The Philosophy of Entertainment, Pornograpy, Sex, and the Evolution of Virtual Reality

This is going to be a heavy topic - take it seriously. Recently and for no other reason than that I was getting bored with the science fiction I could find on the internet and because some post I saw stated there were now porno sites [free] not infected with spyware and because this is a subject i had lost interest in many years ago when I was much younger, I clicked on one of the recommended sites......Only a real philosopher would feel a need to comment and for awhile I suppressed this urge thinking most here would not be interested and the subject has been covered here before. But while I found some [not much] of what I saw to be at least slightly exciting and even aesthetically pleasing [occasionally] some of what I saw made me wonder why it was legal? - should people be allowed to torture each other, possibly even sustaining physical harm? Are there no limits to what can be shown as art? The Supreme Court years ago more or less gave up on defining obscenity and gave a green light to pornographers with the possible only exception involving minors under 18. And then last night I saw something that has now motivated me to post. What I saw, and found most interesting, was three people, two females and one male engaged in [I will not describe the acts as it may be inappropriate] whose net result can only be described as pure unmitigated lust! Yes, I have no doubt that they were enjoying themselves and I found the whole twenty minute show very entertaining. Here i saw something that I never experienced and might not even want to experience - And yet I did in some ways experience it, as an observer. And then I got to thinking what do we experience in entertainment? When we see a mobster aren't we for a moment a mobster, hoodlum, cowboy, priest, politician, or starship captain. Soon as computer intelligence evolves we my soon be able to experience a 'virtual reality' that will feel real - We will be able to experience states of existence beyond our wildest imaginations. Should there be limits to this? Should there be some controls over the 'cyber jungle'?

Recently two adolescent girls stabbed and almost killed one of their girlfriends because of an internet character called the 'Slenderman". And I might ask how many other cases like this are occurring? How many women are being raped and/or possibly murdered because 'BDSM" [bondage and sadomasochism] sites are promoting torture [I don't care that some people want some pain but one might think there should be a line that distinguishes it from torture that may be dangerous and harmful] of women for someones sick sense of art and pleasure?

I like erotic art and am not against what some might call pornography - But as virtual reality now becomes more sophisticated I ask you as a civilized human being, should there be limits? "What is the law? Are we not Men?"

And should there be some limits to what is shown and produced as 'entertainment"???

yes, interesting observation but do you have a question you need answered or just wanting to share your non philosophical porn time?

I'm not really a porn type of gal myself. There are many reasons and since the question isn't if I approve, I'll skip it.

I think adults should be allowed to do whatever they please with each other as long as they aren't hurting anyone else. They can hurt themselves any way they want to and call it whatever cliche flavor of the month name they like... I could not care less.

Dress up like PeeWee Herman, with a weakness for pixie sticks, Flip flops, cuffs, and mecca lecca high... mecca hiney ho!! You got yourself some boat floating going on. Good for you. In this world one should grab whatever happiness they can, when they can.

I need to keep saying that as long as they don't hurt anyone else... I can't stress that enough.

I can think any number of things are taboo, disgusting, sad, depraved, and so forth... But I'm not the consenting adult in the room, so they do not need my opinion on their personal journeys to pleasure.

I'm sure I may do any number of things that would make your grandmother swoon just thinking about it.

Different strokes and all that junk. Pun not intended... Kind of.

As far as it being available for public perusal? Again... I don't have to watch it. I don't have to click the link. If other folks think sweating to the oldies with Richard Simmons while dripping hot wax on each other is worth a moment of sharing and caring??? Who am I to deny it?

Those who will argue that allowing this isn't something we should do because kids can see it... Maybe we should argue about why a child is being allowed to be on the internet alone long enough to have this pop up and view it at their leisure. If they are old enough for that type of responsibility, I can pretty much assure you, that they have heard and or seen something equally appalling to your sensibilities. It's not the fetish freaks responsibility to raise your children or mine.

Did/does it piss me off when people purposefully post it where they know kids will surely find it?? Damn straight. It infuriates me but it is sadly almost impossible to keep your children from seeing everything no matter how hard you try. Then again... I was 7 when my brother and I ran across our first Playboys. It seems almost unavoidable no matter what technology you use or didn't use.

This is the same as the legalizing drugs issue... People either partake or they don't. If they do, they will find it regardless of how scrubbed some try to make the internet. And taking part in bondage (and other painful acts) or viewing it is not going to make normal folks become criminals or want to kill simply because they watched a free 2 minute video of kink.

Nothing on the net makes normal folks/kids stab their friends either. That's the psychopathic tendencies. Not porn, creepy pasta, or how to videos. People are either sick in the head or they aren't. Dora The Explorer often had me wanting to hurt innocent folks (kidding... sort of). Her voice and map song could trigger anyone just as much as anything else. After about 1 minute I was hoping Swiper would swipe her face clean off but alas...

JMO of course and YMMV as usual.

I have watched the Web grow from its humble beginnings and watched the spread of porn.

I always wondered how we would protect young children, but the world did not want to.

It should not have been that hard to separate the Web into two parts, the WWW and the XXX but no one was interested. Oh yes, many will say, it is not possible and there would always be ways for kids to get around it but then, no one actually tried. Buying a child's computer that could not access the XXX part would have been a godsend but there was no money in it and there is very big, huge money in porn.

Now, you cannot surf the web without getting ads and deliberate misdirections to porn sites.

In my country, two young teenagers, swapping nude photos of themselves are arrested and face trial for child pornography. Yet, those same children can access some truly disturbing images and they do not have to try very hard. They will simply stumble on them.

I have never seen porn that shows the sexual act to be kind and loving.

We are falling into the same debauchery that seems to be the signal for the ending of a empire.

I feel for the children, unable to grow up without seeing this crap.

Please, do not give me the standard excuses about kiddy filters, they simply do not work.

There is some truly sick porn out there and it should be avoidable but sadly, it is not.

At least our civilization could have made an effort.

Then, when a country does its best to block it all, they are called totalitarian and other such labels. Well, good for them.

S&F

P

a reply to: Kangaruex4Ewe

I need to keep saying that as long as they don't hurt anyone else... I can't stress that enough.

My point exactly! The lust scene I mention did not in the least bit bother me - might even be glad to see what I might never experience and assuming they were in good general health probably would do them no harm. BUT some of the BDSM stuff i causally glanced at was sometimes another tale - people were actually torturing someone and even showed marks of phyysical damage to the victim - Should we as civilized human beings allow this? Are the Chinese right after all in censoring the internet? Hopefully we do not have to resort to this. Pornography is a wild art form and will produce some interesting art - Maybe the sites should clean up their act and use some rule of thumb to define limits of decency - such as do no harm.

originally posted by: AlienView
a reply to: Kangaruex4Ewe

I need to keep saying that as long as they don't hurt anyone else... I can't stress that enough.

My point exactly! The lust scene I mention did not in the least bit bother me - might even be glad to see what I might never experience and assuming they were in good general health probably would do them no harm. BUT some of the BDSM stuff i causally glanced at was sometimes another tale - people were actually torturing someone and even showed marks of phyysical damage to the victim - Should we as civilized human beings allow this? Are the Chinese right after all in censoring the internet? Hopefully we do not have to resort to this. Pornography is a wild art form and will produce some interesting art - Maybe the sites should clean up their act and use some rule of thumb to define limits of decency - such as do no harm.

I have run across what you are talking about even as an adult who was not looking for it. And I completely understand what you are saying, because I sat with my mouth agape wondering just wth I had seen.

BUT.... We as civilized beings should also realize all adults aren't the same and some enjoy Mr. Rogers while others may enjoy Ron Jeremy with switches. Again... It's different strokes. I wish it wasn't anywhere where children could see it or get to it, but I can't also forget that parents need to work in being aware if what their children are looking at online. What those people do is legal (in most states) and they are consenting adults, so I can not shut them down just because what they do makes me uncomfortable and it's something that I would never do.

In my mind, it's not really a lot different than a lot of the rap songs, video games, and even rated R movies. My gut reaction is only telling me it's different because of my views on it as opposed to my views on some of the more risqué Hollywood movies. When the word "porn" is inserted into the equation, the reactions will always be more felt in the gut and receive more knee jerk reactions.

Kids can find the beheading videos and many other things on liveleak that have made me gag and kept me up at night after I was stupid enough to watch them.

Sex is the only thing that makes any of that different (not accounting for the brutal beheading/violence videos) and based on that criteria, I can not advocate one being shut down and so many others not. I'm hoping that makes sense. In a (my) perfect world, that stuff wouldn't be flowing far and wide. Censorship is a huge issue with me and one that I often think would result in that slippery slope we all know and love.

All in all, I have to stick with allowing consenting adults who are only hurting each other for their own pleasure being able to do just that no matter how vile some find it.

a reply to: pheonix358

I have never seen porn that shows the sexual act to be kind and loving.

We are falling into the same debauchery that seems to be the signal for the ending of a empire.

I feel for the children, unable to grow up without seeing this crap.

Not quite true. In fact having become an overnight connoisseur of the art - I avidly search for just those scenes where there is at least a touch of love shown between the participants - It does happen - and there are educational scenes that might have merit to normal couples.

As far as the exposure of it to children; One, there are some controls and two, it might also be argued that children are endlessly being exposed to an ugy hostile world where beheadings in the name of religion are often on the news - Children are being exposed to an obscene and vulgar world and pornography is usually less obscene than the evening news. Historically Man has an obscene and murderous history - sexual license seems far less obscene than the murder and mayhem man is guilty of

a reply to: AlienView

it might also be argued that children are endlessly being exposed to an ugy hostile world where beheadings in the name of religion are often on the news - Children are being exposed to an obscene and vulgar world and pornography is usually less obscene than the evening news.

We could at least try!

We could also ensure that those beheading videos can't be viewed by children but .........

sadly we have never tried.

Society sucks!

P

a reply to: Kangaruex4Ewe

In that vain, I have to stick with consenting adults who are only hurting each other for pleasure should be allowed to do just that no matter how vile some may find it.

Yes, I agree. Some of that stuff seems to be enjoyed by the participants who will even give a speech at the end of the video saying how and why they enjoyed it - different strokes for different folks. BUT there are some people who might derive pleasure in killing someone - should we allow this? Should we allow people to do serious physical harm to themselves or others? I know it may be difficult and the courts gave up on it long ago - But it seems to me the pornographers themselves should 'draw a line in the sand' - we go this far and no further. No kiddie porn, no snuff films, and no films that may cause damage to the participants.

a reply to: pheonix358

Well said.

I have always found pornography unethical.

This was a topic on last nights recording of Out of the Box, and I agree that there should be lots more restriction on the internet and the separate kids computers and appropriate www /xxx should have been implemented from the start.

We are in the civilized world, we are civilized because we have rules and standards,and because we are ethically responsible and we all have a responsibility for ourselves and our sphere of influence.

There should be major campaigns to fix the internet into an appropriate, responsible, constructive facility, as it has the potential for steering the evolution of humanity.

a reply to: pheonix358

I think the idea of separating the internet is genius. Absolute genius and I wish that they would work on making that happen. Not just for kids either. There are plenty of adults out there (like myself) who would use it as well. I am no prude by any means, but it would be nice to not have to worry about what is popping up at inopportune times while you are surfing around.



I would actually be willing to bet that a lot of adults would prefer it that way as well. How'd you get so smart??

It never even crossed my mind that separating the net would even be possible.

a reply to: theabsolutetruth

I have always found pornography unethical.

Really? And the ethics of religion? How many beheadings will it take to satisfy their ethics. How many people did the church torture and burn alive in the name of god? And all the while the witches held their sabbats celebrating a horned god of nature who said life if for the pleasure of living, not for a mythical god of war, death, and destruction.

And yet the war for man's soul goes on and I have just begun to fight - And yes, even the art of pornography should be guided by some ethical paradigm - When is it art and when is it a crime? No easy answer here.

a reply to: AlienView

Straw man arguments?

I said:

I have always found pornography unethical.

Yeah really!

This isn't a discussion of religion or anything else so save that for another thread.

And they are worried about their children - the horrors of seeing sex. But vampires, werewolves and slenderman is in - kids love it. Sick, sick, sick, a sick world run by sick people playing off the vulnerability of man's stupidity - Don't they understand the nature of their sickness? Their wars of death and destruction, their violent entertainment, their morality of hate and vengeance, the pure sadism of their history - maybe they have already been beheaded. Five, six thousand years have passed and the Holy Land is still very un-holy. Why can someone say there will be a thousand pornographers in heaven before one religious human gets there? But I grow cynical of a world I can not understand, of a race of beings that would deny the inner joy of physical existence so given just to satisfy a mythical god who also grows weary to think he created such a dumb creature.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: AlienView

Straw man arguments?

I said:

I have always found pornography unethical.

Yeah really!

This isn't a discussion of religion or anything else so save that for another thread.

No, I'll save it for this thread - I started it. You bring up ethics in an world where ethics seem based upon who is writing or defining them - and always for their benefit. To say pornography is unethical is without merit - in fact it is ridiculous - What form of entertainment is based upon ethics? Oh yes, those old westerns where the 'good guys' always won over the 'bad guys' - fantasy having little to do with reality except in the Armageddon of religion - another excuse for people to kill each other
- how very ethical.

a reply to: AlienView

I believe pornography is unethical.

It isn't a matter of comparing it to how ethical other things are, it is my opinion.

If you want to know my opinion on the ethics of other things, it won't be on this thread.

Yes, I hope someday there is a www / xxx separation.

I don't really like to watch it but it's just sex on film, really what's all the problems about.
We all have done it, we all have those parts, nobody is being forced or coerced(though it happens and that is a separate issue). It's a natural biological function, such as going to the bathroom and now a days both men and women are objectified pretty much the same way.

I just don't see the big deal, is it wrong to watch our reproductive heritage through the lens of entertainment?
It's up to the person looking and there are many ways to shield your computer from seeing these things so it's not like it's out in public on a billboard.


I need to also add this can coincide directly with immersive type video games, where there is reckless killing and suggestive themes. Eventually as I understand it, we will be in total immersion almost taking on the personalities of such a character as in a 'Hollow Deck' type experience but IT IS NOT REAL. If someone has the trouble differentiating the two, then that is another topic altogether, but some will like to experience these virtual based scenarios as doing them for real would be dangerous or not available in our normal mundane lives.

a reply to: AnteBellum

In your reply you state the obvious that a lot of people replying do not. It is acting! You may not believe it(though there are a few real and it is a few) but it is acting. As for the idea of a separate web it cannot happen. When anyone buys a computer the computer itself cannot tell whether an adult is using it or a child. The ONLY way to keep children from accessing any sites is to physically watch them. Therein lies the problem. I can virtually guarantee that all of you with children have left them alone to play their games on the net. It is a very deep rabbit hole when you call to censure any activity, it can start you on the slippery slope of state control. When you give the people in power the go ahead to limit what people can watch, what people can do They use those powers for their own ends. Have you not learned the lessons of giving your government small powers that they enlarge them to control you. I have no need to list the indignities you are suffering having to fight just for your amendment rights.

originally posted by: crayzeed
a reply to: AnteBellum

In your reply you state the obvious that a lot of people replying do not. It is acting! You may not believe it(though there are a few real and it is a few) but it is acting. As for the idea of a separate web it cannot happen. When anyone buys a computer the computer itself cannot tell whether an adult is using it or a child. The ONLY way to keep children from accessing any sites is to physically watch them. Therein lies the problem. I can virtually guarantee that all of you with children have left them alone to play their games on the net. It is a very deep rabbit hole when you call to censure any activity, it can start you on the slippery slope of state control. When you give the people in power the go ahead to limit what people can watch, what people can do They use those powers for their own ends. Have you not learned the lessons of giving your government small powers that they enlarge them to control you. I have no need to list the indignities you are suffering having to fight just for your amendment rights.

One thing that distinguishes pornography from other entertainment art forms is that it is real - true sometimes the participants are exagerating the act but if it is X rated there is obviously a real sex act taking place. When you watch anything else from murder mysteries to science fiction it is all acting and fantasy made to appear real.

Until a Supreme Court ruling somewhere back in the 1960s or 70s carnal complete sex acts were censored under obscenity laws - that has changed. The problem I see though is now that anything goes and with no limitations on what can be shown is that, yes your keeping government out of your entertainment life, but how about the psychological influence pornographers are having on you and how you think - You might have a sound mind that can distinguish right from wrong but others do not - How many psychos whose minds are unbalanced to begin with might be pushed over the edge to attempt taking scenes of torture to satisfy their urges? Remember that guy Castro who kidnapped three women and held them as sex slaves until they got free? I wonder if porno influenced him? Of course the same could be said about mainstream movies on murder, etc.

On the other hand I can remember the same year I saw 'The Exorcist' [mainstream horror classic] and 'The Devil in Miss Jones' [a porno classic]. To me the only truly obscene of those movies was The Exorcist - a horrible nightmare masquerading as art.

a reply to: AlienView
I can partially agree with you but no matter what is shown or what not there are and always will be psychos. There will always be a trigger to tip them over the edge. As for violent movies,tv programs or video games(this is a pet argument of mine) I cannot agree that these are the catalyst for psychotic people committing crimes. Why should violent images lead to violent behaviour. The people responsible are already twisted. I site for you the biggest undocumented example. The second world war saw millions of men, women and children subjected to every inhumanity possible so by the definition above after the war there should have been thousands of violent crimes committed ie. exposed to violence you will commit violence. But there was not. So how does that compute. I keep meaning to start a thread on that subject but am always too busy.