Ukranian army invades Donetsk ... Putin too busy with his own image in Forbes

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

that is quite interesting but it doesn't negate the fact that the US still took the opportunity to install very specific people into the government and then ultimately get one of their old CIA informants (PoroshenkoWikileaks elected as president. Poroshenko might have also gotten wind that Yanukovich was planning this and relayed this to his handlers.

also Yanukovich being responsible for the snipers doesn't make alot of sense as they were shooting both protesters and guards without discrimination.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Tsurfer2000h

Because most of your posts defend and are Pro-US government, regardless of what US does at home and abroad. Your information and views have no credibility with me.

I think your information is wrong.
I think your opinions are wrong.
I think you are wrong on just about everything.

Now if you will excuse me, I am now starting a thread about peanut butter, please visit me and be wrong there too.

a reply to: Flatcoat

I'm sorry, but the "Gaza Defense" just doesn't cut it anymore.

And where did I say anything about Gaza?

The reality is war is hell and you do have civilian casualties it has nothing to do with where it is fought. Amazing how the ME seems to always pop up in a Ukraine thread that has nothing to do with the ME.

It's just to convenient. How many people do you think would still be alive today if Kiev hadn't attacked the east? Maybe resorted to diplomacy first?

That is a question you would have to ask Russia as it because of them this conflict has happened. Ukraine didn't just attack the east until Russia started the problems there.

As far as I can tell, the rebels haven't attacked Kiev yet so they can't claim defense.

The last time I checked the separatists held area was still part of Ukraine so that comment about Kiev is funny. So Ukraine shouldn't be able to fight an armed foreign backed insurgency in their own country...you know the one named Ukraine where the military is trying to protect the integrity of their country from foreign invaders.

So they have the right to do what they are doing militarily. Sorry if you can't understand that fact.

a reply to: WineWithIce5

Because most of your posts defend and are Pro-US government, regardless of what US does at home and abroad. Your information and views have no credibility with me.

Well that really hurts my feelings...not really.

I think your information is wrong.

Well then all you have to do is prove it's wrong...it should be easy if it's so wrong.

I think your opinions are wrong.
I think you are wrong on just about everything.

Well everyone has their opinions. And I am glad you know me well enough to say everything i say is wrong, but can you prove that statement, because I don't think you can?

And so you can't refute what you say I am wrong about, but instead go for personal attacks so it looks as though your going to fit right in with the other Putinista's we have on ATS.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

that is quite interesting but it doesn't negate the fact that the US still took the opportunity to install very specific people into the government and then ultimately get one of their old CIA informants (PoroshenkoWikileaks elected as president. Poroshenko might have also gotten wind that Yanukovich was planning this and relayed this to his handlers.

In fact do you care to show me which cable it is that shows he is a CIA plant?

Here you may also like to see what the US had to say about Poroshenko when Yanukovych was president.

[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/05/29/the-not-very-nice-things-u-s-officials-used-to-say-about-ukraines-new-president/[/ur l]

But hey feel free to provide the evidence you say is out there, and also know Poroshenko isn't even the candidate that the US backed so your assertions are a fallacy.

You may want to actually use a link that works.

also Yanukovich being responsible for the snipers doesn't make alot of sense as they were shooting both protesters and guards without discrimination.

Why they were trying to remove him from his cash cow with his impeachment...people do funny things when they are looking at losing what they use for their own personal gains.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Edit: f%@#$* it just google "poroshenko wikileak". im tired of trying to figure out how to link this.

i didnt think the negative opinions of poroshenko expressed by a few people mattered but ok..

and i dont doubt that there was a distaste with yanukovich. there was a good reason for protests. but again it doesn't change the fact that the US installed their own government after yanukovich fell.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

And where did I say anything about Gaza?

The reality is war is hell and you do have civilian casualties it has nothing to do with where it is fought. Amazing how the ME seems to always pop up in a Ukraine thread that has nothing to do with the ME.

I called it the "Gaza Defense" because the Israelis use it quite effectively to justify the murder of civilians, and your use of the term "human shield" to justify the murder of civilians in Ukraine is straight out of that playbook. The truth is that it's just a clever catchphrase invented to justify wholesale slaughter. "We had to bomb that school because the *-insert badguy here-* hid guns there."

That is a question you would have to ask Russia as it because of them this conflict has happened. Ukraine didn't just attack the east until Russia started the problems there.

Yes, I know "It's all Russia's fault"...Tell me, how did Russia start the problems in the east?

The last time I checked the separatists held area was still part of Ukraine so that comment about Kiev is funny. So Ukraine shouldn't be able to fight an armed foreign backed insurgency in their own country...you know the one named Ukraine where the military is trying to protect the integrity of their country from foreign invaders.

Again, who attacked who first? I'm talking bullets and bombs here, not the decision to form a separate state.

So they have the right to do what they are doing militarily. Sorry if you can't understand that fact.

Explain that "fact" to the families of all the dead innocents...see if they can "understand" you...

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

also check out this youtube video. plenty of evidence and proof.

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: Flatcoat

I called it the "Gaza Defense" because the Israelis use it quite effectively to justify the murder of civilians, and your use of the term "human shield" to justify the murder of civilians in Ukraine is straight out of that playbook.

That doesn't mean it is the term for every conflict.

So your saying the separatists aren't using human shields?

www.themoscowtimes.com...

childrendeservefamilies.com...

The truth is that it's just a clever catchphrase invented to justify wholesale slaughter. "We had to bomb that school because the *-insert badguy here-* hid guns there."

And yet it is the truth not just some catchphrase used by Ukraine.

Yes, I know "It's all Russia's fault"...Tell me, how did Russia start the problems in the east?

Wow, are you really asking that question?

www.huffingtonpost.com...

www.france24.com...

www.bbc.com...

And you might remember Putin admitting the men with no insignia were Russian soldiers who just happen to be the same one's shown in eastern Ukraine at the beginning of this conflict.

Again, who attacked who first? I'm talking bullets and bombs here, not the decision to form a separate state.

That would be the separatists when they took over government buildings in the east with the help of Russian soldiers that were in uniforms without insignias...the same ones used in Crimea.

Explain that "fact" to the families of all the dead innocents...see if they can "understand" you...

And explain to the families of dead Russian soldiers why their family members are dead fighting in a war that Russia isn't participating in. See if they can understand that.

Here is one for you...Explain to the families of those killed by separatists and thrown in a mass grave because they didn't do what the separatists wanted them to do?

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

also check out this youtube video. plenty of evidence and proof.

How about this...instead of me going back over something that has been thoroughly discussed enjoy the read.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And no that youtube video is an opinion from the uploader and in no way is evidence and proof of anything...sorry.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Neither are the links you posted. It was just hearsay with some really bad dialogue.

"Ukraine," he replied curtly. Then he smiled: "Actually, there's no such nationality as Ukrainian. That's an Austria-Hungarian deception. We're Russian. We're all Russian. And this land isn't Ukraine: it's Novorossiya - and we will defend it."

"One of them replied: 'Ah, there's no tricking an old wolf, is there?' I'm sure they've been sent here and paid to make revolts and calamities."

my sides. how do you buy this garbage? at least there is video evidence of radical groups seizing government buildings and burning people alive. and you believe the story that looks like it was written by some D list script writer?

Your first link is in Ulrainian/Russian so I could'nt read that one,unfortunately.In the second link I find that Russia's Foreign Affairs ministry is demanding an independent investigation into the shelling that killed school-children.Pavel Astakhov blames the Kiev government..so,just wondering about your headline,which is dragging Putin into this specific matter..and taking a snarky swipe at the man.But then I suppose it is in vogue these days,to take swipes at Putin.Just so I can understand better,how exactly does this specific thread pertain to Mr.Putin? aside from the questionable thread title-how is he involved with this specific matter? Your links don't elucidate a specific link,and your headline does'nt tie in,for me,with the whole gist of the article-which is about Ukrainians killing Ukrainians.

originally posted by: yorkshirelad
a reply to: bjarneorn
I notice the distorted language yet again. Since Donetsk is a city inside the country of Ukraine the native army (ukranian) cannot "invade" it. It's outsiders that "invade". So the invaders are the Russian military that are "not officially" there .......

Well, since the "separatists" held a referandum and decided on "separation" ... as a counter to the rest of Ukraine "separating" ties with Russia. Either both are right, or both are wrong ...

You can't chose "who" has the right to separate ... either both have, or neither have.

You might say, this is a "moral" conflict ... since NATO took Kosovo from Serbia in this manner ... so do Russians have the right to remove Donetsk and the rest from Ukraine. You can't chose right or wrong, based on personal preferences.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

Neither are the links you posted. It was just hearsay with some really bad dialogue.

So are you able to refute anything in those links or are you just going to complain about the dialogue in it?

Oh and btw Russia admitted to having soldiers in Ukraine.

www.rferl.org...

Hard to refute the facts.

my sides. how do you buy this garbage? at least there is video evidence of radical groups seizing government buildings and burning people alive. and you believe the story that looks like it was written by some D list script writer?

So you didn't look at the thread I linked that thoroughly discusses this situation, because if you had you would see what you think your video shows is not the whole story...but I see you aren't interested in the truth and just want to blame Ukraine for everything Russia has started in the east...

BTW can you even refute anything I have linked for you, or are you just going to say it is wrong without backing your claims.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

well im not really sure that there is anything to refute. i mean it seems that every time someone has something to say to these journos or anytime a new armor column rolls across the border their cameras start to malfunction or something because i never see any video of it.

as far as Russians in Ukraine helping the separatists i don't really need evidence. im sure they are there for a wide variety or reasons. and i support them. i don't know why you have this idea that Russia caused this but based on what actually happened its not the case. nor does Russia have anything to gain from a destabilized Ukraine. Ukraine was in Russia pocket, but even if yanukovich was going to make a run for it i still don't support EU or NATO expansion. the west wouldn't support Russian expansion into mexico or Poland. just as the us didnt just stand by and let russia place missles in cuba. thats ludicrous.

seems like the only reason you turn a blind eye to what the west does and condemn russia is because you dont like Russia. im not with that. i take evidence and decide based on critical thinking and objective reasoning who the aggressors are. when i see the west expanding east and backing violent regimes like they did in georgia and ukraine its not hard to tell who is doing what.

but i suppose if you are an aggressive person that supports an aggressive government then who am i to say you are wrong. i guess its just a matter of perspective. but my perspective is that people shouldn't be hurt because of the agendas of the rich and powerful.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: tsurfer2000h

as far as Russians in Ukraine helping the separatists i don't really need evidence. im sure they are there for a wide variety or reasons. and i support them. i don't know why you have this idea that Russia caused this but based on what actually happened its not the case. nor does Russia have anything to gain from a destabilized Ukraine. Ukraine was in Russia pocket, but even if yanukovich was going to make a run for it i still don't support EU or NATO expansion. the west wouldn't support Russian expansion into mexico or Poland. just as the us didnt just stand by and let russia place missles in cuba. thats ludicrous.

but i suppose if you are an aggressive person that supports an aggressive government then who am i to say you are wrong. i guess its just a matter of perspective. but my perspective is that people shouldn't be hurt because of the agendas of the rich and powerful.

Thats funny. Russias leaders Want ukraine for its natural resources. They took Crimea for its port as well from Ukraine. to add insult to injury russia had a vote for independence in crimea that was NOT RECOGNIZED by ANYONE BUT RUSSIA AND HER ALLIES.

ALso Putin and his government ARE RICH AND POWERFUL WITH THEIR AGENDA AS WELL. SO according to your definition they are also part of the problem.

a reply to: Flatcoat

If you shoot at somebody and then hide under your wifes skirt, It's okay to torch the skirt. and while your there, smell my balls.

originally posted by: yorkshirelad
a reply to: bjarneorn
I notice the distorted language yet again. Since Donetsk is a city inside the country of Ukraine the native army (ukranian) cannot "invade" it. It's outsiders that "invade". So the invaders are the Russian military that are "not officially" there .......

I hate hate hate to repeat it but will do that once again............Ukraine as a country ceased to exist on Feb 22nd of this year.

Twice people of Donbass have held elections and voted for separation from an unofficial state.

Coming back to topic, Ukrops have violated the ceasefire agreements completely now by a) repeatedly using heavy artillery on civilian areas b) using aviation bombing on civilian areas c) moving troops to fortify positions that were supposed to be left alone after Sept 5th agreement.

Except for Mariupol and North of Lughansk, there is fighting going on everywhere. Officially ceasefire is now over.

Russia needs to up the ante here and establish a land corridor all the way to Crimea in next few weeks at most.

NAF should also procure aviation fighter and bomber jets via arms dealers and third parties to add sharpness to its war fighting capabilities. Even old Mig-21s and Mig-23s will come real handy to keep Ukrops away from the skies and also bomb dug in positions of Junta forces. That would have the common Ukrops come and out desert their battalions in order to save their own lives than be maimed and massacred for the cause of the fascist Junta and its impractical ambitions.

Kiev should focus on saving and maintaining the other half west of Dniper now. Once Russia intervenes, they will lost a major chunk of western half also.

So this is the Russian invasion I keep hearing about from the BBC is it.

These 40-90 tanks are in fact from Kiev and not Russia and are attacking the east.

Looks to me like Putin needs to let them throw the first punch and then after wiping the blood from his nose teach those responsible a lesson in war.

tsurfer200h

So you have something that backs your assertion that the US sent military weapons to Ukraine, because they haven't

I knew something was wrong when you left my thread but I find you here playing the same old tune where someone gives you a link to the $5bn invested by the USA in the Ukraine to finance the take over of power and you carry on asking for absolute proof of every nut and bold involved.

The USA is in such a rush to give weapons to its friends (bit like drugs and you need more once you start) that it even managed to nearly kill members of ISIS the other week as the plane drop of weapons missed the PKK (another terrorist group according to some) and hit the leader on his head.

This might be the reason the ISIS leader is reported as being killed today but ISIS did say thanks for the new weapons anyway.

Would you like to explain why the USA is poking its nose into the affairs of Europe or do you think its because the rising amount of trade between Europe and Russia was cutting the USA out ?

Germany has already told its great friend and poodle dog of the USA known as the Britain to sling its hook if it does not like it and I personally hope they do the same with the USA who brings nothing but banker bribes, behind the doors blackmail and trouble to Europe.

We are quite capable, if we wanted to of building our own tanks so the ploy used in the middle east simply won't work here and whilst it might be a gamble on the part of the USA these gambles have a habit of going wrong and I think many people in the USA can see that this Ukraine campaign has turned into a three legged horse.

a reply to: Flatcoat

I called it the "Gaza Defense" because the Israelis use it quite effectively to justify the murder of civilians, and your use of the term "human shield" to justify the murder of civilians in Ukraine is straight out of that playbook. The truth is that it's just a clever catchphrase invented to justify wholesale slaughter. "We had to bomb that school because the *-insert badguy here-* hid guns there."

I could not had said that better and just wanted to give you a star