BREAKING: Video Finally Released of Cops Shooting Man with a Toy Gun in Wal-Mart

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: Spider879
Come on the cops didn't stop to think did no assessment and made no move to disarm him without use of deadly force,they compound this by lying after the fact plus I can see this happening in NYC were you don't have that right to openly carry around weapons but their state do,so even if they got a call saying there is a guy is a gun the mind set should have been yes folks carry guns,if they got a report saying the man was unstable ,again they should have told the man to lay down his arm and get on the floor,what did they do?? rushed in Bang Bang bang! it was incompetence pure and simple and they deserve to lose their badges and not allowed to become dog catchers.

The phone call recordings disagree with you but don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.

In what way??

If you read the thread instead of being so quick to hit that reply button to add your 2 cents, you'd already know.

originally posted by: greydaze
a reply to: Answer
So how much does FOP pay you to troll here?
Don't know who I hate more PIGS,or PIG apologists..

I don't give a damn about cops. I give a damn about facts and the actual story instead of what the media and a bunch of cop-hating morons present as the truth.

The only people I've met who hate cops are folks who are constantly in trouble... but it's never their fault for breaking the law, it's always those "damn pigs."

There are multiple fails in this situation.

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed

originally posted by: Answer
a reply to: Answer
The lengths people are going to in order to excuse Mr. Crawford of any fault are just ridiculous and transparent.

They are.

Take ANY random person (who is not a gun nutter maybe) and show them the footage. (Maybe don't tell them that he actually picked up the gun from the stand with the ALLEGED intention to purchase is).

I, as someone non-biased...cannot see any "normal" behavior on this video...AND PRETTY SURE THE CALLER/WITNESS DIDN'T EITHER.

I see a guy with a very realistic looking gun behaving very oddly in a public place. I see him "loitering" and wandering around with a gun, there is NO INDICATION that this is a person who would like to purchase the gun. He has no cart, he didn't ask a clerk to box/bag the gun, he didn't put the gun somewhere like any other sane person with a IQ > potato would do. He does NOT look like someone shopping, in fact he is spending 8+ minutes in this footage (5+ mins of this alone standing in a corner in one single place, and indeed "pointing" the gun randomly at stuff, putting it over the shoulder etc..)..NOTHING in the slightest indicates this is a shopper who intends to purchase this gun, nothing.

Any witness who sees the same scene will think the same thing. And any witness/caller who would call 911 concerned about this would be entire justified.

Calling the caller "murderer" is just entirely absurd. No effing witness EVER will be 100% accurate. Not here, not a witness of a car accident or burglary. They will report, often falsely (yes, indeed!) and often subjectively/emotionally. They will report what they BELIEVE they see.

Pro Tip: Don't act like a brain-amputated moron in a public space...and IF YOU DO...don't be surprised that it may have consequences, such as a witness calling 911 and ERRONEOUSLY reporting stuff which is not actually the case. But this is NOT the witness's/caller's fault, it's entirely this moron's fault. Neither the witness/caller nor the cops "knew" this is a BB gun or did know about the guy's alleged intention he wanted to purchase this gun. How should they? Watch the effing video and tell me this looks like a guy who wants to purchase a gun, fake or not. Seriously, ridiculous.

You are right, the caller was reporting something that worried them. .

My problem is with the cops. Shoot first and ask questions later is NEVER ok!

But cops get away with it all the time because of PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

ONE innocent person being killed by the cops is too many. ONE.

Police took their jobs knowing there is a risk that they could be injured or killed.
They are paid to PROTECT AND SERVE the public, not their own asses.
A cop DOES NOT have the right to kill anyone unless that person is a CLEAR and PRESENT DANGER.
You don't get to just assume that someone is, you have to be right.

If I shot and killed someone in Wal-Mart that was playing with an airsoft rifle, I would go to PRISON.

I believe that cops should face the same punishment as we do if not worse. If they make a "mistake", they need to go to prison like all the other people that make "mistakes".
Then there would be something called ACCOUNTABILITY. And we wouldn't be reading these horrible stories on a daily basis.

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

SO, you're implying that EVERY 911 call should be taken as fact, and common sense should never come into the equation until what the caller has described is dealt with swiftly? As if no one has ever made a false police report or 911 call?

That is absurd. It should be the D U T Y of law enforcement to Identify! Then, Assess! And then finally, to Act!

Not go straight to ACT, and then try to wait out the initial outcry while getting your story straight, before officially going on record...!

No, I'm not saying that. I did say that the cops were at fault for the same thing. Not assessing the situation. Don't ignore things in order to push your agenda. They need to show up to the call and assess it. They are at fault, but they wouldn't be at fault if it wasn't for the caller.

I'm not ignoring anything. Had you read my reply, you would realize that I was asking a question to determine if I understood what you were saying, properly!

And, I have no agenda, other than to discuss this issue to the fullest extent of my intelligence, in the hope of discovering a potential solution, to what the vast majority of us, perceive to be a problem!

If I misunderstood you, and we are in fact, on the same page, a simple, "hey! I agree and your perceptions missed the point of my post!" would have been fine...

I am not absolving the caller of wrongdoing, by any means! But, the fact remains, that law enforcement should NEVER accept a 911 call at face value, and should ONLY use it as a TOOL to do their jobs! That's what it was designed for in the first place! A Tool to allow them to gain more information than simply patrolling.

And, the more I read and hear about this particular story, the more it seems like we had a cop thinking, "I'm gonna be a Hero", that reeks of a self-aggrandizing, savior complex!

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

SO, you're implying that EVERY 911 call should be taken as fact, and common sense should never come into the equation until what the caller has described is dealt with swiftly? As if no one has ever made a false police report or 911 call?

That is absurd. It should be the D U T Y of law enforcement to Identify! Then, Assess! And then finally, to Act!

Not go straight to ACT, and then try to wait out the initial outcry while getting your story straight, before officially going on record...!

No, I'm not saying that. I did say that the cops were at fault for the same thing. Not assessing the situation. Don't ignore things in order to push your agenda. They need to show up to the call and assess it. They are at fault, but they wouldn't be at fault if it wasn't for the caller.

I'm not ignoring anything. Had you read my reply, you would realize that I was asking a question to determine if I understood what you were saying, properly!

And, I have no agenda, other than to discuss this issue to the fullest extent of my intelligence, in the hope of discovering a potential solution, to what the vast majority of us, perceive to be a problem!

If I misunderstood you, and we are in fact, on the same page, a simple, "hey! I agree and your perceptions missed the point of my post!" would have been fine...

I am not absolving the caller of wrongdoing, by any means! But, the fact remains, that law enforcement should NEVER accept a 911 call at face value, and should ONLY use it as a TOOL to do their jobs! That's what it was designed for in the first place! A Tool to allow them to gain more information than simply patrolling.

And, the more I read and hear about this particular story, the more it seems like we had a cop thinking, "I'm gonna be a Hero", that reeks of a self-aggrandizing, savior complex!

It's a possibility that the guy wanted to be a hero. He'd be involved in another shooting a few years ago. It was a domestic abuse charge or something, and he killed the attacker because he was running after his wife trying to harm her.

When it comes to something that involves a gun, I think most officers will probably take the call at face value because of the events/mass shootings/etc that keep happening, but that's just my opinion, and it could be wrong.

It is just sad that so many people accept this as normal and okay. Believe it or not, there are police officers that do not overreact and shoot people. The ones that do are either cowards or just itching to shoot someone.

We have a local officer where I live that went on a call to someone's house. The suspect came out with a shotgun and shot at the officer. The officer took cover behind his car and talked to the guy. The suspect went back in his house and put the gun down and came back out with a large knife. The officer walked close to the suspect and continued to talk to him and calm him down. The suspect came towards the officer with the knife and the officer BACKED AWAY. The officer calmly talked the guy into putting down his knife and took him into custody without back up and without pulling out his gun.
The paper interviewed the officer and asked him why he didn't just shoot the suspect. The officer stated that is always a LAST RESORT. The officer stated that he was not put on this earth to take people's lives, he was here to protect people.

I wish that story had made national news and that more officers were held to those standards.

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

SO, you're implying that EVERY 911 call should be taken as fact, and common sense should never come into the equation until what the caller has described is dealt with swiftly? As if no one has ever made a false police report or 911 call?

That is absurd. It should be the D U T Y of law enforcement to Identify! Then, Assess! And then finally, to Act!

Not go straight to ACT, and then try to wait out the initial outcry while getting your story straight, before officially going on record...!

No, I'm not saying that. I did say that the cops were at fault for the same thing. Not assessing the situation. Don't ignore things in order to push your agenda. They need to show up to the call and assess it. They are at fault, but they wouldn't be at fault if it wasn't for the caller.

I'm not ignoring anything. Had you read my reply, you would realize that I was asking a question to determine if I understood what you were saying, properly!

And, I have no agenda, other than to discuss this issue to the fullest extent of my intelligence, in the hope of discovering a potential solution, to what the vast majority of us, perceive to be a problem!

If I misunderstood you, and we are in fact, on the same page, a simple, "hey! I agree and your perceptions missed the point of my post!" would have been fine...

I am not absolving the caller of wrongdoing, by any means! But, the fact remains, that law enforcement should NEVER accept a 911 call at face value, and should ONLY use it as a TOOL to do their jobs! That's what it was designed for in the first place! A Tool to allow them to gain more information than simply patrolling.

And, the more I read and hear about this particular story, the more it seems like we had a cop thinking, "I'm gonna be a Hero", that reeks of a self-aggrandizing, savior complex!

It's a possibility that the guy wanted to be a hero. He'd be involved in another shooting a few years ago. It was a domestic abuse charge or something, and he killed the attacker because he was running after his wife trying to harm her.

When it comes to something that involves a gun, I think most officers will probably take the call at face value because of the events/mass shootings/etc that keep happening, but that's just my opinion, and it could be wrong.

Personally...I believe that it is always a huge risk, when a Dept. decides to place an officer back on a regular duty roster, after they have taken someone's life! Granted, his prior shooting sounds like he made the right choice. But, No psychologist, can accurately say whether the nightmares and demons involved with a deadly shooting have been properly dealt with, or have even fully manifested, yet! There are too many who have been through it, that have spoken candidly about the extent that it changes one...

It's just a huge risk...

a reply to: moonleaf

While that is a heart-warming story, based on the facts as you have presented them, I feel that if the officer, in that situation, did not even pull his weapon out of it's holster, then he may be quite incapable of shooting/killing anyone.

And I don't believe that is what we need from our officers, either!

originally posted by: Grimpachi
These cops are shoot first wussies.

I and many soldiers have been in zones where you couldn't distinguish friend from foe and yes there was the danger we could be fired upon at every turn or encounter. How is it that police on US soil have less fire discipline than we did in a foreign land?

If we had opened fire on every person that had a weapon making the slightest movement the country and soldiers of this nation would be over their heads buried in war crime violations. When I see videos like that it makes me think I need body armor more in the US than when I was overseas.

1000% correct. Can't even remember all the times we were just waiting for the rules of engagement to be met before we could defend ourselves.

Im pro gun, pro cop, and pro 'merica ..... but this was horrible and unnecessary.

a reply to: Answer

Where in the video did you see him turn and point the toy at them? He's standing there, and then he falls, he didn't have time to turn and aim.

a reply to: GoOfYFoOt

Its not anymore risk than anyone else. Most the times when a police officer shoots someone they aren't doing it because they wanted to kill someone today or are mentally unbalanced. 99.9% of them would just be happy to go to work and do their work all day without ever having to get into a situation where they had to pull their weapon. There are some cops who have a nose for stuff fixing to happen, and unlike most people they end up in situations where they need to fire, or kill someone. Other than if they acted poorly in the past, their past has nothing to do with what they will do in the future.

originally posted by: Royal76
a reply to: GoOfYFoOt

....their past has nothing to do with what they will do in the future.

Malarkey! Their past, not only defines them, it is a very good indicator as to how they might react to similar situations in the future!

The only way your statement would be true, is if the subject were a sociopath! And, God only knows how many of those wear a badge...!

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I dunno if it's the cops that should have their badges taken away, however, the guy who called it in should be on trial for sure. I was asking when this first came out, why didn't the guy assess the situation? In our world, if someone is walking around with a gun and they are waving it around, people will panic. Almost always they will panic anyway. No one in the video was panicking.

I was thinking about that. If someone HAD acted like they were uncomfortable, maybe he would have gotten the message that it isn't a good idea to be carrying a gun replica around in a store. The whole situation might have been avoided if people weren't acting cool.

The guy just called. I mean... Yeah. The cops are at fault for the same reason, they didn't assess the situation. But.. They were just following the call they were given, right?

And yes, you're right. Ohio is open carry, so even if he did have a gun and he was walking around with it, he still shouldn't have been shot dead.

The problem here is that the caller said he was waving it around, that he was loading it, and that he was pointing it at children. When that happens, all protection from open carry is gone.

It does look like he was waving it around a lot, and I can see how at one point it looks like he might be trying to load it. The caller should have mentioned that he had been standing in one place for a long time not doing anything.

originally posted by: ArmyOfNobunaga

originally posted by: Grimpachi
These cops are shoot first wussies.

I and many soldiers have been in zones where you couldn't distinguish friend from foe and yes there was the danger we could be fired upon at every turn or encounter. How is it that police on US soil have less fire discipline than we did in a foreign land?

If we had opened fire on every person that had a weapon making the slightest movement the country and soldiers of this nation would be over their heads buried in war crime violations. When I see videos like that it makes me think I need body armor more in the US than when I was overseas.

1000% correct. Can't even remember all the times we were just waiting for the rules of engagement to be met before we could defend ourselves.

Im pro gun, pro cop, and pro 'merica ..... but this was horrible and unnecessary.

Same here but I become a bit less pro cop every day. I wasn't kidding when I said I think I may need body armour again. If this keeps up it might become fashionable here.

Cops have killed well over 5,000 Americans since 9/11. Many of these killings have occurred during no-knock raids, which have risen by 4000% since the 1980s.

Iraqi insurgents, by comparison, have killed around 3,500 Americans in Iraq since 9/11 in Operation Iraqi “Freedom.”

It is not just Iraq. The number of Americans killed by police also now exceeds the number of Americans killed by Afghan insurgents.

Afghan insurgents have killed around 2,000 Americans in Afghanistan since 9/11 in Operation Enduring “Freedom.”

The police are getting paid with our money to go on shooting sprees and they are killing more of us than the terrorists from whom they are supposed to “protect” us.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Great points man.


I can't help but wonder what the cutoff age is for these cops to murder someone in Wal-Mart. I mean what happens when some idiot 14 picks up an air rifle and goofs off around the store.... does he get whacked too?

AND when does Wal-Mart become responsible for having open items that cause a person to get murdered?

It's a strange new time we live in.

a reply to: ArmyOfNobunaga

This keeps up then I am definitely moving to Central America. There are a lot of reasons for that, but I think I can safely say at this point it is even safer there.

Except Honduras that place is off the charts violent.

a reply to: FraggleRock

If the facts were as clear as you want to make them would the Justice Department waste their time? Though I'm sure this will be another thing we disagree on.

According to the written statement regarding the DoJ involvement, the only reason that they are getting invlolved at all is for a civil rights investigation because the family raised the possibility of a racial slant to the incident. They will investigate any and all relevant reports, people who were involved...including the jackass who called 911 and made it sound like there was a hostage situation going on up inside the local WalMart, every witness who was there, etc. because they are bound by law to investigate any reports of a person's civil rights being violated. They're not investigating the validity of the shooting itself; that has already been done.

The fact of the matter is, several sides contributed to this guy losing his life. Including his own actions. As horrible as it is that he was killed, had he never picked up the weapon in the first place he would likely still be breathing the same oxygen as we are right now. WalMart was culpable as well, for two obvious reasons: one, they left something available for anyone who walked by to grab and walk away with that should never have been sitting out in the first place, and for two, they obviously neglected to send their employee through the required classes on properly handling a situation like that should one arise. Then of course, you have the cops, quite obviously believing the worst because of what was being relayed to them by 911 dispatch (via the aforementioned jackass) and acting accordingly, out of emotion and not rational thought, which is a recipe for disaster. All of that added up to a volatile, and tragic, chain of events.

As has been repeated ad infinitum by a member of the forum, only to fall upon seemingly deaf ears, the behavior of the young man directly contributed to his own death. Had he not picked up the weapon in the first place, none of this would even be a topic for debate. Does that mean it was all his fault or that he deserved it? No, and not one person has stated anything like that here. It was a tragedy that could have been avoided. And it could serve as a valuable learning tool for people if they'd stop playing the blame game long enough to pay attention to the lessons being taught.

Bashing on someone for pointing out the obvious error in judgement made by the young man is just silly. It is obvious that had he been walking around on the phone sans the gun in his other hand, no one would have felt there was any reason to call 911. It's simply a fact that he called attention to himself in a negative way by doing what he did. It's not a justification for his death and I don't think anyone has tried to insinuate any such thing so far on this thread.

a reply to: ArmyOfNobunaga

AND when does Wal-Mart become responsible for having open items that cause a person to get murdered?

WalMart is probably ecstatic that the focus of all this is being thrown on the incompetence of the police, because if there are enough people distracted by the cop angle, the stunning stupidity of the people running the sporting goods department in that store will just slip unnoticed through the cracks...absolving them of all liability. And they are getting their wish too, because it's working.

Make sure all guns sold in the store are sold in boxes and signs that make sure they stay in the box while in the store.

You can only really not look like its real when its a basket or cart, a box would solve this issue. Unless the gun is a neon colored water pistol or somthing but even then if its real looking in anyway a mandatory box would totally help.