The second seal was closed by Augustine

The first and most prominent figure of the RC Church to truly found a Catholic doctrine for when war can be justified, was no doubt Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis or Augustine of Hippo (hippo means Horse in Latin) aka saint Augustine or saint Austin:

And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword.

St Augustine (354 - 430 AD) asserted that "peacefulness in the face of a grave wrong that could only be stopped by violence would be a sin. Defense of one's self or others could be a necessity, especially when authorized by a legitimate authority." (Wikipedia source). The Just War Doctrine isn't just something old that is now out of function, no, Augustine is still the most prominent reference in the Catholic Cathecism's policy on war and war ethics (what an oxymoron of a word), and at catholic.com we can read in their "primer on just war doctrine [...] to be of use to Americans evaluating conflicts in the war on terrorism" that:

www.catholic.com...

As long as Christianity remained a minority religion in the Roman Empire, it was not forced to put these insights together into a formal theory of when warfare could be used. But as Christianity grew predominant, more attention had to be devoted to this subject. By the time of Augustine (A.D. 354-430) the need for a theory of when warfare was just was keen, and Augustine provided one, crystallizing biblical principles into what is now known as just war doctrine. In the intervening centuries the theory has been refined, but its framework remains as he gave it.

A generation before Augustine was born, emperor Constantine (the Archer) had made the RC Church the main religion of the Roman Empire and transformed the church from a preacher in the street into a political world power, fit to swear in emperors and dictate kings and their subjects alike. Constantine the Great was the rider of the first, white horse. Augustine was the rider on the second one, the red horse. Thus the second seal was closed by Augustine of Hippo; the saint of killers.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim
My comments on the other thread still apply. War is accompanying plague,famine and death, instead of coming at distinct intervals.

Can I point out also, that the four horsemen appeared when the seals were opened, not when they were closed.
The opening of the seals is what makes it possible to read the scroll- or putting it another way, the breaking of the seals and opening of the scroll makes it possible for the events contained in the scroll to start happening.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

It strikes me as odd that you claim Augustine is the saint of killers, when actually, from your own sources, it seems he should be declared a saint of peace.

Did Rome or anyone else ever need a justification for war? They just did it when they felt like it. Augustine is saying, basically, "Now that the Church is listened to, in at least part of the world, we're telling you to stop this indiscriminate fighting. You can only do it based on certain moral conditions, NOT whenever you feel like it.

The Church's "just war" doctrine prevented wars, not created them.

a reply to: DISRAELI

My comments on the other thread still apply. War is accompanying plague,famine and death, instead of coming at distinct intervals.

"The Church" came offering peace and salvation first, war was wrought on those who survived the previous plagues that "The Church" purposely planted and those who refused that salvation or didn't comply with the new hierarchy that they brought with them.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I'm not really expecting you to understand how in order for the Lamb of God to being able to break the seven seals-- the scroll must first have been sealed. I'm not expecting that at all. But remember that the Lamb is opening this scroll in a (to John the Scribe atleast) future Heaven.

As I will demonstrate in this series, the text of Revelation 5 onwards a few chapters relates mainly to stages in Church (or perhaps rather Christendom) development. Following the foundation of the seven congregations in Revelation 2 and 3, and being followed by the decline of the Church and the evils of religion and politics/war (the seven trumpets). The seven vials towards the end of the book shows the judgement of the church and the beasts (kings of the world), before unveiling the true Messiah as a true descendant of Jesus to whom all the kings of this world must adhere to, who will fulfil everything in a lifetime and destroy what the Church and her dragonbred beasts used millennia to achieve.

I'm not expecting you to buy into or understand my way of seeing this. I would hope for an open mind though. Would that be too much to ask?

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
I'm not really expecting you to understand how in order for the Lamb of God to being able to break the seven seals-- the scroll must first have been sealed. I'm not expecting that at all. But remember that the Lamb is opening this scroll in a (to John the Scribe atleast) future Heaven.

The scroll was sealed by God. That's why there are seven seals, not five or six.
But you are drawing your images from a chapter which is about the opening of the seals, and clearly says so.

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Did Rome or anyone else ever need a justification for war?

The RC Church did. Augustine provided that framework. Until Augustine, the Church or Christianity had been but fugitives of war, they had never been in the position or need to take up arms themselves, and had until then been strictly non-violent living up to a live-and-let-live philosophy. But after Constantine the Great had made Catholicism the religion of the Roman Empire at Nicea, the Church was in a dire need at the time of Augustine for a framework or a doctrine for when war can be justified. Like I said, Augustine provided the foundation of such doctrine.

I call Augustine a saint of killers, since he is the one who basically handed the Pope his first sword, and turned the RC Church weapons grade, and justified certain kinds of murder, under given circumstances, thus helping killers to heaven so to speak.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

That is ISIS..

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: DISRAELI

My comments on the other thread still apply. War is accompanying plague,famine and death, instead of coming at distinct intervals.

"The Church" came offering peace and salvation first, war was wrought on those who survived the previous plagues that "The Church" purposely planted and those who refused that salvation or didn't comply with the new hierarchy that they brought with them.

Exactly. The seven seals shows the Church's seven step descent into utter disgrace from being the congregation of saints of Christ (seven congregations Revelation 2-3) to become a harlot drunk on the blood of saints and prophets (seven seals, Revelation 4-7), entertaining the kings of the world, laying the ground for their horrors of the 20th and 21st centuries (Revelation 8-14). Revelation 15-18 shows God's judgement over the Church and the beasts and the people who serve the beast. It's really quite straight forward in my opinion.

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

That is ISIS..

I'm afraid not. ISIL (or ISIS, now IS) is claiming authority over the Islamic world: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and recruits soldiers in the thousands from the former empires of the West. Now that's an obvious Beast in my opinion, atleast it's an honest attempt at raising one.

The Catholic Church has been against some wars by the U.S. Lately, most notably the Iraq war. I see the Just War Doctrine as limiting wars. Although it is still mentioned in the news these days.

a reply to: DISRAELI

One can determine the nature of the seven seals from the description of what happens when they are opened. Then one can take that nature, or potential energy, and make a guess when the seal was first sealed.

a reply to: darkbake
There's no real reason why the seals should have been added at any particular time.
All they do is stop the scroll from being unrolled beyond that point- that is, they stop the history from proceeding.
The image is just a way of visualising the point that the progress of these events was only possible because "the Lamb had been slain" (the crucifixion) in the previous chapter. If anything, that shows that the seals must have been on the scroll before the crucifixion.

a reply to: darkbake

Yes, nowadays it is only used as a tool for deciding whether the Papal Church condones or condemns the given war. But the rule was originally made as a means for justifying aggression. You might say the Church has gone soft now that she balance at the edge of Hell. Or maybe they are trying to buy themselves into heaven?

These four horsemen seals show how the Catholic Church compromised major key principles of Jesus' preaching one by one. Firstly by kneeling and adhering to the Roman Empire. Secondly, justifying and waging wars by having kings and secular authorities commit their wars and acts of violence. Thirdly, demand taxes and use interest. Forth: Execute and condemn people to Hell for their wisdom and beliefs, and waging wars in the Holy Land against the people of Jesus himself.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Here I have written why and for what purpose it was sealed ==> www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: Utnapisjtim
Your suggestion in the linked post makes no sense, because Revelation existed as a known book, and the sealed scroll was part of that book, long before Constantine was born.
As I've just pointed out, the seals could not be broken until the Lamb had been crucified, which means they must have been in place before the Lamb was crucified.
Making things up as you go along is no substitute for systematic study.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
Your suggestion in the linked post makes no sense, because Revelation existed as a known book

My friend, have you got ANY understanding of the concept of oaths? And have you got ANY idea of the significance of having a copy of the original, perhaps THE original Apocalypse by Jochanan the Scribe? Like how the whole book was turned upside down by editing 10 into 60? Was it 616 or 666? Or who stands on the sand by the sea, the Dragon or the firstperson narrator-reader? Or to have the book in it's original language and format and exact wording?

Revelation as we have it here and now today is the most fragmented book of the Bible, there are so many inconsistencies between the different mss ranging from obvious additions and omissions to what was the true name of Jesus was, written in his own language by someone who knew him. What I wouldn't do to being able to study that book.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
And have you got ANY idea of the significance of having a copy of the original, perhaps THE original Apocalypse by Jochanan the Scribe?

Since you are making this all up as you go along, there is no reason why I should appreciate the significance of it.
Out of curiosity, do you think Enoch was right?

originally posted by: DISRAELI
Since you are making this all up

If 20 years of extensive research can be called making things up, then yes, I suppose I am making this up as I progress.

Out of curiosity, do you think Enoch was right?

I don't know. I assume you refer to Noah's granddad? How can we know whether he was right? He didn't write anything we can read today. Besides I don't usually judge books. I learn from every one I read. And what part of Enoch is to be right or wrong? Lipstick on a bear might make it pretty enough to kiss, but would you honestly ever kiss a bear?