court ordered to pay for college....what do you think about that?

a reply to: Aazadan

and how many did you find that pay for you to go to trade school?

thats more what i was talking about. not getting your masters paid for

originally posted by: Grovit
a reply to: Aazadan
for me, i didnt have time to mess around...i just went out and got after it...

ive worked for 2 different companies that paid for me to go to school...

What year did all this happen and how old are you roughly?

originally posted by: Grovit
a reply to: Aazadan

and how many did you find that pay for you to go to trade school?

thats more what i was talking about. not getting your masters paid for

I answered this, the decline in Union Membership has decreased this activity, among employers, by a large degree.

originally posted by: boohoo

What year did all this happen and how old are you roughly?

im 37 now...the first company put me in class in about 1998.

the second company put me in class in 2011-2012

originally posted by: Grovit
a reply to: Aazadan

sounds like a bunch of # to me...
seems like an awful lot to go through to maybe get job...

for me, i didnt have time to mess around...i just went out and got after it...

ive worked for 2 different companies that paid for me to go to school...

It's just a difference in fields. The trades aren't being replaced by robots any time soon (probably need another 30 years for that) and you're not competing with skilled people in undeveloped countries for a couple dollars an hour. The US is a tech leader and the superstars get to work at Google and so on but the people lower on the totem pole that are programmers and such compete with labor that can be performed in less expensive countries. For example, as a web developer if you can get a physical job in LA will pay about $85/hour +/- 25 depending on company/experience but for the same job except that you work remotely will be closer to the $8/hour range if a salary is specified and the expectation will be closer to the $2/hour range if you're bidding on the job.

originally posted by: Aazadan
For example, as a web developer if you can get a physical job in LA will pay about $85/hour +/- 25 depending on company/experience but for the same job except that you work remotely will be closer to the $8/hour range if a salary is specified and the expectation will be closer to the $2/hour range if you're bidding on the job.

well then the smart thing to do would be to try and find work in LA for the $85 an hour or get a job in a different field.
what good is being a web developer if you work at pizza hut?
you know

originally posted by: Grovit
well then the smart thing to do would be to try and find work in LA for the $85 an hour or get a job in a different field.
what good is being a web developer if you work at pizza hut?
you know

Well, I don't work at pizza hut but I know plenty of people that do. I know a local pizza store where the two managers have degrees in Mathematics and Computer Engineering. The cooks have degrees in Physics, Computer Science, and Chemical Engineering. The drivers (the ones I know) have degrees in Mechanical Engineering, Software Engineering, and Computer Science. Is this possibly the best educated pizza shop in the country or merely indicative of the job market?

The reality is, people live where they live for various reasons it's not always as simple as just saying move to another area of the country. Maybe the top jobs shouldn't be available everywhere (I don't think such a thing is possible) but jobs for desirable degrees should be.

originally posted by: Aazadan

I know a local pizza store where the two managers have degrees in Mathematics and Computer Engineering. The cooks have degrees in Physics, Computer Science, and Chemical Engineering. The drivers (the ones I know) have degrees in Mechanical Engineering, Software Engineering, and Computer Science. Is this possibly the best educated pizza shop in the country or merely indicative of the job market?

The reality is, people live where they live for various reasons it's not always as simple as just saying move to another area of the country. Maybe the top jobs shouldn't be available everywhere (I don't think such a thing is possible) but jobs for desirable degrees should be.

so is it that people want the degree that they want and they want to live where they want and if they cant get a job then blame the economy, job market, and everything else...
im sorry man but im thinking something is wrong with them....if a dude has a degree in mechanical engineering and he his slinging pizza then he is doing something seriously wrong...

after reading through all your posts that is the impression i am getting...

you know people relocate for work all the time...they get after degrees and training that afford them opportunities to find work...
does not sound like the people you know have that.....

just being content with working at pizza hut while holding a mechanical engineering degree screams something wrong to me.....

i would be blasting resume's out by the truckload to all corners of this country and be out with the quickness if i was them....
screw going through school and dealing with all that entails only to sling hash every day.....

a reply to: Grovit

So the Rockeffelers created forced education to train future workers for their factories. Then social security made people dependent on the state. Now some fancy laws make it compulsory to pay for higher education? . Whatever for? Their is no guarantee that person will have a career when they graduate. But must keep the wheels of commerce greased. At the point of a gun

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

i just think some people live in a fantasy world....

you know where you can go to school and get a degree in the area of choice and then graduate and get a great paying job right out of the gate...
that is not how things work...
even with degrees there are only so many jobs in any given field to go around.....some jobs you wont get even with a degree unless you know someone or are greased in somehow...

i never really understood or even saw how the job market has dried up...i hear stories all the time about how the auto makers in detroit shut down and now thousands are out of work...
look at azadan...he says he knows people with engineering degrees and they cant find a job save for pizza hut...

i never really felt that the market was that bad.....granted i only have what i see to go on...what i see with my eyes and what i hear in the news do not match up.

i live in a very industrial area but a LOT of those jobs have gone away...shut down or moved to china....still though, if you look on craigslist under general labor or manufacturing there are tons of companies around here hiring for entry level all the way up to the skilled trades....

i here people say all the time that they cant get a job or if they can all there is is wal mart for 25 hours a week....

i just dont see it...

i know things have gotten bad but i do not believe it is as bad as some say it is...i believe 100% that there are people out there that simply refuse to work certain hours or certain jobs.....

let me also be clear that all work is respectable...work is work man...some just dont want to do it

there is a company around here that dos tech support for t mobile.....the only requirement is a diploma...now this is the place where people with no experience go..the place where the people that really dont like to work hard go....
its a sit down job but it is a revolving door. i and just about everyone i know has known someone that has worked there.

it is a no experience needed job..will train. its 2 weeks of PAID training...the training is 10 an hour. after training it is 12 an hour...training is 2 weeks....
you know what a great deal of people do? they go through the training and as soon as they finish, they quit...so they make a quick 8 hundo before taxes and then they split...

what the hell is that about?

granted most of these people are fresh out of high school with no real skills or prospects....
why do that though?
i would think a person that has just turned 18 and has no job experience or skills that lands a job paying 12 bones an hour would be in pretty good shape...
this is the type of evidence i see going on...these same people will piss through that 8 hundo and then bitch and complain about how they cant find a job....

the reality is a great deal of people dont want to put in the long hard day. they dont want to work at a place where they cant text and update facebook all day.

i saw it at the foundry every week. on monday there would be maybe 10-12 temps brought in...12 bucks to start through the temp service...make it to 90 days and get hired in and get a 2 dollar raise.
on monday there would be 10 people and on wednesday there would be 2 people left.....

i was training a guy once and on his second day he told me he had to hit the bathroom. i told him to go. after several minutes he was not back so i went to get him...in the bathroom was his hard hat and boots. dude just took off.....

this is the mentality of a great deal of people these days.

when i was in the metal lab there the senior engineers daughter came in to work...in the lab only...she had just graduated college with a degree in french....so she gets a french degree to wind up at the foundry with her father and the rest of the rough necks......good call


my brother is another bonehead....he just left a job cause of course it was hard. before that he had interviews lined up but he failed the piss test....so my mother said he has an appointment with the business school.
he wants to take 'mortuary studies' or some damn thing like that....i mean he is an idiot...

i know people die all the time but there are only so many funeral homes to go around. i cant imagine a job in that field is in too high of a demand...now maybe if he was planning to take his degree and go where the work is but he wont..he will stay right here because he will not leave his mommy...

i got him a job at the foundry...he was making almost 16 an hour when he was 18....he got fired...he was late and called off all the time....about 6 months after he was fired they called him back...he failed the piss test.
before that he worked at lowes....he was making like 9 an hour....he quit cause he was tired of his shift....

see the pattern?

if you want to work you can...bottom line.....
there is work out there and having a degree does not guarantee a job.

parents should not be forced to pay for tuition when the kid can do any number of things to screw it up and then the parents are out thousands.....

It doesn't say "PAY" for her college. It says "contribute" to it. The court's judgment would have been based on the parent's income, as is child support. Shame on anyone who doesn't want to help their child succeed.

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

16k a year is paying for college....maybe not 100% but it is still paying..
argue the language all you want. its already been discussed.
guess you didnt read the entire thread

a reply to: Grovit

No, I didn't read the article at the time of my post. Should I apologize for writing something you obviously didn't like?

$16,000 sounds like a lot of money to some people. What we don't know, is what the families incomes are. $16,000 might not be that much to them.

I have gone through this more than once with friends. The couple divorces, the father leaves, the child ages out and he no longer has to pay child support. When she wants to go to college, he raises holy hell, and says he shouldn't have to pay, and leaves all the financial burden on the struggling mother. The court steps in, looks at his income and financial information, and orders him to pay X-amount of dollars. In no way is this new. This one has gotten the media's attention for some reason.

Having grown up in a town with a large university, many of my friends parents told my friends they would "help" pay, provided they stayed at home and went to the local university. It's blackmail, (or something), but most obeyed. Those of us who wanted to go to another state, got financial assistance elsewhere. I did, too. The reason my parents (said) they wanted me to stay home was to avoid the expense of a dorm, meals, etc.

Adolescence has been extended to the age of 22 now, when the child is still in school, for this reason. They are still dependent.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting

Should I apologize for writing something you obviously didn't like?

$16,000 sounds like a lot of money to some people. What we don't know, is what the families incomes are. $16,000 might not be that much to them.

I have gone through this more than once with friends. The couple divorces, the father leaves, the child ages out and he no longer has to pay child support. When she wants to go to college, he raises holy hell, and says he shouldn't have to pay, and leaves all the financial burden on the struggling mother.

Adolescence has been extended to the age of 22 now, when the child is still in school, for this reason. They are still dependent.

no. i didnt ask you to apologize for anything.
i dont care if the parents make 16 million a year. they should not be forced to pay.

all about the poor struggling mother and the crappy father right??? figures
cause that is the only situation where financial issues come up huh....

always about the father....

you are legal adult when you turn 18.


and to your post about how its sad people dont want to invest in their kids future...what future do you speak of?
the future where people like azadan talks about that have a mechanical engineering degree and still work at pizza hut?
that future....

no thanks...i will pass on that investment.

what about the military as an option for getting school paid for?
let me guess, that is not an option anymore right?
go ahead and list all the reasons...

even though my brother is in the navy and he is in school which they are paying for right now...
so there are in fact options...again, people dont want to use them.....
they dont want to take responsibility for themselves....much easier to leave your parents house cause you dont want to follow their rules and then when you turn 22 and just decide you want to go to school, take your parents to court...

that is so much easier than being responsible i guess.

Anyway, Universities have turned into big business. Big industries. That is really where the problems lie.
Or has someone already said that? Lol.

Bye. : )

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

later.
thanks for contributing absolutely nothing...
you rule

a reply to: Grovit
The issue seems to be that there is no standard age of adulthood.
Personally I believe tertiary education should be free however when it is not I agree it us unfair to have parents forced to pay for it. However it us equally unfair for the potential student denied the opportunity as the patents earn too much for their child to get assistance but won't pay.
If there was a proper agreed legal age at which people assumed adult responsibility this wouldn't be a problem.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Grovit
The issue seems to be that there is no standard age of adulthood.
Personally I believe tertiary education should be free however when it is not I agree it us unfair to have parents forced to pay for it. However it us equally unfair for the potential student denied the opportunity as the patents earn too much for their child to get assistance but won't pay.
If there was a proper agreed legal age at which people assumed adult responsibility this wouldn't be a problem.

i thought there was a standard

legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...



Share: Cite / link:
Adult

A person who by virtue of attaining a certain age, generally eighteen, is regarded in the eyes of the law as being able to manage his or her own affairs.

The age specified by law, called the legal age of majority, indicates that a person acquires full legal capacity to be bound by various documents, such as contracts and deeds, that he or she makes with others and to commit other legal acts such as voting in elections and entering marriage. The age at which a person becomes an adult varies from state to state and often varies within a state, depending upon the nature of the action taken by the person. Thus, a person wishing to obtain a license to operate a motor vehicle may be considered an adult at age sixteen, but may not reach adulthood until age eighteen for purposes of marriage, or age twenty-one for purposes of purchasing intoxicating liquors.
-----------------------

so at age 18 you can sign up for the military
get drafted to the military
go to war
buy tobacco
travel to other countries alone
vote for the president
go to prison
enter into legal contracts

but you cant drink a beer or be financially independent from your parents??
hah
-----------------

it is very much unfair that if an 18 year olds parents make too much then they dont qualify for loan programs...that sucks big time.
the parents should not be required to make that up though.

pretty sad when it cant even be agreed upon what an adult is

a reply to: Grovit
That is exactly my point fir try he majority of things in the US 18 is considered adulthood. However if trying to get financial support to better yourself you are considered a dependent until well into your twenties. That is obviously grossly unfair to both patent and child.
In my corner of the world its even worse with a total mess of ages.
Criminal responsibility - 12
Age of convent - 16
Driving license - 17
Alcohol - 18 (but in practise 21)
Student loans I believe is still 24 they consider parents income.

originally posted by: Grovit
it is very much unfair that if an 18 year olds parents make too much then they dont qualify for loan programs...that sucks big time.
the parents should not be required to make that up though.

pretty sad when it cant even be agreed upon what an adult is

...and that is the point, the "Owners of Capital" DO NOT want this to be clear, here is why:

Up to the 1940 a person could get just about any job with an 8th grade education, but today you need a BA or Masters for entry level.

Why?

Because the government & big business figured out a long time ago that populations would certainly increase over time, but due to technology advancements, the availability of jobs would not expand to meet that population growth. There is a reason they don’t want people dropping out of high school and then at the same time, encourage those high school graduates to attend junior college, then a 4 year university and finally a Masters degree or PhD. They do so because it DECREASES the amount of people looking for full-time employment at the SAME TIME, chasing after jobs in a market that CANNOT provide employment for everyone looking for, able, qualified for and willing to work.

Look at it this way, when people could get a job with an 8th grade education, they went out and did it as soon as possible (opportunity cost). Then jobs got scarcer and the minimum requirement became a high school diploma, adding 4 more years of people NOT Looking for jobs within their cohort. Then jobs got even scarcer and the minimum became a 2 or 4 year college degree, adding an additional 2-4 years of people NOT looking for jobs within their cohort. Now jobs are really scarce and may require a Masters or PHD, adding an additional 2-7 years of people NOT looking for jobs within their cohort.

Basically the way the economy has been structured TODAY, we are looking at young people within their cohort whom are NOT looking for full-time, career type, employment for 6-15 YEARS, beyond K-12, all while they finish more school!!!

This has been done ON PURPOSE, to keep the number people seeking employment lower. In 1920 after 8th grade everyone who was able, went out to look for work and typically found it, that’s simply NOT possible today under any circumstances. Easily accessed welfare will soon add another 1-3 years of people within a cohort, to those “not seeking employment”. Not to the specific detriment of society, but to continue to mask the illusion that jobs and upward mobility are still available. So, if someone gets a graduate degree and collects 1-3 years of welfare on top of than, that’s ONE less person competing for scarce jobs. The extra years of welfare are then acting in the same way to the larger economy as the increased minimum education levels for employment, with the real goal of decreasing the number of able-bodied applicants out on the job market at the same time. This cohort of people "not pursuing full-time employment" also includes those in Prison, Government pensioners/SSI and the disabled on government assistance. If everyone needed to go out and “get a job” or “start their own business” TODAY, as many “capitalists” and "entrepreneurs" suggest these days, we would all be making 0.25 cents a day.

With big business being hell bent on replacing living workers with machines, such comments as those in this post, miss a subtle point that ONLY the children of the wealthy will have the opportunity to become TRUE experts in such fields. Let me clarify, through the prior 20th century, a poor kid who studied hard could become a lawyer, engineer, accountant, even a doctor sometimes with the right combination of hard work, savings, scholarships, family support, etc, OR they simply went into the trades and learned on the job WITH pay. HOWEVER, in engineering and technician curriculum’s today, times are changing, which now favors kids whom have access to expensive software and hardware to “experiment” with and “practice” on before entering college or a particular training program. So when they finally get to college or to their first apprenticeship, those whom have had lots of free time to “play” with robotics and programming, outside of the classroom, WILL CERTAINLY outpace their less privileged peer, who flips burgers part-time, to pay rent and school expenses.

Before 1990, 40% of teenagers had part-time jobs while in school. This is a relevant statistic because today only 20% of teenagers in school have part-time jobs. Teens at one time made up a sizable portion of the workforce and such has changed dramatically in current employment practices.

Although not my primary point, I do think there is plenty of evidence that teens today do not have the opportunity to get part-time jobs, BUT at the same time, the wealthy ones are beginning to develop advanced skill-sets that COULD be MORE helpful in their future adult careers, than say, “working at a taco stand after school”. Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are very good examples of people who made use of their free time and access to money, without having to EVER labor for pay when young, and ultimately developed specialized skills that could not be learned at a MINDLESS part-time job or even in formal schooling. In the end, they leveraged that free time learning, into long term careers.

Those whom are going to be rendered jobless by automation/robotics/tech are going to be the least likely to be able to pick up these pieces in the coming era of traditional jobs destruction. Its going to IMPOSSIBLE for the poor to go back to school, get a masters degree in robotics, in full-time-only engineering programs, that strongly discourage their admitted students from taking part-time jobs, while favoring students who have both the money and free time and don’t EVER work at an unrelated job to their majors, who then buy expensive robotics hardware/software to experiment with outside of class.

I believe “rich kid job mobility" is going to be a bigger problem for regular folks, beyond even what the previous "rich kid" pedigree typically brought in the 20th century. This unfettered access to endless money and time to “explore” academics and hands-on work, with NO consequences, is going to END job mobility of any kind for the lower and middle classes, even those whom have met the typical required higher education and work experience standards. Its going to be a superstar only job market, with no room for middle of road folks.

originally posted by: boohoo

Up to the 1940 a person could get just about any job with an 8th grade education, but today you need a BA or Masters for entry level.
thats simply not true....you dont need a BA or masters for entry level....i have neither and im not entry level...

Then jobs got scarcer and the minimum requirement became a high school diploma
and with a diploma or GED you can still walk onto all kinds of jobs....i know because i have done it.....i dont have either but on every single application and resume i have ever sent out i said i graduated in the year i was supposed to...so really, the reality of the situation is you dont even have to have a diploma....just tell them that you have it. i dont recommend people do this though....i think everyone should finish high school...i had to drop out. my dad was in jail so i dropped out to work so i could keep the house we were in....just saying you dont NEED a BA or masters to get an entry level job....simply not true


With big business being hell bent on replacing living workers with machines, such comments as those in this post, miss a subtle point that ONLY the children of the wealthy will have the opportunity to become TRUE experts in such fields. Let me clarify, through the prior 20th century, a poor kid who studied hard could become a lawyer, engineer, accountant, even a doctor sometimes with the right combination of hard work, savings, scholarships, family support, etc, OR they simply went into the trades and learned on the job WITH pay. HOWEVER, in engineering and technician curriculum’s today, times are changing, which now favors kids whom have access to expensive software and hardware to “experiment” with and “practice” on before entering college or a particular training program. .

^^^^^this is not true either....i am/was not a wealthy person. didnt graduate high school. i have no college degree.
i can operate and program cnc....i had exactly zero experience with this before i started at the foundry. i was a mechanic for a long time. i had experience in machine shops and operating heavy equipment but i had never even laid my hands on a cnc.
the foundry sent me to school....they paid for all of it. they paid me my hourly wage while i was in class. they paid me per mile on my car......

before i was on the cnc i was in the metal lab....before that i was doing inspection. i learned all of it on the job. when i was in inspection they posted a job opening for the metal lab and i bid on it. of course i got it.
in the lab i was running a spectrometer. i was doing microscopy. i was running a carbon analyzer.
i was running tinsile tests and charpy's.....
i didnt know anything about any of that...

they didnt put an advert out looking for someone with experience and/or a degree. they hired little old drop out me...and you know what...i kicked ass in every position there.

you might be surprised at what hard work and determination to learn will do for you.

i got hurt about 2 years ago so that put a wrench in future plans but i was just getting into cmm at the same company. they were going to send me to school for that as well....i wasnt going to pay for it.
i was signed up for lean management and six sigma classes as well. all on their dime.

so yeah....i know what i am talking about because i have experienced it.....im not so sure about you...you talk a good talk but what you are saying is not 100% true. if it were i would be working at mcdonalds or some entry level job somewhere and thats not the case. i have not been in a position like that since i was 18.
did it all with no diploma.


in the end i am not telling people not to graduate or not to go to college. i would never so that.
if people are able to go to college then i think they should. i just dont think parents should be forced to foot the bill.

i also want it to be recognized that some of what you have been saying is not true.....
youre telling people you need a degree for an entry level job and that is not the case.
azadan pointed out, he knows a mechanical engineer that makes pizza......so, his degree is doing nothing for him.

a degree is not a requirement for people to do well in the real world, no matter how much you say it...