There is a Difference between Muslims and Extremists

Sometimes I want to reach thru my computer screen and slap people silly. The generalizations that are made in many topics can be frustrating and annoying but in the case of Muslims/Arabs and Terrorism, the generalizations can be downright dangerous.

In every religion, culture and society, there is good and evil, moderate and extreme, blaming an entire religion and race of people for the actions of a few is in my opinion a detriment and a major factor in why this war on terrorism will continue to be an uphill battle for good people of all faiths.

American media has repeatedly criticized moderate Muslims for not speaking up against terrorist attacks committed by extremist Muslims, but American media does not take the time to interview the average muslim on the street or attend a koran sharif, or visit a mosque to see that moderate muslims feel the same outrage as everyone else when innocent people are killed. The media of this country is guilty of committing the generalizations that many on this site also commit, by making this war on terrorism seem like a war against a religion. Our esteemed President Bush is also guilty of making this in a religious issue instead of addressing the truth of the matter.

When members of this site actually feel that racial profiling is a good thing, it scares me to think what this country will become if such ideas become accepted by the ignorant. For those people, I ask them to remember Richard Reid, Jose Padilla, Adam Gadahn, John Walker Lindh and Zacharias Moussoui.

Just Who's Fighting the Real War Against Islam?

One of the most important conflicts in the world today is fought without garnering much notice in the West. It is the battle among Muslims over the future of their faith. Joyce Davis, author of "Martyrs: Innocence, Vengeance and Despair in the Middle East," describes the war that is being waged within Islam � and explains why the West has a large stake in who emerges victorious.

Osama bin Laden and his network of militants have declared that the United States is engaged in a war against Islam. It is a war, they say, that the United States declared decades ago in sending troops to Muslim lands � and in cementing its �special relationship� with Israel.

Have Muslim militants gone too far?

But now another cry is resounding throughout the Islamic world.
Many moderate Muslims now realize that the forces defaming Islam can only be stopped by those who know its teachings � and are brave enough to defend them.

Muslim moderates are speaking out with increasing anger against extremists, who they say have gone beyond the bounds of Islam�s teachings to murder women, children � and even fellow Muslims.

At times, Muslim moderates have seemed ambivalent about suicide bombers and the extremists� fight against the West. They were caught between their own anger at the plight of Palestinians and Iraqis and what they knew to be the militants� distortion of the teachings of Islam.

But, it seems the militants have gone too far � and there are signs that Muslims are stepping up more boldly to defend their faith.

Growing divisions

Sheikh Muhammad al-Mukhtar a-Shanqiti � an Islamic scholar who writes for Islam Online � is among a growing chorus of authorities who have gone on the record to distance themselves, and their religion, from those who attack innocents.

�First of all, we would like to stress that Islam forbids targeting non-combatants or taking them as hostages or inflicting any kind of harm on them,� he wrote in response to a question from a reader of Islam Online.

Ignoring the rules
�One of the rules of conduct of jihad in Islam that Muhammad stressed is, do not kill a woman, a child, an old man � or a monk in his monastery.�

Americans may have hung their heads in shame at the scandal of Abu Graib � but Muslim moderates also have been horrified at the atrocities that militants have committed in the name of Islam.

Islam also sets harsh penalties for those who kill fellow believers. In his book �Islamic Awakening Between Rejection and Extremism,� Sheikh Yusef al Qaradawi � the renowned Islamic scholar � quoted a well-known hadith, or reported saying, of Muhammad:

�When two Muslims draw weapons against each other, they are at the brink of hell. If one of them kills the other, they both enter it together.�

Moderates vs. militants

That is why devout Muslims throughout the world have been horrified by the beheadings in Iraq and the murder of children in Beslan.

Extremists at war with Islam

�Extremism is the enemy of Islam,� Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of the prestigious al Azhar mosque in Cairo declared at a conference of Islamic scholars in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, in 2004.

Muslim moderates are speaking out with increasing anger against extremists, who they say have gone beyond the bounds of Islam�s teachings.

He and other eminent scholars at the gathering sounded an alarm heard throughout the Muslim world � bin Laden and other militants are not only at war with the West, but at war against the true Islam.

This divide between moderate and radical Islamists has been steadily deepening since the first mother suicide bomber went to her death in the West Bank.

After Reem Rayishi orphaned her children by blowing herself up at an Israeli checkpoint, Dr. Hasan Mayy al-Nourani � a prominent Palestinian who is also candidate for president of the Palestinian Authority � wrote an article published on January 14, 2004, on the Dunya al-Watan website entitled �Hamas, Apologize to the Children!�

Unsanctioned actions
�Hamas, whose Sheikh professes that the Erez operation carried out by an infant's mother marks a significant evolution in the opposition to occupation, made a grave mistake. Have you apologized to the infant for letting its mother leave it for ever?�

He was referring to the late Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas, who was killed in an Israeli attack in March 2004.

Misused martyrdom
And Ziyad abu al-Hiya, a Palestinian intellectual, wrote in Fatah�s Gaza Journal: �A 22-year-old mother of two children, one an infant boy and the other a girl, carried out a mission of self-sacrifice. Who issued a fatwa [religious ruling] taking an infant's mother away from him? Who decided to add two more orphans to the list of Palestine's orphans?�

Bin Laden and other militants are not only at war with the West � but at war against the true Islam.

�On the basis of what Quran verses and what hadiths [traditional Islamic writings] does a young mother leave her true place of jihad [holy war], which is raising the two children, one of whom still needs her milk.�


�The religious scholars of Islam, and particularly the religious scholars in Palestine, must make their point; they must clarify to all the position of Islam regarding operations of self-sacrifice, and the most recent operation in particular.�


�Who can believe that a father or a mother rejoices at the martyrdom of their child? Oh religious scholars, raise your voices! Oh intellectual writers, raise your voices! There can be no more silence.�

Lets hope that before its to late people like EdSinger will see that Muslims aren't all terrorists and far from all terrorists are muslims.

Over here in belgium we have a good share of Turkish and Marocan Muslims living here, most were brought here at the start of the century and after the war together with Italians and some Eastern European people, because they were the only ones that were willing to work the long, hard and dangerous hours in the coal mines.

Now about 20 years ago the coal mines shut down and all people working in them older then 50 got early pension and the rest was trown back on the job market.

There are some troubles between new arrivals and the belgian culture, but in general the people that came here for the mines are perfectly integrated, mainly when the new arrivals after 10 years still don't speak a word of dutch or french and don't follow belgian law concerning things like Home butchering(In belgium slaughtering of animals is only alowed to be done by a licensed butcher at a slaughterhouse.

Other problems include these newer arrivals bringing over kids from Turkey and Maroco and registering them as their own children and like this claiming child support pay for 10 to 20 children (mounting up to like 1000$ a month of child support) while these kids aren't even theirs.

But most of them are nice people that try to make a nice new life for themselves over here.

Originally posted by thematrix
Lets hope that before its to late people like EdSinger will see that Muslims aren't all terrorists and far from all terrorists are muslims.

now, i agree with this thread. there are people here in this forum that go beyond the acceptable levels of anti-anything.

BUT, name one person on the planet other than timothy mcveigh and ted kzcinsky that is a non-muslim terrorist. name one that is a non-arab terrorist, there are a few, but name one.

BUT, name one person on the planet other than timothy mcveigh and ted kzcinsky that is a non-muslim terrorist. name one that is a non-arab terrorist, there are a few, but name one.

Martin McGuinness
Gerry Adams
David Copeland

Non muslims/Non Arab terrorists:

Most terrorist convictions are non-Muslim

Not all terrorism is Arab/Muslim

What about Jewish and Spanish Terrorists?


Columbian Rebels? Peta? EcoTerrorists? None of these are muslims or arabs, they are labeled are terrorists. Basque has been attacking Spain for years, they are not arabs. The Japanese Red Army, The Aum Cult, any of these ring a bell?

specific non arab terrorists: John Walker Lindh, Jose Padilla, Adam Gadahn
but we can go even further, I can say Meir Kahane was a terrorist, Fidel Castro is a terrorist, several Indian politicians are terrorists (Hindus),

Fusako Shigenobu - Japanees Red Army
Kach - Founded by radical Israeli-American rabbi Meir Kahane, fight for a returning of Israel to a Biblical state.
Kahane Chai founded by Meir Kahane's son Binyamin following his father's assassination in the US.
Tamil Tigers
PKK - Marxist Terrorist group trying to establish a Kurdish state in Turkey, religion isn't the point there, but the creation of a sperate kurdish state.
National Liberation Army (ELN) Colombia - Marxist Terrorist group.
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia - Colombian Communist terrorist group.
Revolutionary Organization 17 November - Greek group.
Sendero Luminoso (Shining Path, or SL) - Maoist group in Peru, killed over 30000 people so far.
Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement - Marxists in Peru.
Alex Boncayao Brigade - Philipino Communist driven group.
Interahamwe - Rwandees group that was the Hutu military force that killed 500.000 people in the Rwandees genocide.
Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA)
Irish Republican Army (IRA)
First of October Antifascist Resistance Group - Communist group in Spain.
Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF) - Ireland
New People's Army (NPA) - Maoist group in the Philipines.
Revolutionary United Front - Siera Lione
United Self-Defense Forces - Colombia

And thats just the ones from the "main threat" list by the US state department.

Then you also have the ones people don't really notice:

ALF - Animal Liberation front, torched 9 McDonalds and Quick restaurants in Belgium and countless more all over the world, including the US.
PETA - ... need say more? ...
KKK - ... they aren't classified as illegal or terrorists, but they are, racist extremist activists that killed more then their share of people over the last few 100 years.

And loads more.

Every religion has terrorists, every ideology has terrorists, every "activisme" has terrorists.

All ideologies have extremists and if there is an extremist you have a good chance at terrorist actions.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by thematrix]

Originally posted by worldwatcher
American media has repeatedly criticized moderate Muslims for not speaking up against terrorist attacks committed by extremist Muslims, but American media does not take the time to interview the average muslim on the street or attend a koran sharif, or visit a mosque to see that moderate muslims feel the same outrage as everyone else when innocent people are killed.

You know, for what it's worth..

I wonder how many people in the Arab world, with their own 'troubled' media, have any idea how much opposition there is to the Iraq War and the War on Terror in the US and other Western nations..

Originally posted by worldwatcher
The generalizations that are made in many topics can be frustrating and annoying but in the case of Muslims/Arabs and Terrorism, the generalizations can be downright dangerous.

My personal view on Islam is that it is now two almost separate religions:

The first western Islam, preaching peaceful and moderate views

and

The second extreme (mostly middle east based) Islam, hatred towards the west and those not of the Muslim faith.

Sadly the wests involvment in the middle east has seen a growth in those who are willing to follow the militant extreme version.

Sadly the wests involvment in the middle east has seen a growth in those who are willing to follow the militant extreme version.

There must be a reason why they hate us, no? I mean, they must have been causally nessicated to act in the violent countenance they have the last 2 decades?

Well, I wonder if American foriegn policy has anything to do with this..

Deep

"Sheikh Muhammad al-Mukhtar a-Shanqiti � an Islamic scholar who writes for Islam Online � is among a growing chorus of authorities who have gone on the record to distance themselves, and their religion, from those who attack innocents".......

And who of Islam will be granted the grand poobah right to decide which infidel is innocent, and which is not???

�First of all, we would like to stress that Islam forbids targeting non-combatants or taking them as hostages or inflicting any kind of harm on them,�.......

And to what muslim cleric will we grant the right to make this decision? Who is a combatant? Any non-muslim is an Infidel yes?

And ZeroDeep

"There must be a reason why they hate us, no? I mean, they must have been causally nessicated to act in the violent countenance they have the last 2 decades?

Well, I wonder if American foriegn policy has anything to do with this".......

This is absolutely ridiculous, in a thread which purports that "there is a difference between Muslims and Extremists" one would post that "they"....whoever that is, possibly the muslims, or the extemists, or both....some how have justification to hate and kill "us", yes you read it here, the "peaceful muslim religion" has justification to kill......

For the most part, a muslim can walk freely, and worship freely, in the United States of America and not feel threatened with death, or beheading.....when an American can do the same in a Muslim land, I will begin to believe this bovine feces posted in this thread title.

This is absolutely ridiculous, in a thread which purports that "there is a difference between Muslims and Extremists" one would post that "they"....whoever that is, possibly the muslims, or the extemists, or both....some how have justification to hate and kill "us", yes you read it here, the "peaceful muslim religion" has justification to kill......

For the most part, a muslim can walk freely, and worship freely, in the United States of America and not feel threatened with death, or beheading.....when an American can do the same in a Muslim land, I will begin to believe this bovine feces posted in this thread title.

I commented on another members post.

Americans can walk freely in the Middle East and do; your postulations that they will be subject to brutal "be-headings" is urban legend, typical in Islamophobic Americans. I am a Canadian --an enemy of Al-Queda-- and I have traveled to Kuwait and Lebenon, never once was I targeted for crimes you purport to occur in the Middle East. You have not refuted anything against this "bovine feces", you just touted subjective islamophobic dogma.

You have obviously not understand what my original question to a member was; you decided to prance, in haste, unto something you misunderstood.

Determinism states that every causally nessicated state of affairs has a reaction; I asked what that nessicated state of affairs was, and wether American foriegn policy was responsible. If you're not going to give that answer a rational and productive discourse, then I would suggest not calling it "ridiculous."

It's just simple forum decorum.

Deep

Well Deep,

I do not adhere to the "causally nessicated state of affairs" as being justification for killing innocent civilians, sorry.

And mention of Canadian was not in my post.

And I did not state "the middle east" as being the locale, rather I said "muslim lands"

And further, I am not whatsoever you call Islamophobic, as a phobia implies fear, of which I am not afraid of Islam, and further do not believe all muslims to be fanatical killers.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
Non muslims/Non Arab terrorists:

Most terrorist convictions are non-Muslim

Not all terrorism is Arab/Muslim

What about Jewish and Spanish Terrorists?


Columbian Rebels? Peta? EcoTerrorists? None of these are muslims or arabs, they are labeled are terrorists. Basque has been attacking Spain for years, they are not arabs. The Japanese Red Army, The Aum Cult, any of these ring a bell?

specific non arab terrorists: John Walker Lindh, Jose Padilla, Adam Gadahn
but we can go even further, I can say Meir Kahane was a terrorist, Fidel Castro is a terrorist, several Indian politicians are terrorists (Hindus),

I find it interesting that you picked non-religious terrorists (Columbian Rebels, Peta, EcoTerrorists) to make a comparison to Islamic terrorists. My point is that I don't believe that Islam is a religion, but rather a political/social ideology (like communisim) used to control people through intimidation and fear. References to God (Allah) is simply a guise to hide Islam's true nature.

This very question is being discussed on this thread:

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Here's a scenario and a question:

Let's say there are two Muslims in a room: one is an "extreme fundamentalist; the other a "moderate Muslim". As the two discuss opposing views on Islam what references for tolerance and peace in Islam can the moderate Muslim make, from the Qu'ran, to support his position?

The fact is that this "extreme" form of Islam is the fastest growing ideology in the world today which is, at least in part, highlighted by these two separate surveys:

www.jpost.com.../JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1101356023257

www.etaiwannews.com...

I'm not saying that Muslims in general are "evil barbarians". In fact, most are peace-loving. My question is: Are they peace-loving because of Islam, or in spite of Islam? The unfortunate answer is that moderate Muslims do not get their moderate beliefs from Islamic teachings (the Qur'an and Sharia). When discussing what those texts do teach, it seems the "fundamentalists" have it right as they are able to justify their actions using the instruction contained in the Qur'an.

Worldwatcher:

I can't find anything online about this person: Sheikh Muhammad al-Mukhtar a-Shanqiti

Could you please post a link where I can read his views?

I find it interesting that you picked non-religious terrorists (Columbian Rebels, Peta, EcoTerrorists) to make a comparison to Islamic terrorists. My point is that I don't believe that Islam is a religion, but rather a political/social ideology (like communisim) used to control people through intimidation and fear. References to God (Allah) is simply a guise to hide Islam's true nature.

I agree, but I can also add Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, and countless other faiths into this category.

I think the problem lies in the word, RELIGION; this word is to ambigious and creates a chasm that cannot be broken free of.

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

I find it interesting that you picked non-religious terrorists (Columbian Rebels, Peta, EcoTerrorists) to make a comparison to Islamic terrorists. My point is that I don't believe that Islam is a religion, but rather a political/social ideology (like communisim) used to control people through intimidation and fear. References to God (Allah) is simply a guise to hide Islam's true nature.

I agree, but I can also add Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, and countless other faiths into this category.

I think the problem lies in the word, RELIGION; this word is to ambigious and creates a chasm that cannot be broken free of.

Deep

Actually, ZeroDeep, the problem lies in the TEACHINGS of a religion. While the religions you provided may have extreme violence in their history, the believers of those faiths acted outside the teachings of their faiths. "Extreme" Islamists are commiting acts of violence completely within the teachings of the Qur'an, the Hadith, and the Sharia. BTW, I don't belong to any religion. To me it's just another way whereby people can further polarize us as humans from one another.

Christianity was acting outside of it's Judiac mother? That does not sound right..

It's not the nature of religion to spur violence, it's the nature of man to spure violence.

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Christianity was acting outside of it's Judiac mother? That does not sound right..

It's not the nature of religion to spur violence, it's the nature of man to spure violence.

Deep

Well I believe it's not what bad people do to religion; but rather what bad religion does to people. Right now, you don't see Christains, as an example, decapitating others for being "non-believers" and video taping it for all to see. You don't see Budhists flying airplanes into buildings. You don't see Catholics blowing themselves up to kill others. And you don't see these things being commited in the name of God. None of those actions are justified by the Bible or other religious texts, that I'm aware of. However, the actions of "fundamentalist Muslims" are justified and supported by the Qu'ran.

I am sorry, but you must be unaware of your Christian Abortion bomber freinds; Waco; Oklamahoma; Sikh fundamentalists who blew up an Air Liner in Canada (single greatest attack on our country due to terrorism); The Japanese Buddhist extremists who decided to make thier self-written prophicies aware by gassing an entire sub-way; the Buddhist monks in South India who raid Churchs; Hinduteva in India; I could go on.......

This is just in recent history. We are yet to cover the last few centuries.

Deep

Originally posted by worldwatcher
Non muslims/Non Arab terrorists:

Most terrorist convictions are non-Muslim

Not all terrorism is Arab/Muslim

What about Jewish and Spanish Terrorists?


Columbian Rebels? Peta? EcoTerrorists? None of these are muslims or arabs, they are labeled are terrorists. Basque has been attacking Spain for years, they are not arabs. The Japanese Red Army, The Aum Cult, any of these ring a bell?

specific non arab terrorists: John Walker Lindh, Jose Padilla, Adam Gadahn
but we can go even further, I can say Meir Kahane was a terrorist, Fidel Castro is a terrorist, several Indian politicians are terrorists (Hindus),

you went right where i wanted you to. ecoterrorists. they are not arabs, they are, for the most part, not muslim, but they base their organization directly on the same sort of cell system used by arab/muslim extremist terrorists and they have the same level of dedication to their cause, to an extent. they do one thing different. they try not to kill people, but if people get in the way, too bad for them.