State Trooper Shoots Unarmed Man

Well, that is shockingly wrong. He deserves all the prison time he gets. The second shot he was visible without any weapon and by the 3rd his hands were raised over his head. The officer should have confirmed (seen) a weapon before shooting imo. I have seen a lot of stuff over my years, including illegal shootings. The thing is people are not going to trust the police and it will lead to worse and more frequent shootings.

And people wonder why blacks say they ran because they were scared. I used to think it a lame excuse, but if this was what I grew up seeing (dash cams are relatively new) I would run too if I was afraid of being shot and killed for pulling out my ID or Wallet.

originally posted by: eriktheawful

originally posted by: Quantum_Squirrel
another horrible video showing a cop gunning someone down for no reason..

may i ask our american friends....

I have been to the U.S on numerous occasions ( from UK) and we are always told that if you get pulled over to not move and follow every command or they will shoot , we are told to not reach for anything as this will get you shot?

Is this not the case here? he asked him for his licence and as probably any normal person would do reached for it inside the car i'm not advocating this in any way the few videos recently have been disgusting... but don't you guys get told the same thing? don't move and don't reach for anything?

Q

Yes. I was taught this a very long time ago:

If you get pulled over by LEO, simply stop your car, row down your window and place your hands on the steering wheel where the LEO can see them.
Be polite. Not confrontational.

When asked for Drivers License, Registration and Proof of insurance, tell the LEO where it is. (IE, Yes sir. My driver license is in my back pocket, I have to get it out. My registration is in the glove compartment. I have to reach over and get it.).

I do this all the time when I get pulled over (not been pulled over a lot, but enough). I always ask "Can I get it for you?" and each time the officer has been polite back and told me okay.

The other thing I was taught was: do NOT make sudden movements. And I don't. I slowly reach for these things, trying to keep my hands in view as best as I can.

Once I have the items and have given them to the LEO I place my hands back on the steering wheel where he or she can see them.

Why?

Because I was taught that the cops in most cases are more scared of you, than you of them. And, that means you have a SCARED and ARMED individual. So I take great pains to make sure that this ARMED individual knows I'm not a threat to them.

As some have said: The cop wants to go home from their job. Well so do I.

I was also taught to not argue with the cops. Even if I don't agree with the ticket they are going to give, etc. Because arguing will not do you any good, and is only going to tick them off even more.

You want to argue? Fine. That's what the court date on the ticket is for: it is for you to be able to go argue in front of a judge. Not on the side of the road with an armed individual who has a book full of tickets they can give.

Was the cop in this video right? No. Absolutely not. The man that was shot was simply doing as he was told: he was getting his license.
His mistake was not telling the cop first that he needed to get it out of his car. That still didn't justify what the cop did.

But, unfortunately, cops are taught that anyone that does what this guy did, might be going for a weapon, and enough cops have been killed in situations like this that cops are taught to approach someone as if they are armed.

It's really, really sad. But that is the reality of it.

So thats how it is in the "land of the free"? You have to live in fear of your police?

Doesn't sound particularly right to me.......

a reply to: TorqueyThePig

Good analysis. Procedure not followed leads to these incidents. Had he followed standard procedure we wouldn't be discussing this today.

a reply to: crazyewok

Having lived all around the world, I was taught to respect any LEO.

Never had to deal with them in S. Korea. I did meet them in Thailand though, they were polite and helpful.

In Italy, I dealt with the Polizia and Carabinari. Both were polite as was I. Especially with the Carabinari standing there holding a machine gun.

Even if I was in England and a cop who was unarmed was addressing me, I'd still be polite, not make sudden moves and do my best to put the LEO at ease.

Even unarmed they could still arrest me if I made them angry about something.

Doesn't mater where you live. LEO are human beings, just like the rest of us. They have emotions. They have good days and bad days. They have good moods and bad moods.

Are you saying where you live if one acts like a jerk, argumentive, or even starts yelling at the cops you don't run the risk of them deciding to arrest you?

Even if I thought my constitutional rights here were being violated by LEO, right then would NOT be the time to argue about it. That's what the court system is for.

Again: what this cop did was wrong. But I do understand why he did it. He was nervous and over reacted. That's because cops are humans too. They make bad decisions or can have their judgement affected by emotions (afraid, angry, upset, annoyed, etc).

The problem is: when cops do these things and go unpunished for them, and are instead protected instead.

Too many times we have seen that when a cop does something wrong, they don't get punished like a civilian would for the same thing. Instead, just about all stops are pulled to to try and protect them. Excuses are made, or they receive a slap on the wrist.

If instead LEOs that do wrong were instead punished just like a citizen would be, instead of being able to hide behind that badge and brotherhood of cops, hopefully you'd see a lot less of it happening. Either because they now know that their actions will finally have a consequence, or simply because those that can not keep it professional are no longer walking the streets.

originally posted by: eriktheawful


Having lived all around the world, I was taught to respect any LEO.

Im not talking about respect. Im talking about fearing for your life when around them. Huge difference.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
Doesn't mater where you live. LEO are human beings, just like the rest of us. They have emotions. They have good days and bad days. They have good moods and bad moods.

and lethal force should not be at the whimes of there mood.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
Are you saying where you live if one acts like a jerk, argumentive, or even starts yelling at the cops you don't run the risk of them deciding to arrest you?

Big difference between being arrested for acting like a jerk and being summarily executed for being a jerk.

One gets you a night in jail the other gets you well dead.

Im not saying you should be a jerk, dont know what part of my posts said you should be a jerk?

What im saying you should have to be in fear of your life around police.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
Even if I thought my constitutional rights here were being violated by LEO, right then would NOT be the time to argue about it. That's what the court system is for.

Again that does not make summarily executing unarmed people right.

Thats something you expect in North Korea not a country that call itself "free".

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
a reply to: The_Truth_Seeker

And to think people STILL would rather have cops be armed and the populace unarmed......blows my mind

Exactly!

When is the last time a CCW holder did something like this?

"You gave me the wrong change!!! Bang-Bang-Bang-Bang...Now where's the rest of my money?"

originally posted by: eriktheawful


Because I was taught that the cops in most cases are more scared of you, than you of them. And, that means you have a SCARED and ARMED individual. So I take great pains to make sure that this ARMED individual knows I'm not a threat to them.

As some have said: The cop wants to go home from their job. Well so do I.

More and more, this is the excuse police use when trying to justify shooting a citizen. "I feared for my life", "he reached into his vehicle, and I feared he was getting a gun", and so forth. This same situation unfolds on the news day in and day out. Examples are easy to find. This incident, an old man pulled over and told to get out of his truck, he then reaches over to get his cane and is shot, old man in his garage with a gun checking out noises outside when cops come around the back of his house and shoot him, the cops were at the wrong house on a 911 call. It seems to never stop.

I understand the cops want to go home from their job, and having fear and understanding the risks, is what keeps you on your toes. But be honest, did these police who took the job not realize there is an inherent danger in their chosen career? If they are so scared that they have no problem shooting a woman, or a man who has presented no indication of a risk, or choke a man for selling 'loosies' in broad daylight, while more officers pile on causing death by asphyxiation, you may have chosen the wrong career.

We all know and have met "good cops", but we have no time to honor them, because so much time is spent dealing with "bad cops". The cops that say nothing are just as guilty. Speak up and you will earn our respect. Remain silent, and the problem will continue to fester. This back and forth and lack of trust between each party, has got to end sometime.

So how do we fix this? More laws? Increased scrutiny of police actions from outside the police community? Parents and adults taking responsibility for their actions, and those of their children? Better training, and higher standards for police recruits? All of these and many more? I just don't know.

I watched this video, and the Walmart shooting. Neither of these shootings should have happened. Our country is in bad shape when SWAT raids are used for minor warrants, especially when 92 year old women are killed in their own bed, because the police took the word of a criminal rather than staking out the residence for 1 or 2 nights to make sure they were doing the right thing.

I'm scared, not for my safety, but for our country. We have to fix this problem soon.

a reply to: retiredTxn

I suspect our courts and politicians are afraid that holding police (more) accountable would lead to police policing less.

originally posted by: weirdguy
a reply to: The_Truth_Seeker

wow, what a wanker. I hope the cop gets the full 20, the court needs to set an example of this guy.

If the prosecutor doesn't just nolle pross the guy outright, they'll do a crap job pursuing it because the police unions and the system in general has them over a barrel. If they prosecute a cop aggressively, the other cops stop cooperating with later cases.

What needs to happen is a separate office for prosecuting cops that is incentivized to put the cops away, instead of one that's incentivized to not.

originally posted by: Char-Lee
Looking at all the pictures here it looks like a nice area, no graffiti no garbage. My husband always unfastens his seatbelt as we turn in places, maybe I can get him to wait if i show him this.
www.wistv.com...

Unless you or he are black, there is nothing to worry about.

originally posted by: halfpint0701
Im curious as to where his missed shots landed and glad one didn't find it's way through a car window and into a kid.

Imagine if it had been a white kid?

a reply to: crazyewok

Nor did I ever say that I ever "feared for my life" when interacting with cops. Go back and look.

I said instead: I do everything I can to put them at ease.

What you did after my post was give a snarky reply about "the land of the free".

So I explained: cops aren't robots. They are human. Humans make mistakes. Humans can be over come by emotions. Even the best training in the world can sometimes not overcome those emotions.

In a perfect world, cops wouldn't make mistakes. In a perfect world, cops wouldn't have to fear someone when pulled over for a traffic violation is going to try to shoot or hurt them (because they know they have a warrant for their arrest, or think that the cops are after them).

In a perfect world, no one would be shot. No one would be stabbed. No one would be killed.

But the world is not perfect. And neither are the citizens in it, nor the cops.

Still does not excuse this officer's actions.

But, before you get up on your high horse again, you might want to think about it. yes I do live quite free. I can do what I want, so long as it does not hurt anyone else. And no, I don't live in "fear for my life" when it comes to the cops.
I simply ensure that any actions I take while pulled over are not going to cause a situation.

In a perfect world, I wouldn't have to worry about that.

But, the world is not perfect.

a reply to: eriktheawful

Having lived all around the world, I was taught to respect any LEO.

To most Americans, cops have lost any respect they once had. The whole rhetoric of how their job is so dangerous and they leave the house every day not knowing if they'll return is, in my opinion, what they say to justify shooting innocent, unarmed people now.

The reality is that being a cop doesn't even make the list of top 10 most dangerous jobs.

According to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, 111 law enforcement officers died in the line of duty in 2013. Thirty-three of them died as a result of gunfire, while 46 officers died in traffic accidents.

The leading cause of death for a LEO in 2013 was traffic accidents. And the majority of the deaths were from things that are illegal for ordinary citizens such as not wearing a seat belt, texting, and distracted driving.

Statistics show traffic-related deaths have been rising since the 1960s, even while overall law enforcement fatalities have been declining.
In a 2011 report, the International Association of Chiefs of Police called the deaths "unacceptable," and made a number of recommendations. Among them are increasing driver training for new officers, adopting policies to reduce texting and other distractions, and to conduct research on speed of law enforcement officers as well as fatigue as a factor in fatal officer crashes.

Link

a reply to: halfpint0701

You are correct in the fact that there are other careers where more people die in a given year.

However those deaths are usually due to accidents and a vast majority of them could have been prevented if proper safety procedures were followed. The same goes for officers who die in car accidents.

That being said how many of those who died in other careers were murdered while performing their duties? And of those murdered in other careers what is the number of people who work those jobs compared to the number of law enforcement officers.

In 2013 thirty three (33) officers were killed by gun fire, two (2) were stabbed, five (5) were killed by vehicular assault, and one (1) was killed by a bomb.

www.odmp.org...

That equates to about 3.4 officers being murdered in the line of duty a month.

So while law enforcement isn't on the top ten list for having the most deaths on the job I am willing to bet that there are more murders per capita than most other professions.

Matter of fact per the government in 2013 the career with the highest number of on the job murder victims were retail workers. Sixty six (66) out of 4.5 million employees were murdered. In law enforcement forty one (41) out of 780,000 were murdered.

www.bls.gov...

www.bls.gov...

www.bls.gov...

That still equates to a low chance of being murdered in the line of duty. However being a police officer you are a target and never know when someone will try to harm you. That goes for any career though.

So I can see why this officer was jumpy and nervous, however it does not excuse his actions and I do feel that he was in the wrong. Most officers on the policeone forums agree. You can see this by reading their comments.

www.policeone.com...

That being considered I don't think the officer is guilty off intentional attempted murder. I don't think he stopped the guy with the intention of shooting him. Charges for criminal negligence, improper use of firearm, and being stripped of his certification, sure. People screaming for life in prison or the death penalty give me a break. Criminals who intentionally murder and rape receive less punishment.

This just further proves why I do not want to be a police officer anymore and I urge anyone else who does to reconsider. 20 to 50 years ago sure, things were different.

a reply to: IslandOfMisfitToys

Isn't there enough racial tension without race-baiting?

MLK jr. would shake his head at the way some folks have made the race/victim card their moniker. It's akin to spitting in his face.

a reply to: TorqueyThePig

Although the Government does not keep statistics on convenience store killings, state and local police departments say they have become more and more common, especially in the faster-growing states, where convenience stores have joined the gasoline stations, fast-food chains and discount stores that form the infrastructure of suburban sprawl. Here in Florida about 10 percent of the 316 inmates on death row were convicted of killing people in convenience stores. From August 1989 to August 1990, 13 people were killed in convenience stores: eight clerks, three customers, a passer-by and a holdup man. 'Leery of Everyone'

NY Times
Just to try to keep things in perspective.
The govt doesn't keep records on it, but there are jobs out there where the risk isn't from accidents.... but being murdered by the same criminal element that can kill police officers, but more often will kill someone that is not armed or trained like a police officer.

It appears the citizens are to feel they are under the treat of death at a traffic stop so they must stay in vehicle, hands up, etc. At that point the person is to respond instantly to some manic yelling often misleading commands which failure to obey to the police satisfaction also results in being shot or beat and charged with resisting. Nice system, boys.

Just more of the 'get on the ground' BS mentality.

a reply to: butcherguy

Oh no I agree completely. I still wonder the percentage per capita of each career though. Regardless the chance of being murdered in America is really not high for anyone, even police officers.

That being said I think a lot of people use the statistics of careers with more people, dying of mainly negligent accidents to insinuate that law enforcement is not a dangerous job.

a reply to: roadgravel

I agree situations like the OP should never happen and the officer was in the wrong.

Dang I feel everytime I post in this thread I have to reiterate the fact that I feel the officer was wrong, kind of like someone saying, "I'm not racist, I have black friends" in a racial thread.

That being said what is the percentage of things like this occurring compared to the number of traffic stops conducted each year. I would venture to say the statistics are pretty low.

a reply to: TorqueyThePig

I am pointing out the fact that people are being put in the mindset of being very careful and guilty of a crime at traffic stops to keep from being killed. This is sad. I also think the police go overboard, IE: the get on the ground crap with people who are no threat.