How Can Jesus Be God?

The same way the burning bush was God.

I would refer you to Exodus 3.

We are told the angel of the Lord appeared in the burning bush, but when the talking is done, it is all God. So God is the burning bush is the angel of the Lord is God all at once. Are you telling me this same entity cannot also be Christ?

Are you telling me that a being who transcends space and time cannot be anywhere, anywhen, anyone He so chooses, as He chooses? This is the concept of the Holy Spirit after all that it is a small part of the divine in all of us that we choose to embrace or deny.

a reply to: MamaJ

One of the most pleasant posts I've ever read on ATS...

Appreciate the insight vastly...
I suppose we'll always have our own philosophical standpoint to assist our beliefs & faiths...

Thanks Mama

a reply to: ketsuko

That's a very unique piece of philosophy...

Very interesting my friend!

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Jesus is everything that is form or sensation. Father is everything awareness or understanding. The Holy Ghost is everything will, spirit, function, ability.

Think of everything, literally everything, as having a mind, body, and spirit.

God's mind/awareness is Father, God's body/form is Jesus, God's spirit/will is the Holy Ghost.

Try looking up the trinity......

He isn't. Jesus last words. "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." That is not a claim of being God In the bible it also says that god said not to worship any gods before him. So worship of Jesus is not permitted. Jesus said follow his path, walk in his footsteps. Never asked for worship of him.

originally posted by: roth1
He isn't. Jesus last words. "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." That is not a claim of being God In the bible it also says that god said not to worship any gods before him. So worship of Jesus is not permitted. Jesus said follow his path, walk in his footsteps. Never asked for worship of him.

Those words, like all words attributed to Jesus, were written by someone who didn't live when Jesus allegedly lived and never heard him say a thing.

There isn't an iota of contemporaneous documentation (ie. historical evidence) proving that Jesus ever lived. That pretty much means he's another mythological character. IF you're looking for logic in myth, you're not going to find it. It's like arguing over whether Humpty Dumpty's son also sat on a wall, had a fall, and couldn't be put back together by all the king's horses and men and, thus, was also Humpty Dumpty--or not.

LOL you a barking up the wrong tree here, I am not a believer. I only made statements on what i have read.a reply to: Tangerine

Is it ever legal for one person to sign a contract for another? If i give you my proxy then you have my power.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

As-selamu Alaykum Brother Chuck- Guess what? You are too! So am I, the "other You" You are 'The Creator' who is working their way "back from whence You came" back to "The One Infinite Creator"

ALL the religions™ are 'different' that makes them the 'same' so take what is the 'same' and the Truth will be revealed. Not only does this relieve One of 'dogma' but it also rids any 'fighting' of who has the "best" religion™ Whether it be Muhammad, Vishnu, Jesus, Gilgamesh, Lao Tzu (messenger) What was the message?

Every "body" each 'Self' will end up in the same spot, eventually. So although "We" are in different aisles, We all will end up at the checkout stand...

We are ALL One person, ALL is One and versa-visa... "They" are 'You' and 'You' are "they"...

namaste

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
John 20:17

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Matthew 27:46

"My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Mark 10:18

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."

John 14:28

"The Father is greater than I."

Acts 7:55-56

"But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

So what's all the hubbub???

Why is it that people associate Jesus as God when quite clearly these verses refute such a claim...

& many more attest to this...

I'm hoping others will share to add to the collection...
Not through laziness, but so others can get involved...

Where & why do people conceive the notion that Jesus is God?


My personal favourite...

Our father, who art in Heaven...
Hallowed be thy name...
Thy kingdom come...
Thy will be done...
On Earth as it is in Heaven...
Give us this day our daily bread...
& forgive us our trespasses...
Etc...
I'm sure you know the rest...

How about that ATS... Jesus was praying for forgiveness as well...
Please do not use this thread to bait or troll Christians...
It's a serious question, keep your replies respectful even if you disagree with one another!!!


Peace!!!

imho, this question would come when someone TRULY read bible at least more than once, not just relying on what being told by pastors or priests every sunday morning.

most people only read bible and pick what they like as long as it fits their beliefs. but nothing is bad about it

everything we do either good or bad are progression towards perfection. some moves fast, some moves slow, in the end, imho, our journey will end at the 'same' finish line.

peace

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

What is ascension if not becoming one with the father, let me ask it the other way around, is it possible for God to become a man?, after all as jesus said for a man it is impossibe but for God anything is possible, Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God, No one comes to the father except by me, he that believeth in me though he were dead yet shall he live and he that believeth in me and live shall never die.
Prince of peace, everlasting father, king of kings, almighty god.
He was and is everything the high priest was supposed to be, the body is the temple of God and his body was uncorrupted by evil so does that mean his soul is one with the father, ie God so by that He is God as well as having been sent to be the messiah, the Anointed one or king of Israel and so take the throne of David.

If you accept that the holy spirit was in him and he in the holy spirit then you must also accept he was one with the father though he is the son and therefore in the unity of the holy trinity he IS God the son.

I am the way and the life and the resurrection.

You can listen to us prattle on all day but instead of searching for proof or other people's understanding ask him to help you, you might be surprised but remember like a counterbalance there will also be the opposite to try to pull you away and it can be a real fight.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Master Samael Aun Weor says that the antichrist is materialistic science. If I look at the condition of the world today I would have to agree.

a reply to: JimNasium

We are ALL One person, ALL is One and versa-visa... "They" are 'You' and 'You' are "they"...

And now we are coming to non-duality not trinity. I find it strange that people do not see how Jesus preached it when he hinted that what you do to others you do to him also.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Here is my 2 cents (1/200th of a cup of latte): There is the unmanifested abstract space from which the creative energy issued forth. This has been described as a Trinity in many spiritual traditions (e.g. Osirus, Isis, Horus; Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva; Father, Son, Holy Spirit; Keter, Chockma, Binah). Under this Trinity is a Pantheon of lesser Gods, Angels, Humanoids, Elementals, Demons, etc.

We intellectual animals aspire to become true Human Beings. Only those with the true Solar Bodies (solar astral, solar mental and solar causal) can be called Human Beings. Christ is an energy. This energy has to be earned on the Path. Jesus was an Initiate who walked to the end of the Path (built the solar bodies, destroyed his earthly egos / defects and awakened his consciousness on all 49 levels of existence). He transformed himself into a higher spiritual being. You can call this stage God or Human Being or self cognizant Angel. Ultimately Jesus who embodies the Christ energy will merge with the all pervading "God" consciousness / energy. Read those quotes in light of this and you will see that he was pointing out to his disciples (who were Initiates to Jesus the Master) that they can achieve his level by doing the Work which is the 3 factors of the Path (birth, death and sacrifice). However these 3 factors are very difficult and usually take many lifetimes to complete.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

How can the Holy Spirit be God?

Some have claimed that the idea of Jesus' divinity was a later construct, but the New Testament clearly refutes this, and establishes that the divinity of Jesus was believed among at the very least some of his disciples. The verses John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" . 14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." This verse is relatively self-explanatory. If Jesus was not considered divine it would be difficult to justify the words and actions of his disciples. And Jesus never claimed to be a prophet either, yet many still consider him this. Another verse is where a disciple refers to him as God. John 20:28-29, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

There are many Old Testament references to the Messiah as well. Here is a verse from Hebrews chapter 1 verse 8: "But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom." And you have to look at the mindset of Jesus as well. He was incarnated as a man, and the Christian doctrine gives the purpose for this. That was the whole point of salvation through death on the cross. So he was a man. He didn't come down as only God it would seem, and this is why he used the powers he possessed on earth very sparingly. But he was only doing what the Father wanted him to do, and basically was in communication with God. He deferred to God all the time, which is the most important thing. Humility was a part of His nature. He wanted people to realize that His power came through God alone, especially while incarnate as a man.

This does not imply He was not God himself. Then another one of the biggest problems, and people forget about this idea a lot, is the historical context. We were dealing with Jews here mostly, and Jesus coming out and saying He was God initially would have caused not only confusion among those who hadn't grasped His entire message, but it would have FORCED the Jews, especially the religious authorities, to arrest Him and try to get Him executed almost immediately. He was crucified for claiming to be the Messiah, so enough said.

The responses I've given are only the tip of the iceberg so to speak. If you really want an in-depth answer, look at the work of actual religious scholars, academics who have devoted their lives to understanding the teachings of Christianity, in this instance. The general consensus, if I remember correctly, is included in what I mentioned above. But these people understand the teachings of Christianity better than the average lay-person, and that is the best place to go for such answers.

Here's the thing about the bible:
Everything written in it has been translated and retranslated from many different languages and back again. So, even if it 'had been' the literal, inspired (direct from God to scribe), which many Christians (not all, please remember) insist it to be - the reality is that, because languages simply do not translate 'literally', the ideas within can only be approximations of the original material...

This is why people need to read it closely (and with an eye toward 'what makes sense' contextually) for themselves, instead of relying on what anyone else claims it says.

Now, as far as "The Lord's Prayer", you need to understand that, even if we were to take it literally, the context in which it is written is not that He is 'praying' that prayer at the time. What has happened is that one of the disciples has just asked Jesus, "Lord how should we pray?"...So, He is giving an example of a 'good' prayer...

As to the question about how Jesus can be both 'himself' and God, (for what it's worth) I'll give you my take - sorry it's going to be long, I hope you'll bear with me:

(Keep in mind, I don't know if I'm a "Christian" or not, as my 'Faith' is based on nearly 50 years of: open-minded research into all Religions, much contemplation over spiritual ideas and ideals, and continual pondering over 'what makes sense' to me as to what the nature of God 'might' be.)

First, consider the idea of a being of pure, formless consciousness - all alone in 'its' existence, who (for whatever reason, boredom maybe?) decides to create 'creation', and does so in exactly the 'way' that science is discovering the universe to be 'evolving'...I mean, He (let's say "He" for lack of a better pronoun) has all eternity to do it, so why not just start off with a (big) bang and watch how things unfold...

----- Fast forward to the beginning of man's self-awareness, the development of 'the spiritual' within him (inexplicable though it is), the rise of civilization, and on up to the time of Abraham ----

At this point 'God' has been passing the time watching various 'peoples' worship the various gods they've come up with, and suddenly (for whatever reason, loneliness?) He decides he'd like to interact with some of them, so He chooses a guy named Abraham (perhaps because Abraham has a particularly 'spiritual' nature?), and includes everyone willing to believe in the 'God' that Abraham has developed a 'relationship' with...Et voila - the beginning of Judaism.

(Fast forward thru all the 'stuff' that may or may not (probably it's a mix) have happened in the Old Testament)

Now, after thousands of years of 'getting to know' these people, God realizes (due to all their violence, bloodshed, and various 'inhumane' behavior toward their fellow man/women) that they just really do not 'get' Him...

His 'intention', whether all along or arising over time', is that people relate to each other as He wishes to relate to them - in a relationship of loving-kindness, like family, with God as Father...

The problem is that by this point, 'His' people are utterly attached to the religious dogma and "Laws" which have evolved over the millennia into a form of 'worship' which is neither about 'relationship' or love - thus, they have no concept of 'who' their 'God' truly is (in other words, they have no concept of the 'Love' that God 'is').

Now, we get to Jesus...and it is very important to understand that the 'Jesus' I am talking about is not the guy that militant, fundamentalist, dogma ridden 'so-called christians' proselytize about...The Jesus I am talking about is the unconditionally loving, nonjudgmental, forgiving person who is found in the heart's translation of the bible - not in the 'literal' translation the 'un'christians tend to quote.

So, we have God, who wants humanity (not just the Jewish people) to know Him as the Love that He is and to 'relate' to Him and each other with love. The problem is that now, things are way different then they were in Abraham's (and Moses', etc.) days...See, the Jewish people are so indoctrinated with 'The Law' as their religion that they have lost touch with 'the spiritual' within them, and since God is a totally spiritual being (formless consciousness), it isn't possible for them to 'relate' to Him in a way that would enable them to be in communication with Him, so how can He tell them they've got Him all wrong?

Unless...He becomes one of them. This is where it gets tricky, and you really have to find the 'insightful' part of your mind, the part that can understand 'more' than mere words can express...

Okay...So, God can't just 'possess' some guy and start telling people who He is and how they should love each other, because no one would buy it...Even if they believed the guy really was God, it wouldn't be enough. What good is it just telling people you love them (and no, giving people everything they want - being 'Santa Claus' God - is not what 'Love' is) In order to comprehend God's Love for them, people would need to see that He could empathize with them, that He could 'relate' to who they 'are'...

...This is why God would have 'incarnated' as a complete - wholly 'Himself', yet fully human - individual 'person', right from birth, with all the trappings, trials, and tribulations inherent to the human condition...so human beings could 'relate' to Him in trust that He was able to 'relate' to them...

Of course, this still begs the question: How can Jesus be 'both' Himself (the son of God) and God the Father?

Have you ever had the kind of dream where you are both experiencing what is happening and 'watching yourself' experiencing it?

It's kind of like that - but not...

(Please keep in mind, this is all conjecture on my part - I am describing the concept in the way that I, personally, came to in pondering over it all and working out a possibility that makes sense to 'me', and part of the 'making sense' is intuitive...I mean - I know what 'I' mean but there aren't words to fully convey it)

Somewhere in the thread someone posted something about how since God is 'all spirit', He can be everywhere...So, it follows that He can 'be' both Himself and 'lesser' than Himself at the same time, and being 'The Creator', He can also 'be'/have more than one perspective at the same time...

Kind of like when you play a video game where you 'see' out of your avatar's eyes, and at the same time (if the game has a split screen element) you see everything happening 'from the outside', watching the avatar moving thru the game...

--------Okay...All done (been writing for 3 hours now) I'm really, really sorry this got so long - if you've made it all the way to the end, I hope you found some worth in it...

It's a hard concept for even seasoned or mature Christians to understand....My understanding is this...Jesus and GOd and the Holy spirit are 3 in One meaning they are all the same....God sent his son Jesus in the flesh so the people here or humans could identify with him.....Had he sent a ball of light or a 3 eyed monster, and we were in human form we may have been afraid and would have certainly not listened or have been as willing to listen as if He sent someone that looked exactly like us....

When Christ was crucified and he said those words "My God My God why have you forsaken me" He, i.e. Jesus was crying out as a man for all of mankind! Could he have removed himself from the cross? Oh most definitely but Jesus being God saw the pain and suffering that MUST take place in order for everyone of us to have the opportunity to spend eternity with God. And since Jesus was in fact in the flesh He had to go through physically death!

But when he descended into hell he overcame death such as when we die (if you are a Christ follower) to say "death" does not get the final say so....When Jesus ascends to heaven to be with his Father God, he does so as representation to show us, all man kind that this is what waits for us....Yes our physical body will die but out spirit will live on forever.

The Holy Spirit is actually known as "truth" Each one of us receives the Holy Spirit when we become Saved from eternal death and promised life everlasting with God. The Holy Spirit is our direct means of perfect communication to God the Father or Jesus .......The Holy spirit intercedes for us when we reach out in prayer to pray the perfect prayer , that is not the words we speak, but our hearts..for us according to God's will....

I know it is really confusing....

Very Good topic Charlie, S&F and one that needs to be discussed.....

pax

a reply to: lostgirl

Here's the thing about the bible:
Everything written in it has been translated and retranslated from many different languages and back again. So, even if it 'had been' the literal, inspired (direct from God to scribe), which many Christians (not all, please remember) insist it to be - the reality is that, because languages simply do not translate 'literally', the ideas within can only be approximations of the original material...

This is why people need to read it closely (and with an eye toward 'what makes sense' contextually) for themselves, instead of relying on what anyone else claims it says.

while part of what you are saying is true that the bible has been translated many many times, it is not true that the translation changed the meaning of the text....Man should never interpret scripture only scripture i.e. the scripture before and after the scripture one is trying to understand should only interpret scripture....This avoids scripture being misunderstood because it was taken out of context.....

pax