Ebola and Moral Panic

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Nechash
a reply to: ketsuko

Strawman? Where's Dorothy.

It's not a strawman. For all we know, this situation could exist. We are still within the incubation period for the contacts from the original patient in Dallas.

We also don't know if the Briton dies of Ebola, and if he did, we don't know how he may have gotten it.

I have to wonder how you would behave if you had this disease? Would you go to your family demanding they take care of you even knowing that you are probably going to infect them, or would you stay away from them to spare them? If you went to them and demanded they care for you and they turned you away, would you accuse them of "moral panic"?

Exactly and for most of history, when someone had a contagious disease, what did they do to stop the spread?

They Isolated them, it has ALWAYS been this way, and it works.........

Why the hell would people now days think its any different?

The Arrogance of people in the world now days will be its downfall......

originally posted by: Nechash
a reply to: FyreByrd



I wish I had more stars to give. You're doing virtuous work here, a true physician!

I would strongly disagree, and if there were anti-flags and stars to give I would give them. The OP is not doing virtuous work, the OP is misleading the purveyors of this site, and further spreading the lies of the administration in order to hide the magnitude of this crisis. The post of the OP is as much disinformation and government surpression of the truth as I have seen, from a left-wing communist supporting blog that should be banned as a source of INFORMATION on a conspiracy site (my opinion).

Commondreams.org is a political hack site that will be fully behind the current administration disinformation, a site that will give you whatever the masses need to follow the current administration blindly like lemmings off the proverbial cliff.

Panic is not what I am seeing. I see more OUTRAGE at the total indifference the government has to the health and safety of the average U.S. citizen, and further OUTRAGE at the failure of the MSM to dig deeper and expose the lies. The government, by their atttempts to hide the truth, in order to prevent the panic that will come when the truth comes out, is complicit in the coming deaths and destruction that will ensue by them allowing Ebola to get a foothold in the Northern Hemisphere.

This strain of Ebola is proving itself to be adept to spreading faster and farther by factors of a thousand more than any previous Ebola outbreak in history. And there is no slowing it down, and even the WHO and some people in the UN and governments in Europe are starting to acknowledge this.

Citing comparisons with the flu are misleading, as that is comparing a virus with a kill ratio of less than 2-5% (and mostly with already compromised persons) to a virus that has a ratio of 70% across the board (all people including the healthy).

Further, the flu is established everywhere, and therefore all populations have some form of established immunity...there is NONE of that with Ebola as it has never until now went outside very LOCALIZED outbreaks.

Even more, the flu's actions in cooler climates is well established to be more aggressive. Ebola is proven to stay alive for extended periods of time in laboratory settings, and stay active MUCH longer at freezing temperatures. This is IGNORED as people assume it is strictly a 'tropical' disease, where its ability to remain active on surfaces is greatly REDUCED. That assumption will prove to be deadly as soon as we give Ebola a testing ground to prove its ability to spread in cooler climates.

I believe Ebola will prove to be very aggressive, as agressive a a flu virus, as soon as we give it a real-world test in, let's say New York City, during the winter. Thousands will have the flu AND ebola at the same time even. Then we will see the REAL damage this virus can do to the human population!

Let's not forget it is ZOONOTIC - once it is here, it will NEVER GO AWAY.

UNLESS WE ACT NOW, and ACT AGGRESSIVELY, to prevent this calamity to the global population, this world will be forever changed to a more dangerous place.

This is why this should be a national emergency to EVERY government outside the tropical zones, before we begin a grand experiment testing the ability of Ebola to spread in the winter. What lives for only a few hours on a shopping cart handle, for example, parked in the sunlight outside the store in the summer, will still be there WEEKS after it is infected on that same shopping cart in winter.

Do we want to test this theory? then buy the comforting lies referenced by the OP. Go Ahead.

Ebola is a threat, and citing CURRENT statistics mean NOTHING. Ebola is still growing and doubling its grip on the populations of West Africa every two-three weeks, with no end in sight. The CDC has an embargo on news releases, many Western governments are joined in agreements to limit information.

Meanwhile, comforting real news is little to be had.
Where is Louise Troh and the rest of Thomas Duncan's family? Supposedly in a gated community, with no symptoms. Louise was very free to talk to CNN when they were still in ther apartment, now we get snippets of supposed 'statements' from the family. Their 21-day countdown is still going. If CDC wanted to quell panic, and they were INDEED symptom-free at this stage, we would be HEARING FROM THEM on every news station, especially with buddy Jessee Jackson wanting to trot them out as victims of discrimination. They would be poster childs of the exagerrated hazards of contracting Ebola, as well as the newest spokesmen for demonstrating the discrimination of the U.S. against blacks and specifically African immigrants. But...NOTHING. Why NOT???

The BEST resource the government has to stop panic - by trotting out the 'incorrect diagnoses' and the proof of the minimal dangers of 'proximate exposures' are NOWHERE TO BE SEEN.

We have yet to see interviews with the 'possibly exposed and infected' telling of their fear while they waited to get their confirmation of negative infections!!!

So ask yourself WHY the government is not using the best resource they have - the already exposed, possibly infected, to PROVE to us these hazards are overblown??? WHY???

Then ask what the OP is doing supporting this pile of disingenious garbage of a report? Government disinformation shill? Or simply drank the Kool-Aid and can't believe the government can do any wrong? That they wouldn't lie to us to keep the economy going, they wouldn't hide information to keep people at their jobs, they wouldn't lie to keep from trashing the precious Stock Markets.....they wouldn't want the public blocking their exits to the bunkers???

double posting...even though I think some need to hear it twice...I didn't mean to say it more than once....
Mods please delete.
Thanks.

a reply to: lakesidepark

Very informative.

I didnt catch it in your first post, but I appreciate the info very much. I hope the mods do not delete.

Regardless of what the truth finally comes out to be regarding Ebola, we should all view it as written in your post.

In this case, we should be terrified of the unknown.

The most concerning issue to me, and the FACT that keeps being ignored, is the ability of Ebola to stay alive on surfaces in colder climates for a very extended period of time. This has been proven in research, and is an undisputed fact about the virus. That one fact should give great concern about allowing it to spread into the Northern Hemisphere, with assurances it will be brought under control being based on similiar abilities in tropical climates, where it indeed will remain alive on surfaces, but maybe ONLY a few hours or days. That will be WEEKS and MONTHS in the north during the winter.

The NBC news reporter that is currently in isolation in Nebraska thinks he got it from WASHING HIS CAR!!!! Imagine that hazard waiting for us on any surface in the cold that has not been decontaminated - it will become impossible to track the sources of infection and isolate the potentially exposed. We will LOSE CONTROL of the spread of the virus.

That is the biggest disconnect in what the government is telling us. By using the 'tropical' figures to reassure the public, they are totally discounting what will happen in areas that stay below freezing for extended periods of time.

The second FACT about Ebola is that it can survive and infect our animal populations, but that FACT is being kept out of the public as well. It will get into our herds and farms, and into the wildlife, and we will not know what to avoid and how to prevent infections when we can get it from handling meat, from hunting, from kissing our dog....

Those two FACTS alone that are not being discussed are reasons to totally DISTRUST the government statements. And to distrust anyone, including the OP, that come on message boards with their beliefs that we are being panicked by fear-mongerers.

Sometimes it's just someone crying wolf. This time, the wolf is already in the barn, and people are trying to pretend it is a poodle.

Pathogen Safety Data Sheet - Public Health Canada

The CDC and Public Health Canada has done a good job of scrubbing their public portals of any possible 'fear-mongering' information. CDC scrubbed their site on September 14th, removing any references to 'aerosol' and 'airborne' infection possibilities, and have no references to hardiness in colder temps nor zoonitic vectors.

Appears Public Health Canada has not scrubbed this site. Read it, it substantiates everything I have stated in the above and in many of my other postings.

So, once again, get these facts straight:

Ebola will survive and thrive in cooler climates, and will contaminate surfaces...
Note the following quote from the above:

When dried in tissue culture media onto glass and stored at 4 °C, Zaire ebolavirus survived for over 50 days.

That is the temperature of your refrigerator, and warmer than your freezer,and a lot warmer than Michigan in the winter (and many other places her and further north BTW).

Ebola will infect our animal populations:
Note this additional quote from above:

Antibodies to the virus have been found in the serum of domestic guinea pigs and wild rodents, with no relation to human transmission. Zoonosis between humans and animal is suspected.

This Ebola is NOT the Ebola Zaire strain...it has already mutated from that past form and is considered a NEW pathogen, which means we do NOT have all the known facts about this virus. We cannot allow the governments to continue to reassure us by using their past experience. This Ebola has ALREADY proven it has a more aggressive infection profile, with a longer incubation, and those are major differences!

There is reason for concern. There is reason for PROTEST against the government for ignoring and allowing this catastrophe to begin to unfold. There is reason for PANIC if nothing is done to stop and isolate this disease to the endemic areas.

Anyone (including the OP) that says otherwise is either been mislead, working as a government disinformation agent, or is outright LYING TO US. That is as nice as I can be with this OP without crossing the lines of T&C and subjecting myself to an outright ban from this board.

I have done my part to inform people on this board, and I am sure there are many that will appreciate it.

There are many others that will deny it, some for fun, some for a greater nefarious purpose, and some simply because they live in some utopia and believe the government wouldn't lie to us just to save themselves.

I suggest everyone identify these people amongst yourselves now (co-workers, family, friends)...as they will be the ones that spread this widely in their mistaken beliefs that there is no hazard. Or worse, will protect themselves and leave the rest to die.

OP, please respond, and tell us which one you are - a true believer, an agent, or just having fun? If a true believer, please read my references. If not....nothing I can say that will keep this post on the board for you to hear it.

Here's a link to the story of one student nurse helping herself, her family and her village by eduction and not fear.

touch.latimes.com.../-1/article/p2p-81593863/

After helping her family, Fatu wants to spread hope, passing her knowledge on to other desperate families. She addressed workshops organized by the Ministry of Health, teaching people how to use plastic bags to protect themselves when there’s nothing else.

“I’m going to teach them the things I’ve already done, because I treated four people, and only one died,” she said.

originally posted by: FyreByrd
Here's a link to the story of one student nurse helping herself, her family and her village by eduction and not fear.



touch.latimes.com.../-1/article/p2p-81593863/

After helping her family, Fatu wants to spread hope, passing her knowledge on to other desperate families. She addressed workshops organized by the Ministry of Health, teaching people how to use plastic bags to protect themselves when there’s nothing else.



“I’m going to teach them the things I’ve already done, because I treated four people, and only one died,” she said.

Already countered by the news coming out of Dallas today. Full PPE didn't protect her, and you are proposing plastic bags?
One story from MSM with one 'questionable' example does not negate anything I said about the dangers that you have failed to address.

Good idea if you have nothing else, no hope, and faced with death everywhere. Not good idea to insure us in the U.S. are reduced to the same options....

This is your suggestion to explain why there should be no panic?

Leave it to a Cohen to misrepresent serious concern for a growing pandemic with an image of racism.

originally posted by: lakesidepark

originally posted by: FyreByrd
Here's a link to the story of one student nurse helping herself, her family and her village by eduction and not fear.



touch.latimes.com.../-1/article/p2p-81593863/

After helping her family, Fatu wants to spread hope, passing her knowledge on to other desperate families. She addressed workshops organized by the Ministry of Health, teaching people how to use plastic bags to protect themselves when there’s nothing else.



“I’m going to teach them the things I’ve already done, because I treated four people, and only one died,” she said.

Already countered by the news coming out of Dallas today. Full PPE didn't protect her, and you are proposing plastic bags?
One story from MSM with one 'questionable' example does not negate anything I said about the dangers that you have failed to address.

Good idea if you have nothing else, no hope, and faced with death everywhere. Not good idea to insure us in the U.S. are reduced to the same options....

This is your suggestion to explain why there should be no panic?

And you good sir are advocating panic and fear which does nothing to address any practical concerns.

In times of crisis panic and fear always cause more death and distruction then the afeared agent.

Panic at soccer games kills people, panic of a bank run kills economies.

To react clamly and SANELY in a crises of any type requires education. Unfortunately their are a few souls who can't help but panic but most can learn and be trained not to.

Doctors, EMTs, Nurses, military personal are all trained to remain calm in the midst of crisis and those that can't are weeded out.

I see it whenever an earthquake happens in SoCal. People just freak out. They live here and know earthquakes are going to happen but don't know what to do and are not prepared at all.

IGNORANCE is what it is and IGNORANCE kills in a crisis.

If you are afraid, learn how to avoid infection rather then sit there and say we have to kill them all - a bit of overreaction.

I know this is a speculative thread - imagining real possibilities that you could incounter will do more good they speculation about what GROUPS of people should do about it. Let the members of those groups do that speculation.

I am advocating PROTEST first!

We need to stop the incoming, protect our healthcare workers, and contain this problem to West Africa, whiloe we make every effort to help them WITHOUT endangering the population of the Northern Hemisphere and making this an endemic virus that will be with us FOREVER.

If PROTEST does not occur, and CHANGE in policies do not take place NOW, the PANIC will surely ensue.

That is a fact.

This thread and it's responses, thanx all, makes me think that a lot of people have never experienced panic. I'm not talking about panic in the 'public panic' sense but in the individual personal sense. That feeling of apprhension and nervousness that narrows your awareness of surroundings and options. That rushed feeling that floods the mind with feelings of impending doom and the need to flight or fight.

Surely people have felt this way, and acted under the influence of this personal 'panic'. Acted irrationally and against your own good under it's influence or maybe just made some bad decisions.

Now take that feeling, if you're a normally flawed human being, and multiply it by hundreds, thousands...

That one hasn't experienced (or been self-aware of feeling panic) this feeling is the only reason that I can think of for promoting panic.

Maybe it's because of feeling this way with it's inherent helplessness that causes the promotion of panic - maybe it gives a sense of power or control over a situation one feels powerless about.

I think of other possible reasons/causes but none that are very rational.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Maybe this will raise the panic level alittle.

Dr. Jane Orient, Executive Director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, reported…
EBOLA – “it’s very, very contagious, it only takes between 5 and 10 virus particles to infect a person. You don’t have to have cuts…there are receptors for the viruses in [people’s] normal skin.”

If it takes panic to raise the level of anger and protest, and STOP THIS MADNESS BEFORE IT KILLS HALF OF US so BE IT.

BRING ON THE PANIC.

originally posted by: guitarplayer
a reply to: FyreByrd

Maybe this will raise the panic level alittle.

Dr. Jane Orient, Executive Director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, reported…
EBOLA – “it’s very, very contagious, it only takes between 5 and 10 virus particles to infect a person. You don’t have to have cuts…there are receptors for the viruses in [people’s] normal skin.”

Why do you want to raise the panic level? It won't help with anything and could lead to mass hysteria.

Okay - you think not enough is being done. How will encouraging panic change that - those, with the knowledge and skills to RATIONALLY to addrees the issue will not be affected by any 'panic on the streets', they are too busy trying to deal with a serious crisis.

Austerity cuts in the US and elsewhere have cut staff and resources to public health across the board (listen to KPFK's Sojourner Truth with Margaret Prescot - there Ebola special that's been running all week) to hear just how ham-strung public health has been and the challenge of ratching up trained personnel and supplies and getting them to where they are needed.

If you want to lock yourself in your room with a shotgun, you are free to do so. But don't encourage others - remember yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre is not 'free speech' it's a crime.

a reply to: FyreByrd

You are going to suggest health department budget cuts caused this, therefore stopping transportation (using transportation budget to stop it) isn't still a good idea?

Prevent this additional burden from overwhelming the health department budgets?

Get real. Stop incoming from affected areas...stop unattended border crossings to further prevent entry of infections diseases...health department budget pressures relieved.

Don't slow it down...then suck out the remaining budget until even a broken wrist can't find a medic to wrap it...and panic will be assured with no resources left for the so-called 'rational thinkers' to fix anything.

IT IS TIME TO PANIC...so those 'rational thinkers' can feel the THREAT of citizen anger. Then they might do the RIGHT thing instead of the 'politically correct' and 'sensitive and caring' thing.

MORAL PANIC is what happens wien MORAL PEOPLE can no longer feel safe from IMMORAL LEADERS.
Quit trying to stop the panic, try stopping the incoming instead.

originally posted by: lakesidepark
a reply to: FyreByrd

IT IS TIME TO PANIC...so those 'rational thinkers' can feel the THREAT of citizen anger. Then they might do the RIGHT thing instead of the 'politically correct' and 'sensitive and caring' thing.

MORAL PANIC is what happens wien MORAL PEOPLE can no longer feel safe from IMMORAL LEADERS.
Quit trying to stop the panic, try stopping the incoming instead.

To what purpose? The people that have to deal with is issue, on the front lines - don't and won't hear you they are too busy.

How do you envision "MORAL PANIC"? What exactly is going to happen? Will it do any good?

What are you DOING not talking about but actually DOING and what is your intention for doing it? What is your intention for spreading panic? What do you hope it will accomplish?

Are you trying to force the IMMORAL to do what YOU think is right or what is actually useful and benefitical in the situation.

Can you answer any of those questions?

Or

1) do you feel like you are doing something productive and that lessens your fear?
2) do you want others to be as scared as you are?
3) do you want someone to save you from the Ebola monster (educate yourself?
4) do you just enjoy watching people freak out and behave dangerously?

I can imagine all manner of reasons for encouraging panic in others.

What is your motivation in this, truly.

I'm often scared of immpropable things that I fixate on (I'd tell you what I call that behavoir in myself, but you might be offended) and two things have helped me move beyond fear, anxiety and isolation. One is educate myself about the true extent of the danger, accept that I have little control over certain types of situations (earthquake, pandemics, hurricanes, tsunamis) and learn what I can do to protect myself and others in the event, however unlikely, such an imagination comes true.

And when I say educate myself, I don't mean listening to unqualified talking heads and their speculations, I mean finding solid sources by people who work in the field and have dealt first hand with them.

It helps with the fear. And, in the case of earthquakes, it's helped keep me safe - because I plan ahead and don't freak out when they happen - yes they are very scary. In an earthquake many of those the injured are as a direct result (though not the only cause) of panic and ignorance.

As I've said before if you want to hide in your room with a shotgun until this is over (for now) please feel free. No one can tell you that that won't protect you but I do suggest you think about DOING something constructive.
4) do you just enjoy watching people freak out and behave dangerously?

I guess I have not been truthful in my demands for panic, as I didn't describe the actions fully that I might believe would be necessary to correct this problem.

I do not suggest anyone fret and hide with a shotgun in their closet waiting for the all-clear.

I suggest the classic peasants with pitchforks and torches turned modern, protests, strikes, forcing the government to act with demands to close the borders and suspend the visas of people from endemic areas, establish protocols for the resources that will be needed to solve the Ebola problem THERE, and get moving with the expediency that Obola applies to his golf game (well maybe not that - but he spends more time working on that than our problems).

Demand immediate actions, and make them know that their efforts to keep the economy from taking a small hit will backfire. Yes, it will be messy. So will Ebola if it is not stopped, so choose your poison for the bad time you would prefer to have thrust upon you.

This may be the only power the people have left, is holding the economy hostage.

So, I should have added my comments to the "Ebola and Moral Protest' thread.

Sorry OP. Please carry on.

Opps - tommorrow...