What is the evidence for evolution?

a reply to: AvoidBadCompany

Does our existence and intelligence require a creator?
How much more intelligent must the creators mind be?
So intelligent, it too requires an explanation for its existence?
If God doesn't require a creator to explain its existence, why do we?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Couple of things.

Evolution is not about showing how life started or how sentience happened. We don't understand what makes sentience sentience yet.

a reply to: AvoidBadCompany

So why is your Christian creation myth any more accurate or realistic than say Mesopotamian, Hindu, Egyptian, the various North or South American native creation myths, the multitude of Asian creation myths, Norse, Greek and on and on and on?

a reply to: Noinden

I know that evolution explains the diversity of life and not its origins. The guy said creation demands a creator. I was making the point that if that's the case then his creator would also need a creator.

Cause and effect. Without a cause there is no effect and without our Creator there is no creation.
An eternal being maybe hard to comprehend but not inconceivable. Enery is everywhere, even in a Single grain of sugar. Does Light possess energy? Is light created or does it evolve.
Creation is design, design must be created by a creator.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Little too complex for some minds I think

a reply to: peter vlar

the issue of time seems to be the only issue when its compared to other theories.

just a thought...I once had an experience suggesting that the Flag of the United States was created on October 20, 2011 and that all other theories are just an illusion. I have other examples of anomalies with time but unrelated to evolution, so I thought perhaps...what if these guys are seeing shadows and none of it's real absolutely.

but if you say that your clocks are accurate and that evolution is fool proof, who am I to argue.

I was turned off to evolution as a freshman in high school when my science teacher stated evolution no longer occurs...I wish I could remember his name so I can rip on him.

anyway...if those atomic clocks are as accurate as you say, then we should be able to detect and measure evolution occuring in real time (with the use of other ultra accurate tools of measurement as well)....correct?

it seems that would be the only real evidence...measuring evolution as it occurs.

a reply to: michaelbrux

Your teacher was wrong. Evolution certainly does still occur. School teachers are usually towing a party line (I've got two mother in laws (same wife, both parents remarried) who are teachers, so I best tread carefully). There are some amazing teachers, and then some who are there to get a paycheck. Yours sounds like one who did not want to teach

I demand evolutionists use super dooper accurate measuring devices and show me evolution as it occurs.

then tell me what something, anything you choose, will become.

and please prove that what you are measuring is evolution and not anything else.

a reply to: michaelbrux

You can demand all you like I will counter demand that all Creationists make their claims in ancient Hebrew, and show that they have Jehovah on their side by burning bushes, rains of frogs etc. If lightning happens its Thor however and you are screwed

originally posted by: michaelbrux
I demand evolutionists use super dooper accurate measuring devices and show me evolution as it occurs.

Of course you do because why bother learning how evolution actually works when your 9th grade teacher said it doesn't occur anymore and instead create an asinine parameter to prove evolution to you that has nothing to actually do with evolution. Being able to measure time, which is nothing more than a man made frame of reference, is not a part of nor does it have anything to do with modern evolutionary synthesis. You were claiming time is not a constant, or in your words absolute and compounded that error by insisting the evolution is dependent on time or its passage and that the theory can not survive if its determined that time is not a constant. For any of your statement to be true the onus lies on you to demonstrate that time is in flux and not a constant.

My reference to the degree of accuracy with atomic clocks has nothing to do with evolutionary theory, it was a point of reference in how we determine the ages of archaeological, anthropological and paleo-anthropological finds and determine their ages. Not as a way to measure evolution itself. What we can measure however, and compare those results with the constancy of time that you seem to deny the existence of, is the rate of mutations in an organism and trace backwards how far back particular mutations began, when lineages split from one another, things of that nature.

then tell me what something, anything you choose, will become.

Evolution isn't about predictable changes. Mutations are random and dependent upon niche and environment among many other variables. Its not remotely possible to determine what an organism may evolve into or even if it will survive the next 10,000, 100,000 or 1 million years. Its never been postulated as, presented as or been a part of modern evolutionary synthesis.

and please prove that what you are measuring is evolution and not anything else.

Evolution is not measurable, I just don't understand why you keep coming full circle to evolution being dependent on time or time being a driving force let alone part of the theory. Pleas get yourself a library card and read a few books. I'd be happy to give you a reading list.

ETA- if you actually want to learn about evolution as it is occurring I would recommend looking into Dr. Richard Lenski's E. Coli experiment which is a continuously evolving experiment that is valuable for peer review and independent testing by any reputable researcher or laboratory.

a reply to: Noinden

i'm not a creationist...this is only about evolution and evidence of it.

it should be easy enough for today's scientists and the people that come to this site to show and prove with all the accurate tools of measurement that exist and show a direct link between a biological process in a school of fish and a geological phenomenon like climate change for the purposes of predicting which fish will survive and which will die off and why.

you're saying that evolution exists and that its a fact, so you should be able to isolate the evolutionary process in the fish and link the process to something external to the fish but in its environment such as a changing jet stream. same example reworded for clarity.

how will the fish change...bigger fins, smaller mouth, change color...given a change in the environment.

evolution is always on so measuring it will be a simple task. and you get the Nobel Prize.

a reply to: peter vlar

isn't that just nice and tidy...evolution is random and not measurable. at the very least you should be able to isolate a chaotic process and say...there is Evolution.

ive been looking for something to shoot at, so I will find for Dr. Lenski's book.

FYI...anything that has to do with change is subject to Time....that is inescapable. without time how could something change, if something changed what was it BEFORE...

a reply to: michaelbrux

Do you understand the timescale for evolution for more complex creatures? Do you get prediction is rather hard for something that is based on mutations, and I am not talking X-men here?

Evolution exists. I will use an example from recent human (and I man Homo sapien here) evolution. Milk tolerance. Sometime around 5000 to 10000 years ago, we developed the ability to digest milk as adults (I'm not one of these fortunate people). It coincides with the domestication of cows. It also coincides with the populations that had domesticated cows.

If I was a scientist sitting 20 000 years ago, how would I predict that sometime 10 000 to 15 000 years in the future my descendants would begin to drink the lactations of a creature that was wild (and unknown to me)?

You want "super accurate" predictions? Science does not work that way, that is divination, augury, and other magical tricks. We can do predictions, within a range of probability.

Evolution can be used other ways however. Forming relationships, telling the past, tracking migrations etc.

Genetics and evolution can go together to help work out ways of beating genetic diseases. One would be some forms of breast cancer associated with the BRCA1 and BRCA2 genes (and I know about this as I've got done work in it). Ways of silencing the defective gene (or more likely one that goes with it to cause the cancer).

Like I said I do not think you understand how evolution or science work, and making unrealistic demands is like me going up to the pope and saying "Ok pontiff, I need you to prove god exists, so call his wrath down on someone for me ok?". That's not how faith works, also I'm a Pagan, so I don't really go around asking others religious leaders to show how bigh their spiritual dicks are.

a reply to: michaelbrux

You claim not to be a creationist? Perhaps you are into intelligent design then? Because you are gods awfully hostile to evolution based on these posts.

I again say you really don't seem to understand science, especially evolution, or perhaps you are just belligerently hostile to it?

originally posted by: michaelbrux
a reply to: peter vlar

isn't that just nice and tidy...evolution is random and not measurable. at the very least you should be able to isolate a chaotic process and say...there is Evolution.

And as I explained, we can measure rates of mutation and get a look back In time but it doesn't mean we can account for future variables. A good example would be the genetic bottleneck that occurred after the Toba event 70,000 BPE where the entirety of the human population was reduced to as few as 10,000 Homo sapiens and was one likely factor in the extinction of Neanderthal as a seperate identifiable species.

ive been looking for something to shoot at, so I will find for Dr. Lenski's book.

myxo.css.msu.edu...

FYI...anything that has to do with change is subject to Time....that is inescapable. without time how could something change, if something changed what was it BEFORE...

And as I stated in my earlier posts, we can look back by learning about the rate of mutations in an organism and see where and when lineages diverged and when traits came into being. We have even identified through this method that there is an as yet unidentified hominin species that is a common ancestor of HSS, HSN and HSD. www.natureworldnews.com...

Subject to time is pretty general and even at that not anywhere near the same as dependent upon.

i'm going to state clearly what I think Evolution is:

biological organisms have an innate process that is connected/linked to environmental processes and contributes to their long term survival by causing beneficial iterative changes in the organism in response to changes in its environment; the study of that innate process or the process itself is Evolution.

now...you tell me what is evolution in one or two sentences.

a reply to: peter vlar

let me ask this...are these people studying evolution or are they studying things that imply the existence of Evolution?

they do call it a Theory and not a Law for a good reason you know.

just want to make sure we are on the same page.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: michaelbrux

Do you understand the timescale for evolution for more complex creatures? Do you get prediction is rather hard for something that is based on mutations, and I am not talking X-men here?

Evolution exists. I will use an example from recent human (and I man Homo sapien here) evolution. Milk tolerance. Sometime around 5000 to 10000 years ago, we developed the ability to digest milk as adults (I'm not one of these fortunate people). It coincides with the domestication of cows. It also coincides with the populations that had domesticated cows.

If I was a scientist sitting 20 000 years ago, how would I predict that sometime 10 000 to 15 000 years in the future my descendants would begin to drink the lactations of a creature that was wild (and unknown to me)?

You want "super accurate" predictions? Science does not work that way, that is divination, augury, and other magical tricks. We can do predictions, within a range of probability.

Evolution can be used other ways however. Forming relationships, telling the past, tracking migrations etc.

Genetics and evolution can go together to help work out ways of beating genetic diseases. One would be some forms of breast cancer associated with the BRCA1 and BRCA2 genes (and I know about this as I've got done work in it). Ways of silencing the defective gene (or more likely one that goes with it to cause the cancer).

Like I said I do not think you understand how evolution or science work, and making unrealistic demands is like me going up to the pope and saying "Ok pontiff, I need you to prove god exists, so call his wrath down on someone for me ok?". That's not how faith works, also I'm a Pagan, so I don't really go around asking others religious leaders to show how bigh their spiritual dicks are.

an interesting side note to your prescient example of lactose persistence is that not only did humans slowly develop this, the cattle we were deriving our milk from have been found to have changed ever so slightly to produce milk that was more palatable for Neolithic Europeans o more easily digest as they developed the gene that allowed for lactose persistence to occur past adolescence as we are all born with lactose, the enzyme that allows infants and toddlers to digest mothers milk...

a reply to: peter vlar

Evolution is so nice...its was wonderful for the cows to have done that.

you'd think the evolutionary change would have been one to cause humans to stop drinking their milk.

that is definitely unexpected and random.