Mass Quarantine in the US: How Will It Work?

originally posted by: Valhall

Now, to the OP's question:

Remember the camps they were setting up and sending people to after Katrina? Think that way and I believe you've got your answer.

Pretty sure that's been answered a number of different ways.

IF it comes to that,short term sacrifice for a few thousand or more to protect millions? Consolidating trained personnel, equipment, and supplies all in one place for containment? I don't have any issues with this. '

And very few if any people went to FEMA camps after Katrina. Most of them came to Atlanta and stayed.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

Like I said, if they want to meet the needs of the many at the sacrifice of the free movement of the few they need to make it legal. It isn't legal just because a bunch of stage-standing governors want to look decisive. Contrary to the current populace's understanding "cause I say so" is not a legitimate construct of US government.

a reply to: Valhall

It's legal.

Every state has statutes governing isolation and quarantine in cases like this.

www.ncsl.org...

a reply to: ~Lucidity

Well, there ya go. It's legal. I say get after it. Now, since every effing illegal streaming up through my southern crack potentially has been exposed to (and many who are even known to be infected with) infectious diseases....I'm assuming this will be applied in an un-arbitrary fashion to ALL peoples irrespective of whether they have US citizenship or not.

a reply to: Valhall
So far, it is anyone coming into the United States through those three states (NJ/NY/IL) who had contact with ebola-infected people or is at high risk and in. This includes all healthcare workers treating patients.

This is all still a bit vague as to what high risk is being defined and probably unmanageable to a degree, but better than nothing. It is also why if they are really serious about stopping this, they should probably just not allow flights out of nations where the disease is raging.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: Valhall


... It is also why if they are really serious about stopping this, they should probably just not allow flights out of nations where the disease is raging.

This...sister...we can agree on!

We truly have a conundrum.

Do you really want the CDC to be anything other than a regulatory agency, which is what it is now.

Do you really want Medical Swat Teams under Federal authority to sweep into your state, county, or city and take charge?

The CDC has Less Power than you Think

The federal government does have its own powers. The CDC, as the U.S.’s primary agency for taking action to stop the spread of disease, has broad authority under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution to restrict travel into the country and between states of an infected person or a person who has come in contact with an infected person, according to Laura Donohue, director of the Center on National Security and the Law at Georgetown Law School. Federal quarantine can be imposed, too, on federal property, like a military base or National Forest land. And as the preeminent employer of experts on public health crises, the CDC is always likely to get involved within any affected state in the event of a looming pandemic.

But its power to act is extremely restricted. The agency traditionally acts in an advisory role and can only take control from local authorities under two circumstances: if local authorities invite them to do so or under the authority outlined in the Insurrection Act in the event of a total breakdown of law and order.

Please note that last sentence.

a reply to: queenofswords

If it becomes necessary to do so, why not? Who else is going to do it? You? These escalation paths and chains of command and response are in place for good reasons.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

It needs to remain at the state level. As the previous poster suggested, the federal agencies need to remain in the constitutional roles they are supposed to be restricted to...advisory/administrative. The CDC should come in to ASSIST in the needs the states will have when the states are acting in a constitutionally allowed manner. But we don't want to have federal detainment in states. And if the states have the type laws that you linked on their books, then they are acting within their constitutions and the US government should not be attempting to force them to do otherwise.

This is the way it is supposed to work.

a reply to: Khaleesi

originally posted by: RunForTheHills
I am a little confused. Maybe one of you can clear this up for? So we are to quarantine Dr and nurses and American citizens that travel to these areas and return. What about the other 1500 of African citizens from one of the three countries that are arriving daily? Is there plans to quarantine them too for 21 days? This should be done for everyone that is flying into our country from the Ebola infected areas, Not just the American citizens. I have not seen this addressed yet?

I've wondered that too - why focus on doctors and nurses but NOT corporate employees like executives, managers, supervisors, oil workers, diamond drillers, gold miners and the rest of them? ....US-based corporations have billions and trillions of dollars worth of interests in West Africa (never mind those blood diamonds), and routinely send staff over for operations and to monitor their interests.



ETA. The take-home message:

1. Quarantining health volunteers will NOT prevent Ebola from entering the US - it is impossible to "plug all the holes." For example, US-based corporations practically run West African economies - the number of corporate employees travelling there and back is probably well in excess of 10,000 per month. In any event, history and science show us that mass quarantine does not work.

2. Christie's treatment of Hickox establishes a legal precedent - it determines HOW mass quarantine will look in the USA - no legal rights, unheated cold tent, no sewage or running water, little food, no communication.....

3. If the epidemic is not stopped in West Africa, the likelihood of the epidemic reaching our shores increases exponentially - and so does the probability of draconian -and totally ineffective- mass quarantine measures in the USA.

originally posted by: soficrow




Just to be clear...



This thread is about how mass quarantine will work in the US - not about whether or not Americans returning from West Africa should be quarantined. Nurse Hickox' treatment gives us a preview.


This is a very scary thought, Soficrow. Now I have heard on CNN that the Pentagon is considering mandatory quarantine for all US troops returning from these infected countries. That's something like 3,000-4.000 troops. We might just see what a mass quarantine looks like, after all!

It should be said that at this time more Americans have married Kim Kardassian than have died from Ebola.

originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: Khaleesi

originally posted by: RunForTheHills
I am a little confused. Maybe one of you can clear this up for? So we are to quarantine Dr and nurses and American citizens that travel to these areas and return. What about the other 1500 of African citizens from one of the three countries that are arriving daily? Is there plans to quarantine them too for 21 days? This should be done for everyone that is flying into our country from the Ebola infected areas, Not just the American citizens. I have not seen this addressed yet?

I've wondered that too - why focus on doctors and nurses but NOT corporate employees like executives, managers, supervisors, oil workers, diamond drillers, gold miners and the rest of them? ....US-based corporations have billions and trillions of dollars worth of interests in West Africa (never mind those blood diamonds), and routinely send staff over for operations and to monitor their interests.

I covered that in my last post but here is a quote of that particular part of my post:

Yes, we should "treat Ebola in Africa" to prevent the spread worldwide. Any citizen that voluntarily goes to W. Africa will be subjected to quarantine and no one else from W. Africa will be allowed to enter the US until this crisis has passed.

Basically what I'm saying is, we should give these countries all the supplies we can and allow volunteers to go and help them. Those volunteers should understand BEFORE they even leave, that they will be quarantined when they return. Non-medical people should be discouraged from going. If you have business there and insist on going, the quarantine applies to you too.

originally posted by: RunForTheHills
I am a little confused. Maybe one of you can clear this up for? So we are to quarantine Dr and nurses and American citizens that travel to these areas and return. What about the other 1500 of African citizens from one of the three countries that are arriving daily? Is there plans to quarantine them too for 21 days? This should be done for everyone that is flying into our country from the Ebola infected areas, Not just the American citizens. I have not seen this addressed yet?

It's the health care workers mainly that are dying. That's why the focus needs to be on THEM when returning. They have been up close and personal with Ebola. Here are some statistics and this is why they are the ones that should definitely be scrutinized closer and quarantined.

Thirty more health care workers have died of Ebola in Sierra Leone than previously thought, the World Health Organization said on Tuesday, suggesting the risk to medical staff may have been understated. A WHO update published on Monday put the number of dead health care workers in Sierra Leone at 61, out of a total of 96 who had fallen ill with the disease. An update last week said 74 health care workers had caught Ebola in Sierra Leone as of Sept. 14 and 31 had died.

The revised figure means almost six out of 10 health workers who caught the disease in Sierra Leone have died, rather than four out of 10 as previously thought. WHO epidemiologist Eric Nilles said the additional deaths were found during a "retrospective evaluation" that aimed to improve the overall quality of data published by the WHO. "WHO continues to improve the characterization of the epidemic in Sierra Leone and as we do so we may see further increases in the proportion of health care workers affected," Nilles said.

The WHO said that as of Sept. 22, a total of 348 health care workers were known to have developed Ebola and 186 of them had died. Half of the cases were in Liberia and 67 in Guinea, which along with Sierra Leone have been worst hit by the outbreak. In Nigeria, 11 health workers have contracted the disease and five have died. In total, Nigeria has had 8 Ebola deaths and 20 cases. United Nations and WHO officials have said the high risk for health workers has hampered efforts to find volunteers to go to the epicenter of the outbreak in West Africa.

Health care workers killed by Ebola

originally posted by: Khaleesi

originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: Khaleesi

originally posted by: RunForTheHills
I am a little confused. Maybe one of you can clear this up for? So we are to quarantine Dr and nurses and American citizens that travel to these areas and return. What about the other 1500 of African citizens from one of the three countries that are arriving daily? Is there plans to quarantine them too for 21 days? This should be done for everyone that is flying into our country from the Ebola infected areas, Not just the American citizens. I have not seen this addressed yet?

I've wondered that too - why focus on doctors and nurses but NOT corporate employees like executives, managers, supervisors, oil workers, diamond drillers, gold miners and the rest of them? ....US-based corporations have billions and trillions of dollars worth of interests in West Africa (never mind those blood diamonds), and routinely send staff over for operations and to monitor their interests.

I covered that in my last post but here is a quote of that particular part of my post:

Yes, we should "treat Ebola in Africa" to prevent the spread worldwide. Any citizen that voluntarily goes to W. Africa will be subjected to quarantine and no one else from W. Africa will be allowed to enter the US until this crisis has passed.

Basically what I'm saying is, we should give these countries all the supplies we can and allow volunteers to go and help them. Those volunteers should understand BEFORE they even leave, that they will be quarantined when they return. Non-medical people should be discouraged from going. If you have business there and insist on going, the quarantine applies to you too.

Sorry - edited after you posted. Note that supplies are useless without trained manpower, and you really can't plug all the holes - people will always find a way around travel restrictions, especially if their profits depend on it. So why focus on doctors and nurses but NOT corporate employees like executives, managers, supervisors, oil workers, diamond drillers, gold miners and the rest of them? ....US-based corporations have billions and trillions of dollars worth of interests in West Africa (never mind those blood diamonds), and routinely send staff over for operations and to monitor their interests.

ETA. The take-home message:

1. Quarantining health volunteers will NOT prevent Ebola from entering the US - it is impossible to "plug all the holes." For example, US-based corporations practically run West African economies - the number of corporate employees travelling there and back is probably well in excess of 10,000 per month. In any event, history and science show us that mass quarantine does not work.

2. Christie's treatment of Hickox establishes a legal precedent - it determines HOW mass quarantine will look in the USA - no legal rights, unheated cold tent, no sewage or running water, little food, no communication.....

3. If the epidemic is not stopped in West Africa, the likelihood of the epidemic reaching our shores increases exponentially - and so does the probability of draconian -and totally ineffective- mass quarantine measures in the USA.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: soficrow

Two words, one question.

It won't.

What the hell am I looking at in your avatar?

True - history and science show that mass quarantine simply does not work. ....Seems people don't realize that current quarantines set a legal precedent. Not good (the precedent AND peoples' ignorance).

To answer your question, my avatar is a bull's butt. You will note that there is no anus, suggesting that the bull poop is backed up rather hugely and when it's finally expelled the release may be dramatic.

originally posted by: Valhall
Well, I don't think the OP was looking for us to all weigh in on whether we support forced quarantines or not, but since that's the way things are shaking out I'll get my vote in. I'm against it. It's unconstitutional. If they want to pass a law that states if you meet these criteria and are served notice that you are required by the law to follow quarantine protocol, then they need to get their happy little worthless arses in gear and pass the law, write the FIRM criteria, and develop the protocol. As well as provisioning to assist a notified person in getting all necessary supplies in order to comply with said protocol because once you're served notice you can't go horde-shopping, right?

Until that point, they are unlawfully detaining people (in the case of the nurse she hasn't even shown symptoms) out of fear....which is the exact same justification behind the Japanese internment camps during WWII.

Now, to the OP's question:

Remember the camps they were setting up and sending people to after Katrina? Think that way and I believe you've got your answer.

Yes.

AND - Christie et als' action set the legal precedent for quarantine in the US. If that precedent is not challenged, it will be solid for future reference.

....Could you please post some links to your past threads on Katrina and FEMA?

Thanks, sofi

originally posted by: soficrow

originally posted by: Khaleesi

originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: Khaleesi

originally posted by: RunForTheHills
I am a little confused. Maybe one of you can clear this up for? So we are to quarantine Dr and nurses and American citizens that travel to these areas and return. What about the other 1500 of African citizens from one of the three countries that are arriving daily? Is there plans to quarantine them too for 21 days? This should be done for everyone that is flying into our country from the Ebola infected areas, Not just the American citizens. I have not seen this addressed yet?

I've wondered that too - why focus on doctors and nurses but NOT corporate employees like executives, managers, supervisors, oil workers, diamond drillers, gold miners and the rest of them? ....US-based corporations have billions and trillions of dollars worth of interests in West Africa (never mind those blood diamonds), and routinely send staff over for operations and to monitor their interests.

I covered that in my last post but here is a quote of that particular part of my post:

Yes, we should "treat Ebola in Africa" to prevent the spread worldwide. Any citizen that voluntarily goes to W. Africa will be subjected to quarantine and no one else from W. Africa will be allowed to enter the US until this crisis has passed.

Basically what I'm saying is, we should give these countries all the supplies we can and allow volunteers to go and help them. Those volunteers should understand BEFORE they even leave, that they will be quarantined when they return. Non-medical people should be discouraged from going. If you have business there and insist on going, the quarantine applies to you too.

Sorry - edited after you posted. Note that supplies are useless without trained manpower, and you really can't plug all the holes - people will always find a way around travel restrictions, especially if their profits depend on it. So why focus on doctors and nurses but NOT corporate employees like executives, managers, supervisors, oil workers, diamond drillers, gold miners and the rest of them? ....US-based corporations have billions and trillions of dollars worth of interests in West Africa (never mind those blood diamonds), and routinely send staff over for operations and to monitor their interests.

ETA. The take-home message:

1. Quarantining health volunteers will NOT prevent Ebola from entering the US - it is impossible to "plug all the holes." For example, US-based corporations practically run West African economies - the number of corporate employees travelling there and back is probably well in excess of 10,000 per month. In any event, history and science show us that mass quarantine does not work.

2. Christie's treatment of Hickox establishes a legal precedent - it determines HOW mass quarantine will look in the USA - no legal rights, unheated cold tent, no sewage or running water, little food, no communication.....

3. If the epidemic is not stopped in West Africa, the likelihood of the epidemic reaching our shores increases exponentially - and so does the probability of draconian -and totally ineffective- mass quarantine measures in the USA.

You edit to add your post the same questions already answered and still feel the need to ask them AGAIN in this post.
I believe if you read my posts in their ENTIRETY you will find that I answered all your points, except maybe for Nurse Hickox treatment. But I will go through them point by point ONE MORE TIME. If you have NEW questions for me after this perhaps I will reply but I will not keep repeating my answers ad naseum just because some members here have ADD and can't read an entire post from beginning to end or have some perverse desire to badger those that disagree with them and need to have the last word.

Note that supplies are useless without trained manpower,

Volunteers would not be stopped from traveling to these countries. I have made that point abundantly clear several times.

you really can't plug all the holes - people will always find a way around travel restrictions, especially if their profits depend on it.

No, we can not plug all the holes. I think most of us realize that. Most of us know that outlawing something just creates a black market. Same will happen here. The point of all of this is to stem the tide. My personal opinion is that if we manage to slow it down (which will happen if we would take quarantine more seriously and not rely on the 'honor system') Ebola will burn itself out simply because of the nature of the disease.

So why focus on doctors and nurses but NOT corporate employees like executives, managers, supervisors, oil workers, diamond drillers, gold miners and the rest of them? ....US-based corporations have billions and trillions of dollars worth of interests in West Africa (never mind those blood diamonds), and routinely send staff over for operations and to monitor their interests.

I've already answered this twice on this thread and several more times in other related threads but here it is again. ANY citizen that voluntarily goes to W. Africa will be subjected to quarantine and no one else from W. Africa will be allowed to enter the US until this crisis has passed. ANY covers EVERYONE not just HCW.

Christie's treatment of Hickox establishes a legal precedent - it determines HOW mass quarantine will look in the USA - no legal rights, unheated cold tent, no sewage or running water, little food, no communication.....

The manner in which her situation was handled was obviously less than ideal. I don't agree with the WAY they handled it but she definitely should be quarantined in an area that is comfortable and has appropriate facilities. Precedent for treatment of those in quarantine has not been set by Christie. Legal precedent is set by a court decision. Since there have been no court decisions YET about conditions of quarantine, precedent has not been set. Her lawsuit may help set precedent for that state.

If the epidemic is not stopped in West Africa, the likelihood of the epidemic reaching our shores increases exponentially - and so does the probability of draconian -and totally ineffective- mass quarantine measures in the USA.

This has been answered several times also. Yes, we need to stop Ebola in W Africa. We can prevent MASS quarantines if we implement these quarantines now.

originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: Khaleesi

originally posted by: RunForTheHills
I am a little confused. Maybe one of you can clear this up for? So we are to quarantine Dr and nurses and American citizens that travel to these areas and return. What about the other 1500 of African citizens from one of the three countries that are arriving daily? Is there plans to quarantine them too for 21 days? This should be done for everyone that is flying into our country from the Ebola infected areas, Not just the American citizens. I have not seen this addressed yet?

I've wondered that too - why focus on doctors and nurses but NOT corporate employees like executives, managers, supervisors, oil workers, diamond drillers, gold miners and the rest of them? ....US-based corporations have billions and trillions of dollars worth of interests in West Africa (never mind those blood diamonds), and routinely send staff over for operations and to monitor their interests.



ETA. The take-home message:

1. Quarantining health volunteers will NOT prevent Ebola from entering the US - it is impossible to "plug all the holes." For example, US-based corporations practically run West African economies - the number of corporate employees travelling there and back is probably well in excess of 10,000 per month. In any event, history and science show us that mass quarantine does not work.

2. Christie's treatment of Hickox establishes a legal precedent - it determines HOW mass quarantine will look in the USA - no legal rights, unheated cold tent, no sewage or running water, little food, no communication.....

3. If the epidemic is not stopped in West Africa, the likelihood of the epidemic reaching our shores increases exponentially - and so does the probability of draconian -and totally ineffective- mass quarantine measures in the USA.

from what all I have read the only way to stop Ebola from coming into the USA is is to secure our borders and stop flights from coming in from the affected areas. And even that may not stop because of the ones that are able to enter illegally.

I am one to that is skeptical about giving our rights away so the government can protect us. Which I do not think they have any intentions of doing so.

This all seems like a bad scary movie when you have already figured out the ending. Not sure I want to finish watching it!!!!

a reply to: RunForTheHills

I understand the concern about giving up rights. My personal view on that is .... volunteers have the right to volunteer and the American public has the right to ask them to be quarantined when they return. Basically, your rights end where mine begin. You can volunteer but you don't have the right to ignore that by not being quarantined for a reasonable time, you are risking MY health.

As for border security.... yeah it's a big issue. Borders should be secured, end of story imo.