, and we learned to make the distinction between what the vast majority of people believe (sorry but most people aren't very critical) about Christian faith and what is the real message that is hidden below the surface.

The real message is be nice to other people. It doesn't need to be hidden, it's pretty simple really. Burying that message so that only people who look deeply can figure it out is dishonest. That allows non-critical thinkers and bad people to exploit the vagueness for their own gain.

I'm sorry you had bad teachers, but your vision of Christian faith and the Christian god is very simplistic and not representative of a subject priests and monks spend their whole life to explore and debate. You seem to assume every Christian has the same vision as the one taught to you. It's not the case.

Um no. For one, I had great teachers (at least the non-religious ones). The thing is that I've always been a critical thinker and religion isn't made for people like me. It's made for the people who want to blindly accept things without evidence to support it. I mean at the end of the day, there is ZERO evidence for god's existence, no matter what form you have of him in your head. So I'm not going to believe in something without evidence. Give me the evidence and I'll sing another tune.

My opinion:
God is for those, which need a hierarchy, something I kind of do... I want someone smarter than me take care of all the things I don't have a clue about Also I want to live in a world that is part of something bigger, with misteries and unsolvable riddles...

Satan is an invented entity to keep those in line, afraid of their selfempowerment. That's all Satanism is about, if you take away the weird rituals both sides practise: Selfempowerment.

a reply to: Krazysh0t a reply to: zazzafrazz

OR it's just a bunch of nonsense and god doesn't have any domain over how I live my life, because the Christian god doesn't exist.

When your pet gets sick you take it to the vet. When your car needs attention you dawdle on off to the mechanic. In trouble? Search out a lawyer to help you through the mess you're in. You're sick? You take time for the doctor and do what he/she says to heal.

But - where do you take your soul? Where do you go to heal your soul?

Added note more on topic: It still amazes me people are so quick to follow evil - Satan - all the while denying the existence of God. And ya know why? Because it's easier.

peace

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: JUhrman

So why do you need the bible, churches, priests, deacons, and the pope? If the point is the message (which is essentially "do unto others as they would unto you") then why is all the rest of that baggage necessary?

1) You don't need it. It just still exists to this day.
2) It's a tradition from 2000 years ago. Do you need to celebrate Halloween, Christmas or Thanksgiving? No. So why are people still doing it? Because they enjoy it. If most people suffered from religion, it would have disappeared in this century. Figures shows it's still very alive and even growing. Maybe it answers to a need the modern society or science alone can't fulfill?
3) To each their own, it's been a long time since the Church attacked other religion. If anything, the Church today is the most modern and progressive monotheistic religion, trying to re-establish communication between all faiths, being open to science and trying to adapt itself to new challenges. It's still an old institution full of bad habits, but at least they aren't afraid to try to change that.


Basically the Church knows very well they aren't the only truth around anymore and they are OK with that. They focus more on what they have in common with other faiths/beliefs/philosophies instead on focusing on what differs, like some people seem to excel in.



You have all the rights to hate the Church and to believe that people are tricked to follow its teaching. But what if I told you many critical and educated individuals also make the choice to follow a proven spiritual path to give meaning to their life, be it buddhism, christian faith or even hinduism, without interpreting its teaching literally? Could you understand their choice and not consider they are deluded?

a reply to: silo13

I dunno. Give me evidence that a soul even exists first.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
The real message is be nice to other people. It doesn't need to be hidden, it's pretty simple really.

The real message is WHY, and that is more complicated. Otherwise it would simply be another case of "do as I say".

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
The thing is that I've always been a critical thinker and religion isn't made for people like me. It's made for the people who want to blindly accept things without evidence to support it. I mean at the end of the day, there is ZERO evidence for god's existence, no matter what form you have of him in your head. So I'm not going to believe in something without evidence. Give me the evidence and I'll sing another tune.

Define god first otherwise this discussion is pointless. I mean how YOU define god obviously. Because I don't think there is any clear definition in the Bible or anything so it will really help to understand why you think god cannot exist.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Well, I starred you for your honesty but there's no way I can address (what seems to me) to be your ignorance.

No soul? Wow. Ya know - not me or anyone else here on ATS could convince you - you have a soul - if you don't believe you do sooooo I'll not even step into that arena because I don't have the tools to take on that fight.

peace

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
The Bible was assembled by Catholics.

A Recovering Catholic myself.

Just to let you know that the Schism meant the Catholics were 'cleaved' from the 'orthodox' (meaning=original) . Technically The Greek orthodox Church is the historically the oldest European Church. Anyway pretty much the same thing just different Easter and Xmas dates