The Temple of the Condor, INCA Masterpiece or SOMETHING ELSE?

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: JamesTB

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: JamesTB

originally posted by: Hanslune
James if you are looking for a lost civilization look for its habitation sites. Constantly trying to say that the work of another culture really belongs to a much earlier one just doesn't work.

Here is a question to ponder; how did this ancient lost civilization just happen to hit upon the exact same building styles as the Inca were using - and were seen by the Spanish to be doing so?

The fringe answer: The Inca were copying the examples they saw

The follow on question, then why is their no sign of this civilization - why are its only monuments associated with the Incan Empire and that stone work with a particular tribe that was conquered by the Inca and used by them to do their best work?

Look show us the tools! Otherwise you just have a theory that doesn't stand up to practical scrutiny.

Nope so you can deny it? Not going to work instead why don't you show us the tools the lost civilization used to make the stones. Trying to change the burden of proof ain't gonna work James....lol

Now go back and answer the question put to you please.

Ha! The tools to do that job don't exist and you know it.

Trying to shift the burden of proof isn't going to work James, lol

Why do you want us to show you the tools, you've already deny they exist or work so you would have already extensively studied them and THEN shown how they don't work.

Please show us that work please.

Or show us the tools you said the advance civilization used......also go back and answer the question I asked earlier - I'm not going to forget it.

You see this is the crux of the whole argument.

I'm saying that the tools to do the work found in Peru do not exist in the archeological record so something else must have been used. You're saying the tools did exist but you can't show us them.

I don't know how they did this work how many more times do I have to say that? But you say you do know how they were made but then you just come up with implausible theories. If you know the tools they used then show us them so we can determine for ourselves whether to believe you or not. If you can't then your theories carry no more or no less weight than mine do.

originally posted by: JamesTB


You see this is the crux of the whole argument.

I'm saying that the tools to do the work found in Peru do not exist in the archeological record so something else must have been used. You're saying the tools did exist but you can't show us them.

We can show them to you but that brings up a question why have you not done the research to find them yourself - I mean you have researched this subject haven't you? It takes about 5 seconds to find incan stone working tools on google - but you haven't done that/ Why?

I don't know how they did this work how many more times do I have to say that?

Then how can you deny the Inca did it with tools you say you've never seen or studied?

But you say you do know how they were made but then you just come up with implausible theories.

No my friend you come up with implausible theories - a lost civilization for which absolutely no evidence exists and you reject-without doing research the evidence seen by the Spanish and the generations of scientists.

If you know the tools they used then show us them so we can determine for ourselves whether to believe you or not. If you can't then your theories carry no more or no less weight than mine do.

....but you've already rejected them remember? lol

Also you have not told us by what way and manner you are qualified or knowledgeable to determine tool usage.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: JamesTB


You see this is the crux of the whole argument.

I'm saying that the tools to do the work found in Peru do not exist in the archeological record so something else must have been used. You're saying the tools did exist but you can't show us them.

We can show them to you but that brings up a question why have you not done the research to find them yourself - I mean you have researched this subject haven't you? It takes about 5 seconds to find incan stone working tools on google - but you haven't done that/ Why?

I don't know how they did this work how many more times do I have to say that?

Then how can you deny the Inca did it with tools you say you've never seen or studied?

But you say you do know how they were made but then you just come up with implausible theories.

No my friend you come up with implausible theories - a lost civilization for which absolutely no evidence exists and you reject-without doing research the evidence seen by the Spanish and the generations of scientists.

If you know the tools they used then show us them so we can determine for ourselves whether to believe you or not. If you can't then your theories carry no more or no less weight than mine do.

....but you've already rejected them remember? lol

Also you have not told us by what way and manner you are qualified or knowledgeable to determine tool usage.

How can I reject something that you haven't showed me?

Show us the saws or admit it's just another one of your theories.

a reply to: JamesTB

But don't you see? You are suggesting both mythical tools and mythical origins. Which unfortunately can not be defined.

And yet we know copper saws exist as well as chisels anf that they work. I've no idea if they have found copper saws in SA (Hans or Harte can no doubt answer that) but it's actually unimportant as a saw is a logical intuitive tool to make, the earliest being make of flint.

So is it not logical they they would have made them out of copper?

Even if no saws have been found in SA that's still way more in support of saws than, well, "something but i dunno what" which is all you have really.

ETA: by their nature the saws will grind away until they are no longer of the right dimensions to be any use, obviously recycling would be the fate of all but the accidentally lost.

originally posted by: skalla
a reply to: JamesTB

But don't you see? You are suggesting both mythical tools and mythical origins. Which unfortunately can not be defined.

And yet we know copper saws exist as well as chisels anf that they work. I've no idea if they have found copper saws in SA (Hans or Harte can no doubt answer that) but it's actually unimportant as a saw is a logical intuitive tool to make, the earliest being make of flint.

So is it not logical they they would have made them out of copper?

Even if no saws have been found in SA that's still way more in support of saws than, well, "something but i dunno what" which is all you have really.

ETA: by their nature the saws will grind away until they are no longer of the right dimensions to be any use, obviously recycling would be the fate of all but the accidentally lost.

There are tons and tons of Inca artifacts and if these saws existed then they would be there for us all to see but they aren't and I suspect that they never existed at all but I sure you can prove me wrong so go ahead the floor is yours show us the saws.

a reply to: skalla

Hey Skalla

The Inca had Bronze too just not copper. There is evidence that bronze axes were used on softer stones but for the hard work they used sand and elbow grease. They also made bronze crowbars which they used to move heavy stones around - these were called Champis.

originally posted by: JamesTB

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: JamesTB


You see this is the crux of the whole argument.

I'm saying that the tools to do the work found in Peru do not exist in the archeological record so something else must have been used. You're saying the tools did exist but you can't show us them.

We can show them to you but that brings up a question why have you not done the research to find them yourself - I mean you have researched this subject haven't you? It takes about 5 seconds to find incan stone working tools on google - but you haven't done that/ Why?

I don't know how they did this work how many more times do I have to say that?

Then how can you deny the Inca did it with tools you say you've never seen or studied?

But you say you do know how they were made but then you just come up with implausible theories.

No my friend you come up with implausible theories - a lost civilization for which absolutely no evidence exists and you reject-without doing research the evidence seen by the Spanish and the generations of scientists.

If you know the tools they used then show us them so we can determine for ourselves whether to believe you or not. If you can't then your theories carry no more or no less weight than mine do.

....but you've already rejected them remember? lol

Also you have not told us by what way and manner you are qualified or knowledgeable to determine tool usage.

How can I reject something that you haven't showed me?

Show us the saws or admit it's just another one of your theories.

Again you keep saying my theories and for the last time they are not MY theories - try and get that right....it would help to know that you are paying attention

So you appear to have done some study on Incan tools, so what did you determine?

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: JamesTB

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: JamesTB


You see this is the crux of the whole argument.

I'm saying that the tools to do the work found in Peru do not exist in the archeological record so something else must have been used. You're saying the tools did exist but you can't show us them.

We can show them to you but that brings up a question why have you not done the research to find them yourself - I mean you have researched this subject haven't you? It takes about 5 seconds to find incan stone working tools on google - but you haven't done that/ Why?

I don't know how they did this work how many more times do I have to say that?

Then how can you deny the Inca did it with tools you say you've never seen or studied?

But you say you do know how they were made but then you just come up with implausible theories.

No my friend you come up with implausible theories - a lost civilization for which absolutely no evidence exists and you reject-without doing research the evidence seen by the Spanish and the generations of scientists.

If you know the tools they used then show us them so we can determine for ourselves whether to believe you or not. If you can't then your theories carry no more or no less weight than mine do.

....but you've already rejected them remember? lol

Also you have not told us by what way and manner you are qualified or knowledgeable to determine tool usage.

How can I reject something that you haven't showed me?

Show us the saws or admit it's just another one of your theories.

Again you keep saying my theories and for the last time they are not MY theories - try and get that right....it would help to know that you are paying attention

So you appear to have done some study on Incan tools, so what did you determine?

Stop dodging the question. Do you have proof that these saws existed?

originally posted by: JamesTB

Stop dodging the question. Do you have proof that these saws existed?

You keep dodging my questions and here is another one for you show US an Incan wood saw.

a reply to: JamesTB


I don't know if any pictures or finds exist, and i have spent the last 5 mins or so looking for pics via an image search. But can you provide pics of your suggestion or any finds?

With the saw we are talking about a tool that has existed as a fundamental part of the human tool kit for at least tens of thousands of years around the globe, just transformed into the technological capabilities of the time (ie made of copper). And copper will saw stone, there is no question that it cant unless one is just being wilfully ignorant. The fine-ness of cuts is beside the point really - precision is what master-crafters do day in, day out and refine that skill throughout a lifetime's practice.

Plus there are unfinished stones with hammer stone marks at Ollantaytambo:







Which puts one of your claims, about "no tool marks" to rest.

Source

So how were the rocks cut, shaped and finished then in your opinion James?

a reply to: skalla

I believe James was/is trying to play the "Incan saw gambit", however to more important things; lol

Howdy Skalla

Saws are a very important part of all early cultures, I know of no culture that didn't use them, even the Inuit had ice saws.

Inca Quarrying and stone working.

The above shows how you use stones to shape Inca style masonry.

Now there is a peculiar thing about saws in SA and with the Inca. We'll see if we can get James to come up with the answer.

a reply to: Hanslune

LOL, i borked my post, that was intended for James

originally posted by: skalla
a reply to: Hanslune

I don't know if any pictures or finds exist, and i have spent the last 5 mins or so looking for pics via an image search. But can you provide pics of your suggestion or any finds?

With the saw we are talking about a tool that has existed as a fundamental part of the human tool kit for at least tens of thousands of years around the globe, just transformed into the technological capabilities of the time (ie made of copper). And copper will saw stone, there is no question that it cant unless one is just being wilfully ignorant. The fine-ness of cuts is beside the point really - precision is what master-crafters do day in, day out and refine that skill throughout a lifetime's practice.

Plus there are unfinished stones with hammer stone marks at Ollantaytambo:

Which puts one of your claims, about "no tool marks" to rest.

Source

So how were the rocks cut, shaped and finished then in your opinion James?

Haha are you actually reading this thread? I don't know how that's what I'm trying to find out!

Also those photos do not show hammer stone marks in my opinion they show the marks left by an unknown tool.

a reply to: JamesTB

This is where we get circular, show us the tool as by your logic we need to see it.

The saw has logic and history on it's side.

a reply to: JamesTB

And this is why it hopeless to show evidence to a pre-denier of all evidence

lol

Also those photos do not show hammer stone marks in my opinion they show the marks left by an unknown tool.

What is your opinion based on James? What expertise do you have to make such a judgement?

Found an Incan wood saw yet?

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: JamesTB

And this is why it hopeless to show evidence to a pre-denier of all evidence

lol

Also those photos do not show hammer stone marks in my opinion they show the marks left by an unknown tool.

What is your opinion based on James? What expertise do you have to make such a judgement?

Found an Incan wood saw yet?

What are you talking about? You don't HAVE ANY evidence to show! Show us the saws or stop making stuff up to strengthen your argument.

originally posted by: skalla
a reply to: JamesTB

This is where we get circular, show us the tool as by your logic we need to see it.

The saw has logic and history on it's side.

Here is how it's suppose to work in fringe heaven

Scientific mined people put forth evidence

Fringe denies it and demands more evidence

Scientific mined people put forth evidence

Fringe denies it and demands more evidence

etc, etc....

originally posted by: JamesTB

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: JamesTB

And this is why it hopeless to show evidence to a pre-denier of all evidence

lol

Also those photos do not show hammer stone marks in my opinion they show the marks left by an unknown tool.

What is your opinion based on James? What expertise do you have to make such a judgement?

Found an Incan wood saw yet?

What are you talking about? You don't HAVE ANY evidence to show! Show us the saws or stop making stuff up to strengthen your argument.

Show us an Incan wood saw James

You don't HAVE ANY evidence to show!

Kinda refers to you doesn't it? lol

This thread is exactly why I tend to stay away from such threads. It's impossible to win a debate with those who are willfully ignorant.

originally posted by: JamesTB

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: JamesTB

originally posted by: Hanslune
James if you are looking for a lost civilization look for its habitation sites. Constantly trying to say that the work of another culture really belongs to a much earlier one just doesn't work.

Here is a question to ponder; how did this ancient lost civilization just happen to hit upon the exact same building styles as the Inca were using - and were seen by the Spanish to be doing so?

The fringe answer: The Inca were copying the examples they saw

The follow on question, then why is their no sign of this civilization - why are its only monuments associated with the Incan Empire and that stone work with a particular tribe that was conquered by the Inca and used by them to do their best work?

Look show us the tools! Otherwise you just have a theory that doesn't stand up to practical scrutiny.

Nope so you can deny it? Not going to work instead why don't you show us the tools the lost civilization used to make the stones. Trying to change the burden of proof ain't gonna work James....lol

Now go back and answer the question put to you please.

Ha! The tools to do that job don't exist and you know it.

It is obvious to me that the tooling to accomplish the work does exist as the work has been compled. Nor do straight lines and accurate arcs necessitate advanced machinery. An understanding of mathematics, some thread, ochre, and simple hand tools are all that is required to create them.

I am a mason/plasterer by trade and while I in no way would elevate my abilities to the level of the work seen at megakithic sites most people not familar with construction do not comprehend how much of it is accomplished still using simple tools. A suspended string with a weight on the end gives you an accurate vertical line. A string strecthed taut between two blocks on either end of a horizontal course gives an accurate line. A level can be easily devised from a cup of water.

When you spend enough time striking stones with a blunt object (in my case a steel hammer ) you learn how varieties of stones chip differently. The shaping of the stones by ancient cultures has always intrigued me but the accurate angles/arcs have never necessitated advanced mechinical technology.

Moving and placement of megalithic blocks by the same cultures does puzzle me..I am more inclined to blame said puzzlement on my own failings to correctly apply appropriate technological solutions from this terrestrial realm than attribute it to ethereal or extraterrestrial origination.