Do you believe in The Merciful God/The Most High Jesus prayed to on The Cross or another god (wrathf

a reply to: TzarChasm

aztecs. and the list doesnt stop there.

What list? LOL

You named a culture of hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of people... I said name a person who died for someone that didn't exist

i can think of a lot of people who write for a living and still dont know squat.

Good for you...

Most people who write for a living in a few languages are quite educated... they would have to be

So I don't know what kind of morons you might know... but the people who wrote about Jesus were very educated...

Now the ones who may have been dictating to these scribes may not have been but that is beside the point

a reply to: Akragon

What list? LOL

You named a culture of hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of people... I said name a person who died for someone that didn't exist

so instead of giving you an isolated incident, i gave you a culture that made human sacrifices a ritual part of their lifestyle. it feels like you are missing the point here.

Good for you...

Most people who write for a living in a few languages are quite educated... they would have to be

So I don't know what kind of morons you might know... but the people who wrote about Jesus were very educated...

Now the ones who may have been dictating to these scribes may not have been but that is beside the point

still a hell of a lot of assumptions. why is the story of athena and arachne a folktale and not the story of adam and eve? exact same principle.

a reply to: TzarChasm

so instead of giving you an isolated incident, i gave you a culture that made human sacrifices a ritual part of their lifestyle. it feels like you are missing the point here.

Right but you're talking about something that has been ingrained into the culture... they believed if sacrifices weren't made they're crops wouldn't grow and the entire society would wither and die... Sacrifices, while being rather barbaric were made for the good of the community to appease the "gods"

To them there was no choice but to appease the gods or their entire way of life would end... those that followed Jesus had a choice, they could have very easily saved themselves... but chose not to

still a hell of a lot of assumptions. why is the story of athena and arachne a folktale and not the story of adam and eve? exact same principle.

Adam and eve are nothing more then mythical characters... You seem to think you're talking to a Christian

one does not need to accept a label to believe in Jesus

a reply to: Akragon

Right but you're talking about something that has been ingrained into the culture... they believed if sacrifices weren't made they're crops wouldn't grow and the entire society would wither and die... Sacrifices, while being rather barbaric were made for the good of the community to appease the "gods"

not so different from what we see today. have to ask yourself - if it was legal, and they became convinced it was necessary, would they do it? would they truss up random strangers for minor offences or for convenience and spill their blood on an altar until there was no more left?

Adam and eve are nothing more then mythical characters... You seem to think you're talking to a Christian

one does not need to accept a label to believe in Jesus

i was under the impression that i was, not that its at all relevant.

i did not mention labels.

a reply to: TzarChasm

The point being... again...

People don't sacrifice their own lives for someone who never existed in the first place...

People have sacrificed their lives for so called gods for the good of their community... but given the choice of death or life... no one would ever die for a man that never existed

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: TzarChasm

The point being... again...

People don't sacrifice their own lives for someone who never existed in the first place...

People have sacrificed their lives for so called gods for the good of their community... but given the choice of death or life... no one would ever die for a man that never existed

so the idea is to come up with a clever way of proving this person exists without ever providing any actual evidence for said person's existence. that way at least THEY believe in this person and POOF! another pawn on the chessboard.

point being, millions have died for someone who doesnt exist. we just didnt figure it out until centuries after the fact. and that fact that they didnt know it then doesnt change the fact that they did it.

a reply to: TzarChasm

so the idea is to come up with a clever way of proving this person exists without ever providing any actual evidence for said person's existence. that way at least THEY believe in this person and POOF! another pawn on the chessboard.

What exactly would be the point?

DO you believe that others actually care what some random person thinks of their beliefs so much so that they would go through this elaborate hoax to prove someone existed when they didn't?

and be willing to die for their hoax?

that's quite amusing...

point being, millions have died for someone who doesnt exist. we just didnt figure it out until centuries after the fact. and that fact that they didnt know it then doesnt change the fact that they did it.

Fortunately you haven't made a single effort to prove that point... so I reiterate, no one has ever died for a man that never existed in the first place... ever...

No one even questioned whether or not Jesus existed until recently... the miracles have been questioned... His status as god in the flesh has been questioned... but never his existence

And besides that I've already given you proof he existed... You don't have to like it, but that doesn't change it

a reply to: Akragon

What exactly would be the point?

DO you believe that others actually care what some random person thinks of their beliefs so much so that they would go through this elaborate hoax to prove someone existed when they didn't?

and be willing to die for their hoax?

that's quite amusing...

hmmm..interestng question. i feel that some might see certain philosophes as being essential to the ssrvival of mankind. so essential that they ar willing to kill for it, by teachng others to die for it. thats some intense psychological crap there man. i bet the militry has a handbook out there somewhere that teaches you exactly how to start a religion. no better way to first unite, then weaponize. psychological warfare. kinda hard to believe it could last 2,000 years though. maybe theres a giant war they have been preparing us for. not a war between god and devil i mean a human war. yes, very interesting question.

Fortunately you haven't made a single effort to prove that point... so I reiterate, no one has ever died for a man that never existed in the first place... ever...

No one even questioned whether or not Jesus existed until recently... the miracles have been questioned... His status as god in the flesh has been questioned... but never his existence

And besides that I've already given you proof he existed... You don't have to like it, but that doesn't change it

i havent? just google it. "human sacrifices made to gods in history" wikipedia will probably be one of the first five, cant miss it. allah ring a bell? or the aztec one huitsil something or other.

maybe he existed? dunno dont care. the point here is that people do give their lives for someone who nver existed, maybe jesus was just a simple carpnter. do you understand what it means to weaponze someone? what it takes to weaponize an entire nation? i freely admit this is just speculation but its an intriguing notion, its possible. has anyone done a study on this? gotta go look that up..

originally posted by: Akragon

No one even questioned whether or not Jesus existed until recently... the miracles have been questioned... His status as god in the flesh has been questioned... but never his existence

And besides that I've already given you proof he existed... You don't have to like it, but that doesn't change it

I must have missed the "proof".

Name one person who lived when Jesus allegedly lived who wrote that s/he witnessed Jesus living. That would be evidence. Independent, corroborating documentation would be stronger evidence.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
Jesus taught about the sheep and the goats and that souls who to not do right will face consequence for it. He said the criteria that have to uphold to be considered a sheep and not a goat.

Not one word written about Jesus was written by anyone who lived when Jesus allegedly lived and witnessed him saying anything. The parts of the Bible attributed to Jesus were written multiple generations after he allegedly lived.

originally posted by: arpgme

originally posted by: Tangerine
You're saying that God didn't create everything, including Adam and Eve and the Serpent.

No, I'm not. I'm saying God created everything except for death. Death happened when Adam and Eve got tricked by the serpent.

originally posted by: Tangerine
You're saying that God is not all-knowing and all-powerful.

No I'm not. God being all-knowing and all-powerful does not contradict the serpent tricking Adam and Eve. He tricked Adam and Eve (humanity) not God.

originally posted by: Tangerine
An all-knowing God would have known exactly what the Serpent, Adam and Eve would do before he created them. An all-powerful God would have created them to do exactly what he wanted them to do.

Yes, an all-knowing God would have known exactly what would of happened. Just like if you go into the future, watch something, then go back 5 minutes you'll know what will happen. Just because God knows what will happen that doesn't mean he will interfere with humanity's (Adam and Eve's ) choice to follow death or Life. It's humanity choice to walk the narrow path of Life or the wide path of death.

originally posted by: Tangerine
An all-powerful God would have created them to do exactly what he wanted them to do.

He wanted them to choose between Life and death, and they did.

You failed basic logic. A supernatural deity who knows in advance what someone will do (ie. is all knowing) and who creates that person knowing what they will do (ie. is all powerful) created them to do his bidding. Free will in an absurdity is such a scheme. A supernatural deity who created everything created death, Adam, Eve, the serpent and everything else. You simply don't want to face the absurdity of your own religious belief system.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
Jesus taught about the sheep and the goats and that souls who to not do right will face consequence for it. He said the criteria that have to uphold to be considered a sheep and not a goat.

Actually, there's no historical evidence (ie. contemporaneous documentation) proving that Jesus ever lived. Even if he did, the books of the Bible that "quote" him were written by people who didn't live when Jesus allegedly lived and never heard him say a word. Bottom line, Jesus didn't teach anything that we're aware of.

Do not matter if it is Horus, Buddha, Jesus, Nanek or Rumi saying it. Still the same message by them all on Meta/higher level. Follow the golden rule or face the consequence. Prove what you are in action. Faith without works is dead. (James 2:14-26)

It most certainly does matter if you claim that Jesus actually lived and you have no contemporaneous documentation (ie. historical evidence) to back up your claim. As for your claim that Horus, Buddha, Nanek, and Rumi taught the Golden Rule, where in the Golden rule do you find threats of eternal punishment in Hell? Your claim that they all taught the same thing on a "meta" level is absurd. Your meta level is your wishful thinking. What you've done is whitewash the "Jesus message" to give it a New Age twist.

originally posted by: AlephBet

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: AlephBet

You're proselytizing, not having a conversation.

Are you lost? You are in the religion thread and I am talking about the topic of religion and science as it relates to orthogonal linear transformation in a matrix. My reply was interesting. Did you read it? In physics, symmetry is a law followed by the strong nuclear force. This means that no matter how much translational symmetry occurs, the environment you move it never changes. It remains the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Only you can change by the translational relationship to truth. Denying ignorance requires this.

Proselytizing is when I tell you that you need Jesus. I didn't say that even once.

It's ok, Tangerine also accused me of proselytizing.

If you say "Jesus" you are a proselyte.
If you say "God" you are a proselyte.
If you say "Bible" you are a proselyte.

See, it goes on and on.

I can mention a certain person not on the threads currently who would be considered a proselyte, but since he is not here right now, he shall remain nameless.

Oranges aren't the only fruit, neither are tangerines.

a reply to: AlephBet

I kind of like Hosea and Gomer.

They were the ultimate types of Christ and His Bride. Even though she was sold into slavery because of her prostitution, Hosea still loved her enough to buy her back.

That's love.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: AlephBet

I kind of like Hosea and Gomer.

They were the ultimate types of Christ and His Bride. Even though she was sold into slavery because of her prostitution, Hosea still loved her enough to buy her back.

That's love.

Owning someone and selling them into slavery is love? No wonder many people find the Abrahamic belief system to be repulsive. I don't expect a reasoned response from you. I've read your posts in other forums.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Akragon

No one even questioned whether or not Jesus existed until recently... the miracles have been questioned... His status as god in the flesh has been questioned... but never his existence

And besides that I've already given you proof he existed... You don't have to like it, but that doesn't change it

I must have missed the "proof".

Name one person who lived when Jesus allegedly lived who wrote that s/he witnessed Jesus living. That would be evidence. Independent, corroborating documentation would be stronger evidence.

Hmm, except for Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. That's barely one generation away. And since you want evidence but you won't take it from the earliest sources, including Josephus, who was very much alive during the time of Jesus.

I think you should look at dates when making assertions.

Josephus lived at that time. He died in 94 AD, only sixty years after Jesus, so he was alive at that time. But if you read Tacitus, later, he does mention that Pontius Pilate did indeed crucify Jesus. But even more amazing is that the census document of Quirinius has been authenticated.

One of the absurdities is that a scholar claims that He might have been executed by Herod Antipas as the Gospel of Peter suggests, but according to the Bible it was indeed Herod Antipas who did try Jesus but because of Jewish law at that time, they could not execute someone who was not found guilty. So they turned Him over to Pilate.

The execution by Pilate was first instigated by Herod Antipas. The Bible makes that claim, then backed up by Josephus, who was born just a few years after Jesus died. I think Josephus is reliable and since Josephus' father lived at that same time, in Jerusalem, then that's an eyewitness to the events. But the father of Josephus was a Matthias, who was a Sadducee. Not only that, Josephus mentions Paul, but as Saulus, which is exactly what the Bible says.

Costobarus also, and Saulus, did themselves get together a multitude of wicked wretches, and this because they were of the royal family; and so they obtained favor among them, because of their kindred to Agrippa; but still they used violence with the people, and were very ready to plunder those that were weaker than themselves. And from that time it principally came to pass that our city was greatly disordered, and that all things grew worse and worse among us

Saul said he had letters to kill and persecute Christians. Now either Josephus read that in the Bible, or he knew it happened. You cannot ask for witnesses of the time and then dismiss a witness from that time. Josephus lays out the exact same narrative as in the book of Acts, including Ananias and Theophilus. All of these people lived in that time, not even a generation away.

But look at all of this very closely, the fact that Josephus is writing about events that are in the Book of Acts, even mentioning the exact same people, because he lived at the time, makes me wonder, do you suppose Josephus was telling us things from the 4th century or could it have just been possible that the Bible was accurately portraying all the people that Josephus mentioned?

Here you go, the passage about Theophilus

The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach

Josephus even mentions Drusilla as the Bible does

Acts 24:24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

2. But for the marriage of Drusilla with Azizus, it was in no long time afterward dissolved upon the following occasion: While Felix was procurator of Judea, he saw this Drusilla, and fell in love with her; for she did indeed exceed all other women in beauty;

Did Josephus know that from a 4th century document?

Bernice and Festus

Acts 25:13 And after certain days king Agrippa and Bernice came unto Caesarea to salute Festus.

Accordingly she acted ill, and because she was desirous to avoid her sister Bernice's envy, for she was very ill treated by her on account of her beauty,

I have to conclude that Jesus was real, based on several evidences from a person who lived at that time, and he mentions James, the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:

Stephen was among those who were stoned.

Tacitus mentions Christianity began in Judea and then again in Rome, that's what the Bible says also. I don't think Tacitus read the Bible to say that one.

So there you go, a person living in the same century in Jerusalem, who mentions by name people in the Book of Acts and James, who he calls the brother of Jesus Christ. How much earlier do you need other than the disciples themselves?

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: AlephBet

I kind of like Hosea and Gomer.

They were the ultimate types of Christ and His Bride. Even though she was sold into slavery because of her prostitution, Hosea still loved her enough to buy her back.

That's love.

Owning someone and selling them into slavery is love? No wonder many people find the Abrahamic belief system to be repulsive. I don't expect a reasoned response from you. I've read your posts in other forums.

Apparently you don't know the story of Hosea and Gomer.

HE did NOT sell her, she was caught by slave traders while in the act of prostitution. It was from the slave traders that Hosea bought her back from.

Really? You didn't know the story and then make a wild assertion such as that? Geesh, please don't be ignorant about the Bible before trying to argue it. That's what you insist for people who post in science forums. Please, read the Bible before discussing it because it just made you look ignorant.

You had no idea what it said so you made a wrong statement. Now I can't take your science postings seriously. Really? You should get your facts straight before arguing a point of a story you had no idea what it said.

Now, as you like to tell me to read a science book, I will tell you to read the Bible so you know what you are talking about when arguing with people who know the Bible.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: AlephBet

I kind of like Hosea and Gomer.

They were the ultimate types of Christ and His Bride. Even though she was sold into slavery because of her prostitution, Hosea still loved her enough to buy her back.

That's love.

Owning someone and selling them into slavery is love? No wonder many people find the Abrahamic belief system to be repulsive. I don't expect a reasoned response from you. I've read your posts in other forums.

Apparently you don't know the story of Hosea and Gomer.

HE did NOT sell her, she was caught by slave traders while in the act of prostitution. It was from the slave traders that Hosea bought her back from.

Really? You didn't know the story and then make a wild assertion such as that? Geesh, please don't be ignorant about the Bible before trying to argue it. That's what you insist for people who post in science forums. Please, read the Bible before discussing it because it just made you look ignorant.

You had no idea what it said so you made a wrong statement. Now I can't take your science postings seriously. Really? You should get your facts straight before arguing a point of a story you had no idea what it said.

Now, as you like to tell me to read a science book, I will tell you to read the Bible so you know what you are talking about when arguing with people who know the Bible.

I've read it. I didn't memorize it. I don't sleep with a copy under my pillow and fondle and reread it every day and puke scripture from it in an attempt to get others to join my cult and prop up my belief system. I've also read Harry Potter but I wasn't foolish enough to believe that the Weasely family was real and base my life on their fictional actions. Your Bible characters are as fictional as the Weasely family and should be taken as seriously. When you want to claim that the characters in the Bible actually existed, you had better come up with contemporaneous documentation (ie. historical evidence) to prove it. Gomer. LMAO

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: AlephBet

I kind of like Hosea and Gomer.

They were the ultimate types of Christ and His Bride. Even though she was sold into slavery because of her prostitution, Hosea still loved her enough to buy her back.

That's love.

Owning someone and selling them into slavery is love? No wonder many people find the Abrahamic belief system to be repulsive. I don't expect a reasoned response from you. I've read your posts in other forums.

Apparently you don't know the story of Hosea and Gomer.

HE did NOT sell her, she was caught by slave traders while in the act of prostitution. It was from the slave traders that Hosea bought her back from.

Really? You didn't know the story and then make a wild assertion such as that? Geesh, please don't be ignorant about the Bible before trying to argue it. That's what you insist for people who post in science forums. Please, read the Bible before discussing it because it just made you look ignorant.

You had no idea what it said so you made a wrong statement. Now I can't take your science postings seriously. Really? You should get your facts straight before arguing a point of a story you had no idea what it said.

Now, as you like to tell me to read a science book, I will tell you to read the Bible so you know what you are talking about when arguing with people who know the Bible.

I've read it. I didn't memorize it. I don't sleep with a copy under my pillow and fondle and reread it every day and puke scripture from it in an attempt to get others to join my cult and prop up my belief system. I've also read Harry Potter but I wasn't foolish enough to believe that the Weasely family was real and base my life on their fictional actions. Your Bible characters are as fictional as the Weasely family and should be taken as seriously. When you want to claim that the characters in the Bible actually existed, you had better come up with contemporaneous documentation (ie. historical evidence) to prove it. Gomer. LMAO

Again, you didn't read it. Had you read it, I wouldn't have had to spoon feed it to you.

Now, as you don't believe any archeological evidence will prove the story of Hosea and Gomer, there is not going to be any either of the day to day life of your parents or grandparents.

Can you show me contemporaneous documents that support your ancestors from a thousand years ago? Did they not exist because you can't show me?

Come on, fair is fair, if you demand evidence, then it's only fair to assume you have evidence for yours. That's the beauty of this, Hosea was just an average guy. He didn't have to do something spectacular in pop culture history to get noticed. But since you want evidence, I am assuming that you can also provide documentary evidence of every one of your ancestors more than 500 years ago.

Make sure your argument before demanding evidence. This whole "burden of proof" should be carried by you as well. Before you dismiss mine, can you also show me that Socrates was a real person?

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: AlephBet

I kind of like Hosea and Gomer.

They were the ultimate types of Christ and His Bride. Even though she was sold into slavery because of her prostitution, Hosea still loved her enough to buy her back.

That's love.

Owning someone and selling them into slavery is love? No wonder many people find the Abrahamic belief system to be repulsive. I don't expect a reasoned response from you. I've read your posts in other forums.

Apparently you don't know the story of Hosea and Gomer.

HE did NOT sell her, she was caught by slave traders while in the act of prostitution. It was from the slave traders that Hosea bought her back from.

Really? You didn't know the story and then make a wild assertion such as that? Geesh, please don't be ignorant about the Bible before trying to argue it. That's what you insist for people who post in science forums. Please, read the Bible before discussing it because it just made you look ignorant.

You had no idea what it said so you made a wrong statement. Now I can't take your science postings seriously. Really? You should get your facts straight before arguing a point of a story you had no idea what it said.

Now, as you like to tell me to read a science book, I will tell you to read the Bible so you know what you are talking about when arguing with people who know the Bible.

I've read it. I didn't memorize it. I don't sleep with a copy under my pillow and fondle and reread it every day and puke scripture from it in an attempt to get others to join my cult and prop up my belief system. I've also read Harry Potter but I wasn't foolish enough to believe that the Weasely family was real and base my life on their fictional actions. Your Bible characters are as fictional as the Weasely family and should be taken as seriously. When you want to claim that the characters in the Bible actually existed, you had better come up with contemporaneous documentation (ie. historical evidence) to prove it. Gomer. LMAO

Again, you didn't read it. Had you read it, I wouldn't have had to spoon feed it to you.

Now, as you don't believe any archeological evidence will prove the story of Hosea and Gomer, there is not going to be any either of the day to day life of your parents or grandparents.

Can you show me contemporaneous documents that support your ancestors from a thousand years ago? Did they not exist because you can't show me?

Come on, fair is fair, if you demand evidence, then it's only fair to assume you have evidence for yours. That's the beauty of this, Hosea was just an average guy. He didn't have to do something spectacular in pop culture history to get noticed. But since you want evidence, I am assuming that you can also provide documentary evidence of every one of your ancestors more than 500 years ago.

Make sure your argument before demanding evidence. This whole "burden of proof" should be carried by you as well. Before you dismiss mine, can you also show me that Socrates was a real person?

theres a difference between taking inspiration from a fictional character and going every sunday to ritually pledge your soul in service of the only person who apparently matters in the entire universe. we do not need proof of our ancestors because we arent worshipping them and demanding that society be remodeled around their ideals. i wouldnt demand proof of your jesus or god if you regarded them the same way my art professor regarded van gogh. an inspirational model, but by no means a singular phenomena.