Persistant water on mars

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Char-Lee

I had a vague recollection earlier in this thread. 93 pages in , ill bet that wasn't easy to find

good memory you have there matey

funbox

Well I have never stopped being curious as to this phenomena so i had it marked. I don't think the shaking fits to well when looking at this one. I never could enlarge.


mars.jpl.nasa.gov...

This is great work, but I want to point out that the moving could be an illusion set by the moving shadows.

a reply to: funbox

They seem similar to some of the lines seen on the ground in places.

a reply to: Char-Lee

enlarging is not bringing up the trail makers unfortunately, well none that I can see



funbox

a reply to: darkbake

I agree , shadows can be a tricky thing , weaving many a lie to the truth of movement

a fixed line on the screen should help you distinguish easier

funbox

Vibration would explain the tracks, I didn't think of that.

A vibrating particle may never roll, so it can make a wide track as it is forced by the vibration to move through the dusty surface.

a reply to: ArMaP


this next rotating gif made from the picture Nataylor discovered from sol 282 give us a great idea of the vibrational effects .



files.abovetopsecret.com...



them small stones get really shifted about by the looks

funbox

Couple of crawlers heading toward the joystick:
mars.jpl.nasa.gov...

a reply to: Blue Shift


could we be about to witness a potential hijack?

funbox

wildespace -

There is a layer of dust and trails left by mineral grains due to vibration and perhaps wind.

Come now, the wind is not going to move anything at all larger than a sand grain. As well you know and have told me in the past. Vibration ? The rover is the size of a vw beetle so unlikely to vibrate much. If it did, then NASA are in danger of pieces falling off Curiosity (again?) (remember the white shiny thing which was supposed to be a piece fallen of the wiring loom?)

The instruments are bolted down pretty securely, do we really think that vibration will be a possibility? To me it sounds like a convenient explanation.

If you asked me for a really way-out opinion, I would say that the Martians are starting to look for ways to dismantle Curiosity very much like I suspect they did with Spirit and the previous rover. Opportunity has so far managed to escape that fate.

nataylor (page 3)-

As these particles move, the push some of that fine dust to the sides, leaving a "streak."

What is 'pushing' these clumps along? Wind is not. Vibration is probably not, so what else could?

Good to see all the level-headed regulars popping up with explanations to keep us anomaly-hunters in check.

Now that we have found these, there must be more examples everywhere.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
Couple of crawlers heading toward the joystick:
mars.jpl.nasa.gov...

"TO MARS TO EXPLORE"? That's the best they could do? Sounds like Tarzan-speak. "Go space now. Up in sky".

And the curved path of the crawlies, was this a vibration too? Hmmmm. Me go now. Eat food.

a reply to: Aleister

maybe they were expecting someone to read it so they put it in BLOCK caps , kinda like the English colonist shouting at the natives, whilst they look on in bemused but knowing silence

and lets face it , there doesn't look like theres enough room to write

" EXPLORING FOR NOW< BUT LATER WERE COMING IN HUGE SHIPS TO COLONISE AND RAPE YOUR LAND OF RESOURCES,"


those two trails look like they've come to reinforce the 3 blobs, that joystick best have some kind of security lock out, I cant envisage what ill do if they crash the thing and there's no more pictures

funbox

originally posted by: qmantoo
wildespace -

There is a layer of dust and trails left by mineral grains due to vibration and perhaps wind.

Come now, the wind is not going to move anything at all larger than a sand grain.

Martian wind can be strong enough to move sand grains. We've seen plenty of dunes and sand/dust piled up against rocks. In certain regions, seasonal winds are strong enough to transport sand up the dune slope.

I'd imagine that some vibration would travel through the rover, despite everything being attached securily. Plenty of pieces of machinery we use in industry vibrate slightly when working. It doesn't mean they are going to come apart. Transmission of vibration is a natural property of most materials, especially metals.

~~~

You have a talent for being difficult.

a reply to: wildespace

so why wouldn't them same vibrations , vibrate the lighter particles back into the trails ? or are we looking at that 2% binding power of water?

the trails just look a little too clear , the vibratory forces cant be enacting upon the lighter grains and filling in the paths again. albeit there's less gravity up there , 'im sure grains and tiny particulates would adhere to it still

funbox

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: wildespace

so why wouldn't them same vibrations , vibrate the lighter particles back into the trails ?

Perhaps because it's the slightly-magnetised iron oxide dust that sticks to metal surfaces?

a reply to: wildespace

static cohesion..? maybe..is there potential to build up a big enough charge a fry the rover?

hope its well grounded

funbox

Reply to Wildespace

Martian wind can be strong enough to move sand grains. We've seen plenty of dunes and sand/dust piled up against rocks. In certain regions, seasonal winds are strong enough to transport sand up the dune slope.

If you read what I said, I acknowledged that the you all say that the wind is strong enough to blow gand grains and smaller. Why do you repeat what I say? We are considering if it is possible for the wind to blow larger objects and according to you lot, it is not. I am sure you do not want me to refer you to the wind thread again where we had long discussions about this!

I'd imagine that some vibration would travel through the rover, despite everything being attached securily. Plenty of pieces of machinery we use in industry vibrate slightly when working. It doesn't mean they are going to come apart. Transmission of vibration is a natural property of most materials, especially metals.

I accept that vibration travels through machines. Thats obvious. What we are considering is whether vibrations could have caused these trails or not. Why do you state the obvious but do not make it refer to what we are discussing? Always references to generalised arguments, and almost never to specific topics we are discussing. Are you saying that in your opinion you are more than 70% certain that vibration or wind moved these objects to cause these trails? Lets have some actual opinion of your belief rather than lots of could/should/maybe/perhapses can we?
~~~

You have a talent for being difficult.

If difficult means getting at the truth, in spite of folks trying to move the discussion from the specific to the general, then yes. Thank you. I may not get it right all the time, but I try to investigate the unexplained.

a reply to: qmantoo
Let's not get hung up on what I said before, because I admitted I was mistaken, and I think the actual information is more important than what someone once said on this forum. If you're searching for truth, consider the available data (or the absence of it), such as the transportation of sand across the martian surface, or the fact that water or any unusual level of humidity has never been detected by Curiosity's instruments.

~~~

Sand grains come in varying sizes, some can be fairly large. I have no way to tell the size limit on what the martian wind can move, but I can accept that it can move fairly large grains of sand or bits of rock. (Having said that, at the UMSF forum they sometimes examine the close-up images of the various formations and estimate the grain size; perhaps they could do so for the grains that make up the dunes, or the grains found on the rover's surface.)

~~~

Wind is just one possible cause for those trails on the rover, the others are vibration from shaking the sample holder, and from the rover's movement across the terrain. And yes, that's what I think caused those trails. You seem to want to be in a punch-up with me over something you're imagining. I'm only proposing most the possible causes for those trails, that's all.

originally posted by: funbox
static cohesion..? maybe..is there potential to build up a big enough charge a fry the rover?

I've pondered that, as well. I kind of expect someplace as dry and dusty as Mars to be fraught with all kinds of static electrical build-up. But with that generally comes static discharge in the form of little (or big) sparks. My question is, what else is necessary for the discharges to happen? Is some kind of water in the air needed to allow conductivity? I tend to think so. But I don't think there's enough free water in the air to make that happen. Then I look at things like this:
mars.jpl.nasa.gov...

... and it looks just like condensation trails in dust like I get on my car in the morning. Dripping down, carrying dust particles and leaving them in little dirty piles. It's a puzzler.

Doesn't look like water droplets to me.

Looks a lot more like the trails left by some kind of living organism, at least to my eyes.

Martian micro snails?