The Solar System at Giza: The World's Oldest Book of Astronomy

a reply to: Ahatmose

Given the latitude of the Great pyramid was chosen because it is ~6.5 degrees to the ecliptic.
And assuming the Egyptians understood pi which should be self evident based on the clues given.
Then 11 would be to 9 as 9 is to 7.
And 73 becomes both a factor and an error correction code.

Now there is conjecture that the Egyptians might have used an even finer unit than the degree of latitude.
Lets pretend the Egyptians were really smart and knew someone would try to seek a finer resolution.
Given the ~365.25 days in a year it might make sense to measure a quarter of the way around the Equator to take advantage of the clockwork of the heavens.
The Egyptians would have known we would consider arc second resolution.
The meter was originally designed to be 1/10,000,000 th of that quarter of the Earths circumference.
If the Earth was a perfect sphere it wouldn't matter that we chose a meridian to subdivide by latitude.
There are 30.87 meters to the arc second latitude.
If you made multiple arc second observations and averaged them you could get much better than arc second resolution.

Keeping in mind that the Egyptians expect all this to be self evident.
Maybe we need to do more homework before dismissing the idea the Egyptians invented the meter?

originally posted by: Cauliflower
a reply to: Jarocal

That does not mean the person who makes the square base or the circle that fits in it knows about pi.

The obvious smoking gun for the knowledge of pi is the location of the great pyramid on the 30 degree line of latitude.
The Egyptians must have made the choice so that there would be 47 degrees of latitude between the tropics.
I do think the choice of the meter length to make the speed of light close to 300 million meters per second could be a kludge.

If the Great Pyramid was deliberately placed 2125 meters south of the 30th parallel by the Egyptians, then maybe the reason Odysseus spent 17 days on a raft in Homers Odyssey was that 17 is an important Fermat prime?

Oh wait that can't be, know one had the math skills more than 50 years BC.

There have been many different math systems developed which still have evidence in the historical record. They all vary. I was not insinuating AE culture was devoid of math skills, only that work can be accomplished without the understanding of the mathematical principle behind the task.

In a tangetially related situation, my stepfather is a master carpenter who never graduated high school. He had never heard of tthe pythagorean theorum but knew when he framed a wall if he measured 3ft from a corner one direction and 4ft the other way he better have 5ft between those points or the walls were not square. 30 years later when he decided to get his GED as a personal goal did he learn the equation behind what he had done for years.

originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
a reply to: Ahatmose

This is what everyone sees. Don't bother taking a hint. If it loads for you it's likely because you already have the image cached in your browser.

Ps: I'm trying to help you so I can see these images, not trying to deny they exist..

It was a joke.

Not sure why they are not working, i have tried it in three different browsers and not signed in and still they work fine for me ... any ideas what could be wrong ?

Have an idea ...

.

a reply to: Cauliflower

You're invoking the "Pyramid Inch" fallacy, which requires the Cubit to be 25.025 inches or 0.636 meters to work. There is a variation of the Pyramid Inch nuttiness that redefines the base unit of the GP as 500 cubits and its apothem as 400.

Apparently the Cubit is a magical measurment, growing or shrinking to conform to any sort of mathematical ratio desired.

Criticism of the "Pyramid Inch" and "Pyramid Cubit" as some means of measuring time and space:

Not surprisingly, these conclusions have been vehemently challenged on various grounds, including disputes about the actual measurements (which must infer the additional mass of missing face stones and capstone) and doubts about the length of cubit the builders actually had in mind. But if the above figures are accepted, a case can be made for the pyramid inch and the pyramid cubit as the ideal units of reckoning for both time and space. By basing the unit on the dimensions and orbit of the planet itself (assuming for the moment that the ancients knew these quantities), the Egyptians would have been measuring distance in fractions of the earth’s axis and time in fractions of the circumference―whose rotation equals a day―as well as fractions of the distance to the sun, which is the orbital radius on which the earth cycles once each year. Or, using the .4618 meter cubit, one cubit equals a thousandth of a second in the sense that the earth, at its equator, rotates a distance of 1,000 cubits per second.

a reply to: Ahatmose

ATS file upload may be buggy, if it is I always use Imgur.com as a fallback. I tried it in Firefox and Chrome and got the same file display error. (perhaps I shouldn't have said "everyone," obviously I can't possibly know that...)

Okay another test image below ... obviously using [pic ]image[/pic] is not working for me. ... I really have no idea why the images do not show. Are all my images missing ? The one below I used the direct link.

Its all playing with numbers and I really don't know or care if the builders of the pyramids whoever they were knew about Pi. What I do know is what my common sense tells me is they had a level of technology advancement beyond what the main stream tells us about thousands of slaves using bronze age methods. I have read enough information on Pyramids to be convinced they were built to align with celestial events such as a Lunar month.


Squared (1000 x Sqrroot 3) = 3000000
Squared (1000 x Sqrroot 2) = 2000000
Sqrroot (3000000 + 2000000) = 2236.067977499
2236.067977499 = sqroot [3000000 + 2000000)]
1 lunar month 354 dys 29.53059 x 12 =354.36708 days
2236.0679 x 354.36708 = 6.31033
6.31033/ 2 x Pi = 1.00432
3162.2776601683 = sqroot [Squared (2236.067977499) + Squared (2236.067977499)]
3162.2776601683/ 1.00432 = 3148.6753825159
3148.6753825159/1000 = 3.1486753825515
actual Pi = 3.141592653589
3.1486753825/ 3.1415926535 = 1.00225450263
1.00225450263 x 100 = 100.225540263
100.225540263 - 100 = 0.22540263 deviation

originally posted by: Ahatmose
Okay another test image below ... obviously using [pic ]image[/pic] is not working for me. ... I really have no idea why the images do not show. Are all my images missing ? The one below I used the direct link.

Here's another try below:

If anyone can see this image then we can discuss what it shows. Click on image below for a larger image.

.

originally posted by: Sahabi
There are many mathematical and astronomical considerations tied-in to temple and megalithic sites. The understanding of the ancients is awe-inspiring.

Here are some other pics to compare that may also overlay or slot in.

a reply to: Ahatmose

I see your image.

The dimensions of the great pyramid. Now lets see if I can work put Pi from its basic dimensions. If I do will someone send me box of beer.

Great Pyramid dimensions

Height

146.5 metres (481 ft), ancient

138.8 metres (455 ft), contemporary

Base
230.4 metres (756 ft)


Well the base is analogous to the circumference of a circle so I guess ill try add the base sides up first.

230.4 metres x4 = 921.6 metres

Now the height umm guess that might be analogous to the radius 146.5 metres

C= 2x Pi x R
Pi = C/2R

Plug in the values

921.6 / 2 x 146.5 = 3.145392491

Actual Pi = 3.14159265

By golly dash......

originally posted by: AthlonSavage
The dimensions of the great pyramid. Now lets see if I can work put Pi from its basic dimensions. If I do will someone send me box of beer.

Great Pyramid dimensions

Height

146.5 metres (481 ft), ancient

138.8 metres (455 ft), contemporary

Base
230.4 metres (756 ft)


Well the base is analogous to the circumference of a circle so I guess ill try add the base sides up first.

230.4 metres x4 = 921.6 metres

Now the height umm guess that might be analogous to the radius 146.5 metres

C= 2x Pi x R
Pi = C/2R

Plug in the values

921.6 / 2 x 146.5 = 3.145392491

Actual Pi = 3.14159265

By golly dash......

Unfortunately it is not quite that easy.

There are four different measurements for the base.
N = 9069.4 inches = 230.363 meters
E = 9067.7 inches = 230.320 meters
S = 9069.5 inches = 230.365 meters
W = 9068.6 inches = 230.342 meters

Mean = 9068.8 inches = 230.348 meters

Height can only be guessed at but my best guess is 5773.503 inches or 146.647 meters

After doing the calculations it could be Pi or Phi or 7/11.

Or could it be all three ? ....

Your guess is as good as mine. Petrie gave the angle of his best guess as:

N. face, weighted mean = 51º 50' 40" ± 1' 5"
S. face by air channel mouth = 51º 57' 30" ± 20"

Got from this data:

Casing stones, in situ, N. side, by theodolite = 51º 46' 45" = ± 2' 7"
(To 3 points on top and 3 on base.) by goniometer and level =51º 49 = ±1'
(To 3 points on top and 3 on base.) by steel square and level = 51º 44' 11" = ±23"
(To 3 points on top and 3 on base.) 5 overthrown by goniometer = 51º 52' = ±2'
(To 3 points on top and 3 on base.) 18 fragments, all
sides, goniometer (All above 2 inches in shortest length) = 51º 53' = ±4'
N. face, by entrance passage mouth = 51º 53' 20" = ±1'
N. face, by air channel mouth 51º 46' 45" = 51º 51' 30" = ±20"

And concluded with this:

On the whole, we probably cannot do better than take 51º 52' ± 2' as the nearest approximation to the mean angle of the Pyramid, allowing some weight to the South side. The mean base being 9068.8 ± .5 inches, this yields a height of 5776.0 ± 7.0 inches.

As you can see tricky business this trying to figure out the angle of The Great Pyramid and any meanings hidden within.

.

I've fully explained the "Pi in the Grerat Pyramid" fallacy multiple times here at ATS. Realizing that the search function here can be difficult, use this site-specific Google search to see why the ratio in question is exactly equal to 22/7, and why it's completely coincidental that it is near pi. I'm sure one of the returns in that search will take you to the real explanation.

Harte

After doing the calculations it could be Pi or Phi or 7/11.

If they had the mind to calculate a accurately a 7/11 base and height ratio on 3D object that's actually shows a clear comprehension of ratios, and fractions and the analogy of C/R = number would of clearly crossed their minds. The general viewpoint taken by skeptics is because they didn't find Pi written down anywhere therefore they didn't know bout it. I think their is enough evidence displayed in the ingenious geometry constructed to indicate they were aware of the ratio C/R = number. The question is did they ever get around to calculating it, I don't think anyone here or ever has provided persuasive arguments one way or the other on that.

originally posted by: AthlonSavage

After doing the calculations it could be Pi or Phi or 7/11.

If they had the mind to calculate a accurately a 7/11 base and height ratio on 3D object that's actually shows a clear comprehension of ratios, and fractions and the analogy of C/R = number would of clearly crossed their minds. The general viewpoint taken by skeptics is because they didn't find Pi written down anywhere therefore they didn't know bout it. I think their is enough evidence displayed in the ingenious geometry constructed to indicate they were aware of the ratio C/R = number.

The problem with this is that the Egyptians never considered their ratios as fractions, or even ratios.

The only "fractions" they knew were parts of whole, such as seven palms per single cubit. They had no mathematical system for doing operations with fractions in general.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: AthlonSavage

After doing the calculations it could be Pi or Phi or 7/11.

If they had the mind to calculate a accurately a 7/11 base and height ratio on 3D object that's actually shows a clear comprehension of ratios, and fractions and the analogy of C/R = number would of clearly crossed their minds. The general viewpoint taken by skeptics is because they didn't find Pi written down anywhere therefore they didn't know bout it. I think their is enough evidence displayed in the ingenious geometry constructed to indicate they were aware of the ratio C/R = number.

The problem with this is that the Egyptians never considered their ratios as fractions, or even ratios.

The only "fractions" they knew were parts of whole, such as seven palms per single cubit. They had no mathematical system for doing operations with fractions in general.

Harte

Nor did they think of angles in terms of degrees in radians. To them it was strictly vertical rise to horizontal run. That is what the seked defines, one royal cubit rise to x number of palms or fingers run. A royal cubit was represented as a forearm from the elbow to the fingertips in hieroglyphs, a palm was represented as a palm (7 palms equaled one cubit), and fingers, as you might guess, as fingers (4 fingers per palm, and 28 fingers per cubit). They simply had no way to express an angle except as a seked, and almost certainly never understood a relationship between a circle's circumference and diameter. If you look at the Great Pyramid, you see that the height was regarded as one cubit, it was divided by 7 (representing palms) which gives the heights of each internal core mastaba (6 mastabas + apex), it's height therefore could also be expressed as 28 fingers (and 280 cubits is the GP's actual height). The 'run', can be expressed as 5-1/2 palms or 22 fingers (each internal mastaba was setback one palm). Thus it's seked is 7:5-1/2 in palms or 28:22 in fingers (which reduces to 14:11).



The beauty of the seked system is how it enable them to build the internal structure accurately as well, it would be far too easy without such a system to build uneven or lopsided pyramids. You can see the system evolve through the Old Kingdom, from the mastaba pyramids to the step pyramids and finally to the true pyramids.

a reply to: Harte

There actually is No problem with this.

They would of used C = 6 x R
Let R =1 and C = 6
The deviation is C = 2 x Pi = 6.28318 - 6 = 0.28318

What they would of done is quite simple fit 6 pie shaped triangle into a circle, with each triangle have 60 degree corners so
I triangle = 60 + 60 + 60 = 180 degrees
and inside the circle there are 6 of these triangles equally displaced.

They are equilateral triangle and so that the radius of circle = side of the triangle faces that meet against eachother.
Set the radius = 1 and the circumference of the six faces that link to form an octagon is 6.

Now they would of gone and used a marked string or other method to measure the actual circumference of the circle with radius 1 that encloses the octagon, and for R = 1 , C = 2 x Pi. The don't know the value for Pi but it doesn't matter here because they are taking an actual measurement of the circumference.

They will measure 6.283 and use maths division on paper to work out the ratios 6/ 6.283 = 0.9549 and 6.283/ 6 = 1.04716

Therefore using these ratios they can work out the circumference of any size circle. For example if they want to know what the circumference of a circle is with radius 23.71 they use formule

c = 6 x R x 1.04719 = 6 x 23.71 x 1.04716 = 148.968
now we use in contemporary times

C = (2 x 3.14159) x 23.71 = 148.974

Looking at the accuracy of their pyramid stones placing indicates they could of met accuracy to three placing after decimal point. Therefore this accuracy leads to 148.968/148.974 x 100 a 0.004% error against modern calc.


Therefore its a ruse getting into arguments about the ancients knowing Pi because they did 100% knew how to accurately work out the circumference of a circle for any given radius. The Pi argument is a red herring in these debates about ancient knowledge. That's because they simply knew how to do thing we do but in a different way that was just as effective. Id certainly like to see modern man repeat feat of building giza Just to see how good it compared against their efforts, I personally wouldn't be placing my bets on modern.


The numbers people should be searching for in Giza is 0.9549 and 1.04716.

originally posted by: AthlonSavage
a reply to: Harte

There actually is No problem with this.

They would of used C = 6 x R
Let R =1 and C = 6
The deviation is C = 2 x Pi = 6.28318 - 6 = 0.28318

What they would of done is quite simple fit 6 pie shaped triangle into a circle, with each triangle have 60 degree corners so
I triangle = 60 + 60 + 60 = 180 degrees
and inside the circle there are 6 of these triangles equally displaced.

They are equilateral triangle and so that the radius of circle = side of the triangle faces that meet against eachother.
Set the radius = 1 and the circumference of the six faces that link to form an octagon is 6.

Now they would of gone and used a marked string or other method to measure the actual circumference of the circle with radius 1 that encloses the octagon, and for R = 1 , C = 2 x Pi. The don't know the value for Pi but it doesn't matter here because they are taking an actual measurement of the circumference.

They will measure 6.283 and use maths division on paper to work out the ratios 6/ 6.283 = 0.9549 and 6.283/ 6 = 1.04716

"Maths division" that they did not possess.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

They had the mathematics ability of division and multiplication because They would need it to be able to create measurement scales and the ability to not only create, the scales but to use them, and convert from one scale to next. You need scales when building just like the would use a sun dial to measure angle of sun from length of shadow. They fully understood angles and scales.

Of course division is actually only a form of multiplication

1 lot of Unit A = 2 lots of Unit B

Halve of B = Unit A

or alternatively twice of Unit A equates to Unit B.

Of course they understood the principal of multiplication and division, and anyone with analytical capability who understands the principals needs will be capable of multiply or subdivide. Hey but people should believe what ever they feel most comfortable with, but for me its not the main stream taught ideas.