Spider-woman and the Los Angeles Lizard People.

a reply to: Thorneblood

What does that have to do with wise son from the OP's story...

He never went to LA...

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Are you intentionally ignoring that wise son's journey ends in the Gulf of California?

a reply to: raymundoko

No i wouldn't rule anything in or out, there's similar tradition from New Mexico of the ancestral lizard people.

Zuni (New Mexico)

Eight years was but four days and four nights when the world was new. It was while such days and nights continued that men were led out, in the
night-shine of the World of Seeing. For even when they saw the great star, they thought it the Sun-father himself, it so burned their eye-balls.

Men and creatures were more alike then than now. Our fathers were black,like the caves they came from; their skins were cold and scaly like
those of mud creatures; their eyes were goggled like an owl's; their ears were like those of cave bats; their feet were webbed like those of
walkers in wet and soft places; they had tails, long or short, as they were old or young. Men crouched when they walked, or crawled along the
ground like lizards.

They feared to walk straight, but crouched as before time they had in their cave worlds, that they might not stumble or fall in the uncertain light.

When the morning star arose, they blinked excessively when they beheld its brightness and cried out that now surely the Father was coming. But
it was only the elder of the Bright Ones, heralding with his shield of flame the approach of the Sun-father. And when, low down in the east,
the Sun-father himself appeared, though shrouded in the mist of the world-waters, they were blinded and heated by his light and glory.

They fell down wallowing and covered their eyes with their hands and arms,yet ever as they looked toward the light, they struggled toward the Sun as moths and other night creatures seek the light of a camp fire. Thus they became used to the light.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

That's my main point. Mexico has similar symbolism so why make a square peg fit into a round hole? The Wise Son story is clearly about the Colorado River, which ends in the Gulf of California. This is nowhere near LA and most definitely nowhere near Mt Shasta. It would have been nice for you to weave the story into where it fits.

a reply to: raymundoko

I've sourced what is probably the best study of the myth and this agrees with your consideration that Wise Son-Tiyo must have disembarked at the Gulf of California, however there are also traditions of undertaking a considerable journey to the North West from that point to find the Kiva of the snake people.

Some scholars have speculated that the island home of Huru’ingwùuti could be Isla Montague in the Gulf of California near the Colorado River Delta (see Anyon 1999:36).

Descriptions of the Snake Kiva are more vague, but multiple narratives say that Tiyo and Kòokyangwso’wùuti walked for many days from the ocean to the east or northeast before encountering the Snake People. Several accounts describe the Snake Kiva as being high upon a mountain or cliff top (Bourke 1984:177; Curtis 1922:76).

Stephen (1929:37), on the other hand, stated that Kòokyangwso’wùuti and Tiyo traveled to the west and the north until they came to a large rock where a great snake sat upright, and there was the Snake Kiva. Herschel Talashoma also said that Tiyo walked toward the northwest to find the Snake People (in Ferguson 1998:112). Finally, before Tiyo and his snake bride returned to Tokonavi, they are said to have built a shrine in the desert where Tiyo’s craft first stopped (Courlander 1971:89-90).

Tiyo and the epic journey down the Colorado river.

Of course in looking into this tradition from the perspective of the search at Los Angeles there are certain unknowns with regards to the information that was on the supposed map that prompted the search in that area, that would be the key to understanding why the snake kiva was held to be there.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

We grew up being told by the elders of our tribe that the entrance to the Snake Kiva is beneath the bandstand at the entrance to Olvera Street.



The key is guarded by Morrisey.

Awesome thread, Kantzveldt!

a reply to: raymundoko

Aside from the fact that Wise Son could have easily visited one of the 13 settlements on the Pacific coast?

a reply to: Bybyots

Well i'll bow to your local knowledge, of course it is one of those clear and self evident truth thingies that the snake kiva has to be located at Los Angeles;

Several accounts describe the Snake Kiva as being high upon a mountain or cliff top

I've never thought twice about reptilian conspiracies.... Until now. Very interesting and well written.

Also, I fell into a nap in the middle of the thread (not from boredom), some interesting dreams were had!

a reply to: Thorneblood

Only that the stories associated with him do not corroborate that...All the stories agree that they traveled for many days. But from LA to the Colorado River Delta is roughly 300 miles in a straight line. That area has deserts and mountains between them...

Also keep in mind that in the story they never leave the island that Spider Woman lives on...they WALK.

If you want to have a discussion on the ancient shorelines of the Gulf of Cali, the Salton sea and how Yuma may be the original delta of the Colorado then by all means let's discuss that.

As is, the OP story is not associated with LA in any way.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

So ignore all the mountains between the Gulf of Cali and LA so you can go right to the Hollywood hills?

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Several accounts describe the Snake Kiva as being high upon a mountain or cliff top

It's true, Kantzveldt, that this is a very old tale, the details of which have been obscured by the passage of time. This slight confusuion over location is due, in this case, to something akin to the old axiom which states that, "History is written by the victors".

You see, The Snake People did for countless centuries inhabit the hillsides of what we now call Southern California. It was not until the coming of the Vulturitic Cultures (a.k.a. the "Vulturites") that the Snake Clan was forced from their hard earned ancestral hillside-homes, which originally strecthed from Malibu to Etiwanda.

The bandstand at Olvera Street was the original place of emergence of the Snake Clan at the beginning of the 4th world, and was considered by them, to be the "Navel of The World".

It was not until after the defeat of the Snake Clan at the hands of The Vulturite Hordes, there at the Hollywood Sign which now marks where once stood the Snake Clan's largest kiva, that the King of the Snake Clans, Jeem, led his people back underground, back in to the navel of the world under the bandstand, there at Olvera Street.

a reply to: raymundoko

Yes of course, you don't seem to have a problem with the notion of spider-women and shape shifting reptilians so i'm surprised that the idea of walking North West over many days to arrive at the Los Angeles basin should trouble you so.



a reply to: Bybyots


And the Hollywood Bowl, this is where the snake dance ritual was first performed...?

a reply to: Kantzveldt

I've got no problem with their symbolism. I think all myth is rooted in fact. The trek itself is plausible as well as the animals he came across (smiladon, dire wolf and giant snake)

But you yourself linked the paper that he very well could have gone East. He never mentions another "ocean" and on arriving in LA via a mountain would most definitely notice the pacific ocean...

It seems obvious, at least to me anyway, that he is land locked indicating he is either on Baja Cali or in Mexico. Since the Baja is all desert it really doesn't lend itself to housing saber-toothed cats, Dire Wolves and giant snakes, however Mexico very well did.

a reply to: raymundoko

So wrong, so very wrong.

California Saber-Toothed Tiger(Smilodon fatalis californicus)-a subspecies of smilodon that lives in California, Oregon, Nevada, southern Washington, Utah, New Mexico, and Arizona, down into Baja Califonia peninsula. lives mainly in grasslands, bush country, and semi-deserts.

a reply to: Thorneblood

I didn't say they weren't there, I said didn't lend itself well...

This is interesting with regards to the golden tablets with the corners broken off that Shufelt claimed to be able to detect, the tablets are very important in Hopi tradition but they do claim to still possess them, apart from the missing corner, in their tradition the corner stone is quite literally a corner of a stone.

Hopi tradition tells of sacred tablets which were imparted to the Hopi by various deities. Like most of Hopi mythology, accounts differ as to when the tablets were given and in precisely what manner.

Perhaps the most important was said to be in the possession of the Fire Clan, and is related to the return of the Pahana. In one version, an elder of the Fire Clan worried that his people would not recognize the Pahana when he returned from the east. He therefore etched various designs including a human figure into a stone, and then broke off the section of the stone which included the figure's head. This section was given to Pahana and he was told to bring it back with him so that the Hopi would not be deceived by a witch or sorcerer.This one is Truth, the stone has an Indian face of black, white and grey with black feathers, and it is not etched but looks more like ink that soaked into the stone.

Another version has it that the Fire Clan was given a sacred tablet by Masauwu, who as the giver of fire was their chief deity. In this version the human figure was purposely drawn without a head, and a corner of the stone was broken off. Masauwu told them that eventually the Pahana would return bringing the broken-off corner of the stone, but if in the meantime a Hopi leader accepted a false religion, he must assent to having his head cut off as drawn on the stone.

The true Pahana (or Bahana) is the Lost White Brother of the Hopi. Most versions have it that the Pahana or Elder Brother left for the east at the time that the Hopi entered the Fourth World and began their migrations. However, the Hopi say that he will return again and at his coming the wicked will be destroyed and a new age of peace, the Fifth World, will be ushered into the world. As mentioned above, it is said he will bring with him a missing section of a sacred Hopi stone in the possession of the Fire Clan, and that he will come wearing red. Traditionally, Hopis are buried facing eastward in expectation of the Pahana who will come from that direction

a reply to: Kantzveldt

The golden tablets angle doesn't hold it's roots in Hopi myth. That was added by the good old white man (Mormons I think actually). As far as I can tell the tablets were stone. Even your quote says they are stone.

In fact, Shufelt was a Mormon. Guess what area the Mormons loooooved in LA:

Battles with local Californios in Los Angeles during the Mexican-American war (1846-48) were numerous, sometimes brutal, and often tinged with racism. For instance, the Mormon soldiers were notorious for firing into what is now LA Plaza/Olvera street and using the civilian population as de facto sniper targets.

a reply to: raymundoko

No of course the tablets weren't by tradition of gold, and as you say the Mormon connection is interesting as they were generally obsessed with finding such to validate their delusional faith, but what is demonstrated is that their search was generated by an assortment of Hopi myths, which is important as the author of the Skeptoid article seemed unable to find any;

I did make a pretty thorough effort to track down any such Hopi legend, but came up empty handed, not counting numerous modern references to Mt. Shasta and the Los Angeles catacomb story. I did find a "Lizard clan" referenced in several Hopi stories, but always among other clans (the Spider clan, the Bear clan), and never any references to underground cities, golden tablets, or any other elements from Shufelt's story. Obviously, my failure to find any evidence of such a legend doesn't prove anything: Native American legends were traditionally passed by word of mouth and never were written down, the only exceptions being those that made it into modern storybook collections.

Skeptoid Article

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Keep in mind though, that that very same article you quoted basically says the lizard people of LA are a hoax perpetuated by Shufelt...

Most likely, this tall tale from the early days of Los Angeles was little more than an effort by Shufelt to interest investors in his treasure hunt, in which he no doubt believed wholeheartedly. As for Macklin? Who knows, Shufelt could have made him up, or he could have been a real guy, possibly even a real Hopi, and may have even told a genuine — if undocumented — Hopi legend. What Shufelt didn't know was that his little gem in the Los Angeles Times was the kickoff for a whole generation of one of our most bizarre (and entertaining) urban legends.

I've basically always outright dismissed the Lizard People of LA because they were invented in 1934. No record of "Macklin" AKA "Little Chief Greenleaf" having actually existed can be found, nor was he interviewed. He may very well have been made up by Shufelt.

So I began looking into the various elements from the LA Times story. First on the list was Shufelt's "radio x-ray" device. Times reporter Jean Bosquet described it:

Shufelt's radio device consists chiefly of a cylindrical glass case inside which a plummet attached to a copper wire held by the engineer sways continually, pointing, he asserts, toward minerals or tunnels below the surface of the ground, and then revolves when over the mineral or swings in prolongation of the tunnel when above the excavation.

So, it turns out, Shufelt's device has little to do with either radio or x-rays and more to do with a common dowsing pendulum. This was all he had to guide his elaborate drawing of the catacomb layout, which you can see online at Skeptoid.com, along with a picture of Shufelt using his dowsing pendulum.

Shufelt stated he has taken "x-ray pictures" of thirty seven such tablets, three of which have their southwest corners cut off. "My radio x-ray pictures of tunnels and rooms, which are subsurface voids, and of gold pictures with perfect corners, sides and ends, are scientific proof of their existence," Shufelt said.

So the "map" people continually use in this thread was first drawn in 1934 by a guy using a type of witching device.

I am sure it should be obvious that I actually do care about this subject and that Native American history is very important to me. It is my main reading hobby. I am 1/8th Cherokee who intertwined with the Hopi after they were moved from the South East to Oklahoma. Some continued west on their own and ended up in Arizona. My Irish Grandfather met my Cherokee Grandmother in a Cherokee community in Arizona. The integrated a lot of Hopi mythology into their own stories. (At least the ones in AZ)

We actually have a group of Native Americans (the Tongva) who have been in the LA basin for 4k years. They have stories of displacing the previous inhabitants, but no stories of those inhabitants being snake people...