THIS JUST IN : New radar data indicates other jets on MH17 course before crash

a reply to: FlyingFox

Oh no of course not the Ukraine Government is all but innocent for everything else blame Russia.

originally posted by: Walsh

The consultancy provided a snapshot representing the readings taken by a radar station located in Russia’s Rostov, near the Ukrainian border, shortly before and about 20 minutes after the MH17 crash.

What this image shows is 20 minutes of recording of the airspace before and after the shooting down of MH17. The course of MH17 is shown in purple while the numerous little blue "T" shaped objects in the circle show the radar return of one or, possibly two, aircraft which either do not have a transponder or which have not switched it on. Either way, since we know that the Novorussian Resistance did not have aircraft, and since we know that the Ukrainians have denied that they had any aircraft anywhere near this area at that time, and since we know that had this been a Russian aircraft the US/NATO AWACS and satellites would have picked it up and presented this damning proof a long time ago we can come to the only possible conclusion: the Ukies and their US/EU patrons are lying, the aircraft seen on the radar are Ukrainian, no Buk missile was involved in the shooting (though I personally believe that one was used to cue the Ukrainian aircraft to MH17) and that MH17 was shot down by a combo of gun and missile fire from one or two Ukrainian aircraft.

a reply to: maghun

You know the irony of the images of those magazines that you just posted? the westren news outlets on the first day since the crash of the flight blamed it upon Putin, just look at the headlines on them.

Russian Gangsters killed our loved ones say British Families

Surely these families must have inside knowledge.

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

And if you actually read, instead of putting words in people's mouths, you'd find that most people on ATS have never blamed Russia, but have said that it was most likely a case of mistaken identity by people that had poor training on the system, and thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian military plane.

And quite a few people outside of ATS stopped blaming Russia fairly quickly as well.

a reply to: Zaphod58

most people on ATS have never blamed Russia,

No of course not thats why there are at least countless of other threads blame and proclaiming how Russia is to blamed on almost everything. Or that how the Russian economy is about to fall.

I have being here for quite a well now and haven't seen this much russophobia then anywhere else, i am not suggesting all do have it, but some.

it was most likely a case of mistaken identity by people that had poor training on the system, and thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian military plane.

Again your blaming the attack on the Rebels even though there is no evidence that they were the ones behind it, the fact that the Ukrankian government used this accident to gain the support of the nationalists says a lot.


I am also quite surprised that there are some that would be defending the Ukrankian government no matter what, may i ask why do you even bother defend a government that the west put into power?

The current Ukrainian government has done nothing but the opposite for the Ukrainian people.

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

Of course they're going to take advantage of it, they're still politicians after all, and they're the same the world over. It doesn't matter what language they speak, they're all going to take advantage of everything they can use to their own advantage.

And there are plenty of people blaming the West/NATO/Ukraine too for everything under the sun.

a reply to: Zaphod58

One last thing as a reminder. I have being following Ukraine since the Pro Euporean Union protests, i tried to be fair and sincere while i was looking into both sides of the allay, i just realized that the Ukrankian/EU side hate the truth.

They hate the truth when its being posted about there beloved Ukrankian government and whom funded them, no doubt you still believe in that fake I am Ukrankian video to now.

Lets not forget whom funded it that nonsense.

And there are plenty of people blaming the West/NATO/Ukraine too for everything under the sun.

Since after what the west did in Libya left it in ruin why should NATO/ America/EU Get a freeride on Ukraine? the Euporean Union are desperate for broken states.

a reply to: Zaphod58

and thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian military plane.

Rebels captured only one TEL. Is it enough for "action"? What about the firing codes? Hacked?

To understand what happened to MH17 we first need to understand the capabilities of the Buk
M­1 surface to air missile system. The keyword here is system. The Buk consists of a number
of independent components which operate in unison but which are typically situated at a
distance from one another. The networked components provide medium range defense against
aircraft, cruise, and ballistic missiles. The core system components consist of a primary search
and target acquisition radar, a central command post, and one or more Transport Erector
Launchers with Acquisition Radars which are known by the acronym TELARs.

A few people are saying that the plane had 30mm bullet holes all over it so these would had been from a jet fighter at that height.

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

irony

The US military operates with an annual budget that exceeds the combined budgets of all other military forces worldwide. The US armed forces are awash in money, personnel, and equipment. In addition to overhead imagery available from reconnaissance satellites and from a drone squadron reported to be operating in Ukraine, the US military also fields satellites with infrared detectors as part of the Defense Support Program. These IR sensitive satellites are expressly designed to give immediate warning of any missile launches. These satellites are reported to be sufficiently sensitive that they are able to detect hot spots within forest fires.

The citizens of the world must pay attention to the fact that the US has not provided any reasonable means to assist in the identification of the perpetrators of the MH17 shoot down.

a reply to: maghun

A single TELAR is plenty for them to be able to fire missiles. It's designed to operate as a single vehicle, or as a group.

As for the codes, the BUK is designed to be extremely easy to operate, which is why it doesn't have an IFF system, or any other systems that would have told them it wasn't a military aircraft at al.

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien

But now we have our brilliant just resigned former Foreign Minister Timmermans making a slip of the tong :

"You know we have found a passenger with an oxygen mask on his mouth, so he had the time to do that"

this means nothing..
whats to say a stupid rebel didnt find the oxygen mask near the corpse and put it on, just for kicks?

I remember reading that bodies were found naked, because the pressure and velocity against their bodies as they were falling tore their clothes off..

so how would a flimsy rubber banded oxygen mask stay on?

a reply to: Zaphod58

- And how likely it is that it was the Separatists and not the Ukrainians who had far more BUK installations?

- Why don`t the Americans come up with proof, they had ships close by and a satellite which are surely capable of detecting missile launches ?

- And how about Kiev releasing the air control tapes ?

- If it were the Separatists, why is Kiev the one who obstructs the investigation over and over again and the Separatists are the ones giving full corporation ?

Any wonder most Dutch don`t believe it were the Separatist or Russia ?

The more the sage continuous from shelling, fighting and too dangerous to work we have been seen going from the beginning the less the official story gets trusted.

Our new Foreign Minister Koenders as just one example :

Koenders fears heavy fighting around the crash site the upcoming weeks

Minister Bert Koenders fears that in the upcoming weeks the fighting in Eastern Ukraine could intensify. And that would be bad for the place where the wreckage of the MH17 lays, he told tonight in a debate at the Dutch Parliament.

Du tch

And that`s typical for how it has been going on since it happened. The Dutch people are getting more and more frustrated by the day because of this is crap, use Google translate to see the remarks about the so called Belingcat evidence (and watch at the thumbs up and down also).

Dutch

a reply to: Zaphod58

TEL, not TELAR...

en.wikipedia.org...

BUK is designed to be extremely easy to operate

Just push the "red" button and MH17 will come down?

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

The Separatists had at least one BUK system that they had captured, known to be in that area.

Missile launch satellites don't detect the minor flare of a SAM launch. They're designed to detect theater class ballistic missiles and above, not a tiny heat source like a SAM. If they were set to detect that low of a heat source there would be constant false alarms.

The ATC tapes were handed over to the investigators. It's up to them to release them AFTER they have a chance to analyze them. They've already released at least part of the tapes in the last few months.

They turned over the data that the investigators asked for, when they asked for it. The Separatists removed portions of the debris, and damaged other portions of it, making it useless to investigators. They've cooperated to an extent with investigators, but neither side has been as open as they should be for this investigation to be completed quickly.

a reply to: maghun

Actually, it was a TELAR.

There are pictures taken in the afternoon of july 17 showing a camouflaged BUK TELAR in Torez. That BUK is said to be in the hands of the separartists. Civilians in the nearby village reported that a BUK has fires missiles that afternoon.

The separatists are said to have captured their BUK TELAR after an attack on a Ukrainian airforce base in june. According the the Ukrainian airfoce, the BUK was not operational, but the separatists claimed to have the BUK repaired. It is not clear who coul dhave provided the crew for the BUK, because operating such complex weapon-system is no that easy. It requires training and practise of a whole team.
It is confirmed by various pictures taken in the days before the crash, that there was at least 1 BUK TELAR in the surroundings of Torez.

According to a Facebook message of an advisor of the Ukrainian minister of interal affairs, the separatists would have transported a BUK TELAR over the Russian border in the night of july 17 and 18. In the early hours of that friday-morning, Ukrainian intelligence is said to have taken a video of a TELAR on a trailer on the main road near the city of Krasnodon, between Torez and the Russian border. The TELAR would have missing at least 1 missile in the launcher-system.

www.zero-meridean.nl...

a reply to: Zaphod58

You clearly haven`t been reading the Dutch MH17 news on a daily basis, but that`s no surprise.

It`s too much for me to link it all and translate it, but just look at the remarks of the last link I have posted and you know what has happened...I give you a clue, it wasn`t the Separatist who have been obstructing...apart from a small percentage of fools (every country has them), you won`t convince the ordinary Dutch people about that for sure.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

And with something like this both sides are going to be problems. The Separatists don't need to obstruct anymore. They removed substantial portions of the wreckage in the first days after it happened. They're on video loading large pieces up into trucks and hauling them off somewhere.

And no, I'm not going to sit and read a bunch of news links every day, as I usually have other things to deal with, and fairly limited time for a lot of reading.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Detailed expert analysis of the MH17 downing

There are two links with PDF :

Links

a reply to: maghun

How easy is the Buk system to operate? See following from serving/retired Royal Air Force serviceman with hands on experience.

Having operated and maintained Russian SAM systems, I can guarantee that if you just want to shot down an aircraft at high altitude with any of their high end systems without worrying about what you are shooting at in a non ECM environment they are very easy pieces of equipment to operate. The Buk is not a new piece of kit (its been kicking around for 30 years) and was widely used by the Soviet Union before 1991 and in Russia and Ukraine afterwards. The system were designed to be operated by conscripted / reservist crews and thus are fitted with a high level of automation (to shot anything down with one of these systems all you have to do is get the system's tracking radar 'on target' and press the fire button as soon as a 'Target in engagement zone' indication comes up and the system will do everything else. While the equipment was also designed for rapid replacement of defective equipment which is very modular in nature and like most Russian equipment is built like a brick sh!thouse. Due to the fact that it was operated by conscripts for best part of 30 years, there will be a sizable pool of people in eastern Ukraine (rebels) who will be able to operate it and most likely a number of ex warrant officers or extended servicemen who where the personnel would normally fixed the things who would be able to maintain it. The main question I would ask is where did the missile system come from! Was it taken across the Russian border by the
Russians (or from the Crimea) or was it captured by the rebels from Ukraine stocks in the disputed region.

www.pprune.org...

Reply to individual that posted in response. The individual just like yourself was fixated by the seemingly complexity of the equipment.

Most of those consoles on that kit are system status indicators, if they are green you're good to go. The rest are controls for the displays and signal processing system for the radars or manual overrides to allow the system to be operated in the face of ECM or minor equipment system failures. If any of those systems break, you will need an experienced technician to fix them and if you're operating with friendly air forces and in an ECM environment experienced operators are a must, however the actual engagement sequence of this system from the layout of the kit is very likely to be very similar to that of most other Russian mobile SAM systems as they are all heavily automated. To engage a target once the system is fully run up, three or four actions by the man of the left after he has picked up the target on the search radar, three or four by the guy on the right hand console, missile away. Seeing that the kit has been kicking around since the mid 1980's it is very likely that there are plenty of ex Soviet / Russian / Ukrainian armed forces personnel about on the rebel side who could operate this system to a standard that would allow an aircraft at 33,000 ft to be engaged. The question is where did the missile system come from?

www.pprune.org...

The poster on PPRuNEs knowledge is from such units as Royal Air Force Spadeadam in the UK where examples of Soviet/Russian air defence systems are operated for threat training purposes.

www.raf.mod.uk...

www.raf.mod.uk...