Battle For Strategic Mariupol Begins, NATO Vows To Do "Whatever It Takes"

a reply to: jajaja

What the US/NATO et al are doing is FUNDING, weapons and systems and equpment for WAR, not HUMANATARIAN AID.

Any proof of this happening, because the US has already said they will not send arms and as of yet no NATO country has sent arms, but I guess talk of this happening is proof in your eyes.

It reaches the people all right, in the form of bullets, shelling et al. Hardly what I call HUMANITARIAN AID.

And Russia knows exactly how that works...



But you call theirs humanitarian aid, oh the irony.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: jajaja

What the US/NATO et al are doing is FUNDING, weapons and systems and equpment for WAR, not HUMANATARIAN AID.

Any proof of this happening, because the US has already said they will not send arms and as of yet no NATO country has sent arms, but I guess talk of this happening is proof in your eyes.

It reaches the people all right, in the form of bullets, shelling et al. Hardly what I call HUMANITARIAN AID.

And Russia knows exactly how that works...

But you call theirs humanitarian aid, oh the irony.

www.nato.int...

NATO’s assistance to Ukraine to boost cooperation will amount to around 15 million euros.

None of that 15€ million is going to reach the PEOPLE.

Cyber defence, well that right there is a total waste of money via an e-bogey man.

The people in this don't need cyber defence, they need FOOD, WATER, ENERGY, HOSPITAL TREATMENT.

Ukraine isn't even a NATO member for gawds sakes.

Not a single penny in HUMANITARIAN AID, it is all going to the MILITARY in Ukraine.



At least Russia sent food, water, energy.

So far all you send is hate.

a reply to: victor7
As for allies en.wikipedia.org...

Checked this results carefully and found some surprises

Israel and Iran absent lol.
Israel i would expect for (aka against Russia) and Iran at least abstain.

Anyway for Russia there is not even one worthwhile ally

a reply to: jajaja

None of that 15€ million is going to reach the PEOPLE.

So then you have no evidence of any arms being sent to Ukraine by the US or NATO, but you know the money won't reach the people...gotcha.

Cyber defence, well that right there is a total waste of money via an e-bogey man.

I like how you seem to gloss over this part for your cherry picking...

The Secretary General said that Allies have established “a comprehensive and tailored package of measures” to help Ukraine. The focus of NATO support will be on four areas; rehabilitation for injured troops, cyber defence, logistics, and command and control and communications. NATO’s assistance to Ukraine to boost cooperation will amount to around 15 million euros.

So not just cyber security, but you just forgot the rest in your post...honest mistake I'm sure, or was it?

At least Russia sent food, water, energy.

And how much of that was seen by the people and how much was seen by the separatists. You can give one bottle of water to someone in that region and it could be considered humanitarian aid, so your logic is a bit flawed.

As I have said before Russia sent aid...Humilitarian Aid.

So far all you send is hate.

So says the one backing the man who has been caught lying so much about Ukraine he has to lie just to cover his lies.

Just so you know I have sent nothing so your wrong again.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: jajaja

None of that 15€ million is going to reach the PEOPLE.

So then you have no evidence of any arms being sent to Ukraine by the US or NATO, but you know the money won't reach the people...gotcha.

Cyber defence, well that right there is a total waste of money via an e-bogey man.

I like how you seem to gloss over this part for your cherry picking...

The Secretary General said that Allies have established “a comprehensive and tailored package of measures” to help Ukraine. The focus of NATO support will be on four areas; rehabilitation for injured troops, cyber defence, logistics, and command and control and communications. NATO’s assistance to Ukraine to boost cooperation will amount to around 15 million euros.

So not just cyber security, but you just forgot the rest in your post...honest mistake I'm sure, or was it?

At least Russia sent food, water, energy.

And how much of that was seen by the people and how much was seen by the separatists. You can give one bottle of water to someone in that region and it could be considered humanitarian aid, so your logic is a bit flawed.

As I have said before Russia sent aid...Humilitarian Aid.

So far all you send is hate.

So says the one backing the man who has been caught lying so much about Ukraine he has to lie just to cover his lies.

Just so you know I have sent nothing so your wrong again.

Command and control, well that is a broad area, but i am sure it isn't about helping the residents, more likely about helping organise fighting.

Logistics, I am sure it is not about moving them to hospitals, more likely moving artillary about and military supplies.

Helping soliders, well, sure, help the people killing the local residents, they don't need help, right?

Cyber defence, against what? What is left to attack? Their mobile phones? Their energy network? It is already being destroyed, by Kiev themselves.

Not one single bit of aid to the people being attacked.

They don't need bullet proof vests et al. They need FOOD, ENERGY, HEALTHCARE, AND PEACE.

None of this people can eat, or help themselves with.

What Russia sent, at least helps the people.

A bag of cookies and bullet proof vests, mobile radios, et al does not help the people.

Ukraine is not even in NATO, they are not even in the EU, they are not a State in the US either.

What comes next? I bet, Belerause. In 10 years expect an ehm Coloured Revolution in Beleraus and we will be having the same discussion again then too.

So, lets attack Russia, nothing bad will come of that.

Ironically, the loudest supporters of attacking Russia, seem to be the one's firmly planted in their armchairs.

The people affected by this are Ukrainians and Europeans, the yanks don't give a rats, that is how they came out of the WW1 and WW2 a superpower, by making the rest of the world (Europe) take the hit. They are doing it again. America is NOT our allies. Wake up.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Here you go :

Poroshenko adviser names countries that promised Kiev weapons

Agreements were reached at the NATO summit on Western military advisers and the delivery of modern weapons from the United States, France, Italy, Poland and Norway, Yuri Lutsenko said

en.itar-tass.com...

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

I remember this Hacker episode www.abovetopsecret.com...
At that time I read all documents they hacked, and if remember well there was mention about weapons and many more from CIA. So, for me it is long time not the question.
sporaw.livejournal.com... I also followed discussion concerning is it fake or not. I was like 80% convinced that it was genuine emails. Now, after all what happened I'm 95% convinced.

I can't find full archive, now though.

a reply to: jajaja

Logistics, I am sure it is not about moving them to hospitals, more likely moving artillary about and military supplies.

Really because the word has a broad meaning.

1. (Military) the science of the movement, supplying, and maintenance of military forces in the field
2. (Economics) the management of materials flow through an organization, from raw materials through to finished goods
3. the detailed planning and organization of any large complex operation

www.thefreedictionary.com...

Notice that 2 and 3 are not necessarily militarily involved, but of course that doesn't matter to you because everything has to involve the military, correct?

Better yet when you see a commercial big rig that has logistics in their name are they only moving something that has to do with the military, or are they moving consumer goods from one place to another?

Do you see where your argument falls short?

Not one single bit of aid to the people being attacked.

And you have evidence that backs that claim up?

Ukraine is not even in NATO, they are not even in the EU, they are not a State in the US either.

And they aren't part of Russia either, but did that stop them...Not at all.

What comes next? I bet, Belerause.

That all depends on how long Putin wants to keep trying to get the old gang back together and how long he stays in power now doesn't it?

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: jajaja

Logistics, I am sure it is not about moving them to hospitals, more likely moving artillary about and military supplies.

Really because the word has a broad meaning.

1. (Military) the science of the movement, supplying, and maintenance of military forces in the field
2. (Economics) the management of materials flow through an organization, from raw materials through to finished goods
3. the detailed planning and organization of any large complex operation

www.thefreedictionary.com...

Notice that 2 and 3 are not necessarily militarily involved, but of course that doesn't matter to you because everything has to involve the military, correct?

Better yet when you see a commercial big rig that has logistics in their name are they only moving something that has to do with the military, or are they moving consumer goods from one place to another?

Do you see where your argument falls short?

Not one single bit of aid to the people being attacked.

And you have evidence that backs that claim up?

Ukraine is not even in NATO, they are not even in the EU, they are not a State in the US either.

And they aren't part of Russia either, but did that stop them...Not at all.

What comes next? I bet, Belerause.

That all depends on how long Putin wants to keep trying to get the old gang back together and how long he stays in power now doesn't it?

It also depends on how NATO wants to get a bigger gang, doesn't it.

Beleraus is very friendly with Russia, you can bet same will happen there, it doesn't just happen, it is "engineered" to happen.

So, NATO gets all these countries, then what? That is the part that scares me. What comes next?

NATO, like Israel et al, is dangerious.

The Warsaw pact is gone, NATO's purpose is long over.

I think maybe Russia should reform a pact, but Russia is smarter than this, they know the pivot is going East, economically and more.

Everybody knows this, big businesses know this, even China is outsourcing to Africa.

You cannot stop this pivot eastwards now.

Then again, all this is engineered, probably to make us sick of wars, tired of fighting, with the aim to get less "division" in the world, and more compliance globaly.

This is a plan thought out 100 years ahead long ago.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Poroshenko adviser names countries that promised Kiev weapons

Now the question is have they already done this...simple answer is No.

So in your world a promise to do something in the future is the same thing as doing it now...Interesting.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Poroshenko adviser names countries that promised Kiev weapons

Now the question is have they already done this...simple answer is No.

So in your world a promise to do something in the future is the same thing as doing it now...Interesting.

They have send in money to fight, and thought Ukraine would win with NATO advisers and the weapons they already had. But even with the massive advantage in heavy weapons it turned into a big disaster, and now they even send in more money and weapons to keep on fighting...

So it`s easy to see, the West wants to keep the war going, they have the ability to stop it, but are making sure it goes on, absolutely no denial who`s the actual aggressor in this case.

a reply to: jajaja

Beleraus is very friendly with Russia, you can bet same will happen there, it doesn't just happen, it is "engineered" to happen.

So that's why Belaruse is worried about the same thing happening to them as what is happening in Ukraine, that's shows real friendly relations.

Russia’s partners are understandably spooked. Early in the Ukraine crisis, when pro-Western protesters were camping out in Kiev, Aleksandr Lukashenko, Belarus’ president, seemed happy to see Russia encourage the Ukrainian regime to crack down. Like Putin, he had no desire to see Ukraine’s fellow Slavs in Russia or Belarus copying the slogans and tactics of the Ukrainian protestors. (Lukashenko is still scarred by the demonstrations that followed the controversial 2010 elections, in which he won a fourth term in office.) But Russia’s military intervention in Crimea was a very different matter. Lukashenko pointedly refused to send observers to Crimea’s March 15 referendum. He has also defied Moscow by saying that he will work with the new pro-Western government in Kiev (which Putin has described as “illegitimate”).

www.foreignaffairs.com...

So, NATO gets all these countries, then what? That is the part that scares me. What comes next?

That would depend on Putin's next move and what country he decides he wants to reunite with to bring the old soviet era back.

The Warsaw pact is gone, NATO's purpose is long over.

Not as long as Putin thinks he can do what he did with Ukraine and get away with it.

Everybody knows this, big businesses know this, even China is outsourcing to Africa.

And what exactly do either of those countries have to do with Ukraine and Russia, as I don't see the Chinese in Ukraine nor do I see any African nation there either?

This is a plan thought out 100 years ahead long ago.

So 100 years ago before most involved in this conflict were born this plan was decided on and just now coming to fruition...sure it was.

I don't know if Mariupol will stay Ukranian, but Poland waiting for their Ukr serfs
welcome to Europe

youtu.be...

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

They have send in money to fight, and thought Ukraine would win with NATO advisers and the weapons they already had. But even with the massive advantage in heavy weapons it turned into a big disaster, and now they even send in more money and weapons to keep on fighting...

First off the weapons that Ukraine uses are Russian made not from NATO, and NATO has not sent weapons to Ukraine but you seem to not understand that.

And we see what happens when Russia sent heavy weapons to the separatists, they don't understand how to use them properly.

BUK 21 system is a pretty good example.

So it`s easy to see, the West wants to keep the war going, they have the ability to stop it, but are making sure it goes on, absolutely no denial who`s the actual aggressor in this case.

Funny but it's not the west sending troops and heavy weapons to the separatists that seem to not care about cease fires or the civilian population they terrorize, but of course it's all the west's fault even though Russia is the reason all of this started.

And in case you think different look into why Yanukovych didn't sign on with the EU...Here's a hint, he strong armed Yanukovych into not signing for fear he would lose his Russian benefactors. But of course you have already researched that right?

So yes we see who the aggressor in this conflict is...Vladimir Putin and his way of thinking.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

They have send in money to fight, and thought Ukraine would win with NATO advisers and the weapons they already had. But even with the massive advantage in heavy weapons it turned into a big disaster, and now they even send in more money and weapons to keep on fighting...

First off the weapons that Ukraine uses are Russian made not from NATO, and NATO has not sent weapons to Ukraine but you seem to not understand that.

And we see what happens when Russia sent heavy weapons to the separatists, they don't understand how to use them properly.

BUK 21 system is a pretty good example.

So it`s easy to see, the West wants to keep the war going, they have the ability to stop it, but are making sure it goes on, absolutely no denial who`s the actual aggressor in this case.

Funny but it's not the west sending troops and heavy weapons to the separatists that seem to not care about cease fires or the civilian population they terrorize, but of course it's all the west's fault even though Russia is the reason all of this started.

And in case you think different look into why Yanukovych didn't sign on with the EU...Here's a hint, he strong armed Yanukovych into not signing for fear he would lose his Russian benefactors. But of course you have already researched that right?

So yes we see who the aggressor in this conflict is...Vladimir Putin and his way of thinking.

Russian weapons in Ukraine, are made in Ukraine. Not any more though They lost that contract

Ukraine is not our friend, they even steal the Gas we Europeans paid for.

God knows why we want to help country that steal from us, oh yeah, somebody wants to steal from them back

Either way, this does not end well for Ukraine nor Europeans.

OOPS, Kiev lied again...

Not surprising actually seeing their history :

NATO Allies Deny Ukraine Official's Claims Of Military Support

The constant to-and-fro of lies, propaganda, and misinformation continues among all sides in Ukraine; but this 'denial' occurred very rapidly. As Reuters reports, a senior aide to Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko said on Sunday that Kiev had reached agreement during the NATO summit in Wales on the provision of weapons and military advisers from five member states of the alliance. However, four of those five swiftly denied making any such pledge.

www.zerohedge.com...

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: Xcathdra

There was nothing, no offer, agreement, treaty, etc that prevented NATO from expanding East.

There was verbal agreement but everyone knows you cannot trust any US Secretary of State, especially James Baker. Or any of his successor's either apparently but as you say there is nothing in "writing."

Why do people seem to now get upset when NATO is pushing up against Russia's doorstep and Russia pushes back. I submit if a person's and government's word isn't good enough then neither is a scrap of paper with their names scrawled on it. Everyone knows that treaties only last as long as they're expedient to the signatories anyway.

For one Russia was participating in all NATO exercises up and till their stunt in Georgia and now Ukraine. They had no reason to fear NATO. NATO had no plans to go there for a fight because not one country wanted too due to the shear suicide of it all. NATO is a defensive alliance, PERIOD!! Nations can opt out of the plans when they want and still be a member, IE: FRANCE.

Ukraine wanted to be prosperous with the EU instead of living in slums of the cold war under Russia. That is the fact and Russia is the one that does nothing but LIE!!

As far as the U.S. missile defense system in Europe, well Putin just cries because he can. That system will never prevent Russia from nuking anyone and he knows it. It is especially dumb when Russia has their own system ringed around every major city!!!!

If you ever back down to the Russians they will eat it up and keep going for more. Stand strong and they will back right down off their high horse.

a reply to: jajaja

Russian weapons in Ukraine, are made in Ukraine. Not any more though

Most of what Ukraine uses are left overs from the Warsaw pact countries, because they export what they make.

Mr. Clark said in a report that Ukraine needs former Soviet bloc countries to provide T-72 tanks and anti-tank weapons, yet the state-owned Ukrainian Defense Industry produces and tries to sell anti-armor weapons and makes its own main battle tank, the T-84.

“What Ukrainian experts point to more often is that Ukrainian arms firms, which make perfectly good tanks, export them all for tons of money, leaving the Ukrainian military with T-62s,” said Steven Woehrel of the Congressional Research Service.

Ken Allard, a retired Army officer and military analyst, said Ukraine’s 1991 independence from the Soviet Union made it a de facto demilitarized zone between Poland and Russia.

“Ukraine was cast adrift from both Russian military and from NATO,” he said. “So where could they go for a future role model?”

He added, “About all they had on hand militarily was mostly obsolete equipment inherited from the Warsaw Pact. Romania and Poland, in contrast, used their partnership with NATO to modernize and upgrade their forces to NATO standards. In Bosnia, for example, I served with both the Polish and Romanian contingent. They were ferociously determined to put things right, almost the way we were after Vietnam.”

www.washingtontimes.com...

So it seems they still use weapons from the soviet union that were first used by Warsaw Pact countries, so obviously they aren't making weapons in Ukraine for their military.

Ukraine is not our friend, they even steal the Gas we Europeans paid for.

Have any proof of that or did you just pull that out of the hat, because if Europe didn't like Ukraine and see a future why would they be asked to join the EU, as I am sure it takes a majority vote to bring in other countries .

Explosions heard for a 2nd night near the port of Mariupol in eastern Ukraine - @SkyNewsbreak