Vatican thinker brands US woman's suicide 'wicked', page 2

posted on Nov, 4 2014 @ 11:04 PM

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a reply to: Maigret

I don't want to tell you what to do but I think you should tell the mother. This kind of message gives great confort to those left behind. You were gifted with his embrace and I think it's great

LoveSolMoonDeath

posted on Nov, 4 2014 @ 11:04 PM

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double post delete please

edit on 2014 11 4 by LoveSolMoonDeath because: (no reason given)

Maigret

posted on Nov, 4 2014 @ 11:18 PM

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a reply to: hashtagzog

What makes suicide an 'evil' act? Where in the Bible does it say specifically that?

Also, where in the Bible does it say that suicide is 'deeply offensive' to God?

The Bible does say: James 4:14 ESV 'Yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes'.

Maigret

posted on Nov, 4 2014 @ 11:22 PM

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a reply to: LoveSolMoonDeath

Thank you... I would tell her if I could find her! But I wonder too if she would believe me - or her church?

I can promise you, I hold the memory of those feelings as close as I can to my heart, because it gives me so much hope in this harsh world. The feeling itself fades somewhat, but not the surety I got from it.

Tangerine

posted on Nov, 4 2014 @ 11:34 PM

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originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: Klassified

We need to change the definition of sin. Absolitely ridiculous to call assisted suicide wicked unless your morality is solely based on a 2000 year old book.

I like the new Pope but most of the rest of the Vatican leaders are as backwards as ever.

Sin is purely a religious concept meaning an offense against God. Stop believing and it vanishes.

tavi45

posted on Nov, 4 2014 @ 11:39 PM

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a reply to: Maigret

It does not say so explicitly. Remember the bible is highly up for interpretation. The Catholic Church and many less progressive Protestant churches believe it is because it is self murder or a defilement of God's temple (human beings) or a variety of other reasons. It's up for debate but the conservative view is that suicide is a sin of the highest order akin to murder or blasphemy.

DeathSlayer

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 04:32 AM

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a reply to: Klassified

Assisted suicide and suicide should not be accepted in our world. There is medication available to control the worst type of pain known to man.

If I may...... currently there is an ongoing case in Belgium where a murderer has requested the state that he may take his own life because he can no longer control his anger AND the courts are seriously considering this. The amendments before courts for assisted suicide are piling up for consideration.... soon maybe people will be able to kill themselves if they are unemployed or maybe because their partner divorced them. Where does it end?

In the Netherlands and Switzerland (There are many others) assisted suicide guidelines are so in the grey that elderly people simply need to beg their local doctors to receive the OK to kill themselves.

Suicide is killing oneself. One of the ten commandments - Thou shall not kill (actually it means murder). Suicide is murder of oneself. The last act committed while alive was killing oneself - there is no repentance!

I have seen miracles occur just like millions of other people have. Maybe there would have been one in her life before she died but now we all will never know.

tavi45

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 04:44 AM

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a reply to: DeathSlayer

As I said. The only arguments against assisted suicide are from a religious point of view. There is no realistic secular reason against it.

Thanks for backing me up

This is why people are turning against religion. They are starting to see how it's mostly a fabrication designed for social control. It doesn't show itself as clearly anywhere else as it does on this issue. Denying one the right to decide what to do with ones life is about as controlling as it gets. Self-murder, what a joke.

All he has is the usual slippery slope arguments you get from religious zealots, mentioning the ten commandments, and the fact that those who commit suicide are depriving us of potential miracles.

So anyone have real objections to assisted suicide based on reality?

DeathSlayer

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 05:05 AM

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originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: DeathSlayer

As I said. The only arguments against assisted suicide are from a religious point of view. There is no realistic secular reason against it.

Thanks for backing me up

This is why people are turning against religion. They are starting to see how it's mostly a fabrication designed for social control. It doesn't show itself as clearly anywhere else as it does on this issue. Denying one the right to decide what to do with ones life is about as controlling as it gets. Self-murder, what a joke.

All he has is the usual slippery slope arguments you get from religious zealots, mentioning the ten commandments, and the fact that those who commit suicide are depriving us of potential miracles.

So anyone have real objections to assisted suicide based on reality?

Suicide show fear and doubt.
Someone who has given up.
Negative though pattern for others.
Not strong enough to show others but shows others on how to give up.

How about that? Is that good enough reasons for you?

Is this what you would like to show your grandchildren? On how to give up?

I say act like an adult and when it comes to die NATURALLY then it will happen.

edit on 5-11-2014 by DeathSlayer because: (no reason given)

Ceeker63

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 06:08 AM

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I believe it is a fundamental right of every human to decide if taking their own life is OK. Their should not be any laws making in illegal to commit suicide. We are the ones that are in pain and know what is right in our own bodies. Government should stay out of private lives.

FlyersFan

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 06:09 AM

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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Granite & Klassified - The International Tribunal of Crimes of Church and State is a well known HOAX. There is no ITCCS and there was no tribunal, etc etc.

That being said, the Vatican person said it was evil for this person to commit suicide. No surprise. However, I think it is evil to make people stick it out to the very bitter pain-filled end. It is evil to withhold suicide to those who are massively suffering as this woman was. And I would bet that while Pope Francis can't condone the suicide, he wouldn't come out and be so negative about it.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 11/5/2014 by FlyersFan because: mod tags

FlyersFan

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 06:15 AM

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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Assisted suicide and suicide should not be accepted in our world. There is medication available to control the worst type of pain known to man.

That's simply not true. I suggest you sit bedside with a person dying of cancer as hospice gives them the pain meds that no longer work for them. And you should sit bedside of a person dying of brain cancer as they have seizure after seizure and end up in endless pain and severe disability. Experience that a few times before you make statements denying people the right to end their life in dignity.

Assisted suicide should be accepted and available worldwide. Period.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 11/5/2014 by FlyersFan because: mod tags

WarminIndy

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 06:34 AM

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originally posted by: Klassified

A senior Vatican official has condemned as "wicked" the assisted suicide of Brittany Maynard, an American woman suffering from terminal brain cancer.

Seriously!? Wicked!?

"We do not judge the individuals but the act itself is to be condemned," said Ignacio Carrasco de Paula, the bishop who heads the Vatican's Pontifical Academy for Life, a semi-autonomous Church think-tank which studies ethical issues.

We know you are suffering horribly, but you mustn't end it yourself. You must let the cancer do it for you, or you have committed a wicked and sinful act. You will offend god! Where's my *rolling eyes emoticon*.

"But this is where the error lies: to commit suicide is not a good thing, it is a wicked thing because it is saying no both to one's own life and to everything which signifies respect for our mission in this world and towards those closest to us."

Do I really need to address this statement? "No to ones own life", "respect for our mission", and "those closest to us"? I'm speechless. Literally.
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Maybe the woman had a right to do so, but it makes me fear now, is there going to be a future in which people who are ill or disabled will become expected to do the same thing?

Why is this woman celebrated by the media? Think about it, yes, she was young and pretty and suffering from a terrible condition, but of all the suicides that occur every day, is the media using this as an attempt at subtly introducing the idea into the populace that society should accept it and then expect it?

I am a 100% disabled person, what will that mean for me in 20 years when it does happen that people feel I should not continue on and be expected to do the same thing?

Was this really to garner sympathy for her cause, or just subtle propaganda? I'm not saying anything against her right to choose, but how is the media handling it, really? After all, in another era I would have been called a "useless bread eater" so is your response that you approve of it or that deeply you feel she was expected to because it ensures more resources for more healthy individuals?

Deeply, deeply, are you celebrating her right to choose or deeply, deeply do you feel it is justified to allow a sick person to off themselves because the world has too many people?

Whether or not it was her right to choose and whether or not it may or may not be wicked, the point is this, why the media sensation? The seed has now been planted, in my opinion.

WarminIndy

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 06:43 AM

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originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Assisted suicide and suicide should not be accepted in our world. There is medication available to control the worst type of pain known to man.

That's simply not true. I suggest you sit bedside with a person dying of cancer as hospice gives them the pain meds that no longer work for them. And you should sit bedside of a person dying of brain cancer as they have seizure after seizure and end up in endless pain and severe disability. Experience that a few times before you make statements denying people the right to end their life in dignity.

Assisted suicide should be accepted and available worldwide. Period.

I just worry though, have we started down the slippery slope of acceptance toward expectation? That is the only thing I am afraid of.

My grandmother was dying of liver cancer and we took care of her at home. She was in great pain, yes, I know what it was like at the end of her life when the morphine was no longer working and she had a strong will to live. How I wished that she would just lower her will at times, but we made sure she was as comfortable as possible. If she had asked me to assist her, I could not and would not have done it.

When someone assists, that means the person has to psychologically overcome their own emotions at that moment in order to do it. I know how she suffered, but for the person suffering, it isn't just about them in that situation. If we say there should be assisted suicides, think about the person who is asked to assist. How do we address the psychological issues that would arise?

DeathSlayer

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 07:45 AM

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originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Assisted suicide and suicide should not be accepted in our world. There is medication available to control the worst type of pain known to man.

That's simply not true. I suggest you sit bedside with a person dying of cancer as hospice gives them the pain meds that no longer work for them. And you should sit bedside of a person dying of brain cancer as they have seizure after seizure and end up in endless pain and severe disability. Experience that a few times before you make statements denying people the right to end their life in dignity.

Assisted suicide should be accepted and available worldwide. Period.

Ever heard of morphine? It is used on the battlefield during amputation and the patient does not feel it.

I have sat next to someone dying of cancer....... my father and I KNOW what I am talking about. If you knew someone who was suffering and the pain continued than the correct dosage was not being used. I have seen a few of my friends die on morphine in a hospital and they died in peace. Of course at the end they no longer realized where they were or who they were due to the large amounts of morphone being pumped into their bodies but they died with dignity and without fear.

I suggest you learn before you open your mouth.

edit on 5-11-2014 by DeathSlayer because: (no reason given)

DeathSlayer

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 07:56 AM

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a reply to: WarminIndy

A very good point to which I agree. Assisted suicide is a hot topic and I believe people jump at it simply to end their life not necessarily to end the suffering.

This young lady decided to commit suicide BEFORE the intense pain even started. Read the news article, I have. The pain would come and go and she FELT it was getting worse but it was NOT at the part where she was on morphine.

Miracles do happen, of course they are seldom and they never work on someone who has already given up.

We grown adults should consider what are the consequences for our loved ones and friends, especially the children before deciding to end our lives. Pain is a terrible thing, I know, I too am disabled but it also reminds me that I am alive with a purpose just like that young woman.

FlyersFan

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 08:02 AM

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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Ever heard of morphine? It is used on the battlefield during amputation and the patient does not feel it.

Snarky.

I"ve had morphine. It doesn't always cover all pain for everyone. I've sat with people dying of cancer. There comes a point that it doesn't work for many of them. It's called 'breakthrough pain'. And medications can easily stop working after being used for a long time so a change has to be done, all very painful and not promised to work.

There are also people like me who are allergic to different morphines. A lot of us are.

I have sat next to someone dying of cancer....... my father and I KNOW what I am talking about. If you have any that person was suffering than the correct dosage was not being used.

You are dead wrong.

I suggest you learn before you open your mouth.

Right back atchya.

Your one experience isn't representative of the vast majority of experiences.

No one has a right to tell others who are suffering that they can't end their life with dignity. It's invasive and it's obnoxious. It's selfish of those not suffering to want to prolong another persons life of pain, and undignified living conditions.

Pain Control at The End of Life

June Dahl, PhD, a professor of pharmacology at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, and a founder of the American Alliance of Cancer Pain Initiatives. "Complete freedom from pain is not a realistic goal,"

Why Morphine Doesn't Always Work

Morphine has long been considered the “gold standard” when it comes to pain relief. A potent and addictive painkiller derived from opium, morphine has been used for over 200 years to treat severe pain. But sometimes administering morphine can backfire – not only providing little relief, but leaving some patients hypersensitive to pain.

Morphine is an addictive drug. The more it's used, the higher and higher doses that are needed to achieve the same level of pain relief. There comes a point where higher doses can't be used because it enters fatal areas. Tolerance for morphine is a common event for terminal cancer patients.

When morphine doesn’t reduce pain adequately the tendency is to increase the dosage. If a higher dosage produces pain relief, this is the classic picture of morphine tolerance, which is very well known. But sometimes increasing the morphine can, paradoxically, make the pain worse,” said co-author Dr. Michael Salter, a senior scientist and professor of physiology at University of Toronto.

And it's not just the unmanageable pain. People in end stages are many times reduced in cognitive areas and physical areas. Bedridden. In diapers. Unable to wash or feed themselves. Unable to communicate. No one wants to live like that or make their children change their diapers. It isn't 'fear or cowardice' that drives people to suicide at this point. That's absurd. It's DIGNITY and relief from pain. Completely understandable from a psychological point of view.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

FlyersFan

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 08:06 AM

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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
I just worry though, have we started down the slippery slope of acceptance toward expectation? That is the only thing I am afraid of.

Not even close. We have taken one small step toward allowing people who wish to do so, to end their life in dignity and to end it before the pain is outrageous. It's a positive step. Forced euthanasia isn't on the horizon.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

Klassified

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 08:08 AM

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a reply to: FlyersFan

Granite & Klassified - The International Tribunal of Crimes of Church and State is a well known HOAX. There is no ITCCS and there was no tribunal, etc etc.

Thank you FF. I was unaware of their existence, anyway. So you just saved me from wasting a lot of time. Though it was already obvious they couldn't actually do what their site said they do.

DeathSlayer

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 08:27 AM

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a reply to: FlyersFan

You do NOT have your facts straight. I am not sure where you get them from but you should talk with a medical doctor. Simply because you sat with someone while on morphine and they still experienced pain does not mean that it does not work. Like I told you the dosage was incorrect.

You can overdose on morphine it is an opiate and you can die! It does short one's life especially when taking large doses BUT their are some people who do NOT want to lose their humanity and want to die without being drugged up and these people made that choice - maybe you should have asked that person if that was his/her wish.

Morphine dosages at the proper dosage kills all pain - the dosage can be administered at a level where the individual is barely conscious.

There is NO reason for ANYONE to experience pain in ANY case unless that person is not being treated properly. Talk with compassionate doctors in the field and they will tell you the same.

You need to do your research - check with the American Cancer Society.